Feedback: Paladin Hero Talents in The War Within

A first time for everything to get the Knight title as well… but the faith stuff is too much though as a comparison, a race could get a title added to their numerous ones, but to convert to another faith? I don’t find that believable.

Not sure if they’re concerned with title similarities though, i think i remember seeing some stuff similar to titles, Slayer was it? Possibly more… almost 2 am now and sleepy af. xD

Yes, good one!

P.S. I would prefer Inquisitor of Faith for the Holy-Ret hero talent title.

What? Why?

We’ve seen races that have converted from their traditional faiths.

I don’t think that’s unrealistic.

I feel like the term ‘Herald of the Sun’ is vague enough.

Regardless of whatever Light-based religion, there’s usually a heavy component of the Sun as a concept, even if not outright worshipped.

We have Draenei ‘Sunshields,’ Belves of course have the ‘Sunwell’ and other vaguely Sun-related imagery, Tauren of course worship the Sun outright, the Troll Loa Rezan whom the Zandalari paladins serve is also associated with the Sun.

I think the ‘Sun’ is often just used as a general association with a powerful force of The Light.

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Isn’t he like Omega dead? Like erased from existance dead? how are they still getting power from him?

No idea, Blizz has yet to give us an update on that iirc lol.

Edit: Looked into it, the official explanation is that they can just… still use his power even though he’s deleted from existence. They’re dedicated to serving Talaji now.

It’s like physics, everything that exists always exists in some forms somewhere. Energy not being able to be destroyed, but only transferred and changed.

We are paladins and we draw our faith from our racial beliefs… you don’t change that easily, that’s why it’s unrealistic.
A title added to numerous others that they already have for a race is not comparable.

Which is nonsense, Talanji isn’t even a Loa, that’s dumb/bad writing right there(i reserve the right to personally think that, you and others may disagree).
You don’t switch your faith from a god to a person, especially since that person isn’t even deified in their society, the king was the king, not their god, but the one who served their gods… their “messenger” so to say.

Anyway, you have a point here:

But Herald of the Sun… indicates the Sun itself, which is synonym with/actually An’she.

The biggest issue with this though is that it’s 4 words, would have been a lot better if it was Sun Herald instead of Herald of the Sun.

Bring on more new buttons! I always love a new button.
Def wanna try and see this for myself before I say I def want it reworked. It sounds fun and i’ve been loving the Blessing of Seasons gameplay this xpac.

Seriously let me try this out before you can it. I LOVE NEW BUTTONS!

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As someone who has made multiple posts about the class fantasy of Paladins, and considering we still have “Blessing of Seasons” as a Holy Talent … I doubt whoever is in charge of Paladins cares much for the naming of this talent tree, lol.

But with that being said, I don’t think “Lightbringer” or “Lightsworn” put enough emphasize on the Radiant aspect of it.

If the length of the name is too long, I’d maybe look more into the Val’kyr side of things and go with something more along the lines of “Sunborne.” ¯\ _ (ツ)_/¯

Or they couldjust copy one of the many ideas from this forums like give ret a big dr when divine shield or bop are removed early.

Raw dr on ds and physi /magic on bop/spellwarding

They also said something liek templar is focused on wake of ashes and that already makes me very concerned. Hell we might see radisnt decree return in some form

What I would like is templar paladin to work a lot more with cdrs. First cdr on WoA and maybe blessings? Cdr on freedom bop maybe buff LoH to do something else or maybe cleave.

I dont think templar really needs pure raw damage but building on the core support role of paladins would benefit ret the most. I like helping my teammates and dispensing holy strikes on enemies, please build on top of that

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Max from Liquid also thinks the design is crap

https://youtu.be/KQRw1Oe308M?si=q5Pwg5L6aXNBewwY

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You know… if the name should be long, they should name it like on that legendary: Radiance of the Sun
At least it’s not a generic Herald.

I like it for the most part. I think it’s cool thematically but I’d really like to it be passive or semi-targetable like Augmentation Evoker abilities.

I’m not upset by having to move over them to pick them up but there’s certain edge cases where picking them up could be detrimental, (landing a no-go AoE zone, targeting ceiling/ontop of doodad)

Just watched this.

TLDR

His initial reaction to what it did was positive.
He didn’t really comment on how it did it.

And then it went downhill as he looked at the rest of the talents to finally finish with something along the lines of “this needs to be completely redone”.

He made some side comments about how they should have adjusted the power of Holy from the past season as opposed to change how it plays.

He also reiterated that consecration is not fun.

Are some of you guys seriously debating the semantics of the name? :face_with_raised_eyebrow:

Honestly, who cares? After Shadowlands, lore may as well have been thrown out a window. Provide feedback on what matters.

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I really wish you were the blizz designer. this is such a better run down than what we got.

I dislike echoing what someone else’s take is but I had the same thoughts after viewing them last night. Max said that it completely needs reworking and… yeah it does. The nodes are so incredibly underwhelming, playing inside consecration SUCKS.
I love the idea of a paladin throwing light weapons to allies and aiding in damage that way, a light smith does sound cool… but this current take of it is not hitting the mark for gameplay. Glad they are releasing these in chunks. Sounds more like a profession though.
The weapon imbues straight up suck. That’s something you get while leveling like flametongue weapon. Not a hero talent.

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I think a significantly better version of this would be, yeah, scrapping it. It’s not a knee-jerk response to something I don’t think I would like: I know for certain that I won’t like it.

Reticles suck.

Forcing players to memorize what your class does as well as their own sucks.

Asking players to move around to pick up stuff sucks when current game design is based around using movement to disrupt gameplay.

It needs a total overhaul or it won’t see play, which means that Holy and Prot will simply be forced into Herald of the Sun or Templar, respectively, simply because they don’t want to deal with Lightsmith.

If the idea is that the Lightsmith is a Lightforged-themed Green Lantern creating physical objects of light then yeah that’s neat, but your implementation sucks.

It would be a lot more sensible to tie it to healing, something that both Prot and Holy provide a good amount of, and auras, an iconic Paladin feature. You also don’t need two rotating effects on an active - adding more buttons sucks when button bloat is already as bad as it is.

Don’t overthink it. Heal an ally, empower their weapon and armor. Tying it to any targeted healing makes it easy and intuitive for a healer to manage, and tying it to healing means that a tank can use it with free WoD casts (side note: reduce the mana cost of tank heals by like 10% across the board, you went kind of wild.)

You know what players would love? If holding a light weapon increased melee range by 3 yards, and if wearing light armor increased movement speed by 3%. These are minor buffs that have huge quality of life ramifications for players and will actually be something desirable for most content.

Have the weapon explode and deal light damage, and have the armor grant an absorb shield while active. Give players both buffs, and have the weapon explosion damage be tied to the amount of shield left. If the shield gets used up it deals no damage, if it persists it pops. Similar to Ret’s Shield of Vengeance but tied to attacks and abilities.

This is boring, yes, but it gives players control over how much damage it provides. If they dodge well and avoid damage, then they do more damage. It is effectively a skill-based mechanic that performs better if you do, meaning it’s perfect for push content, where Paladin excels.

If you want to spice it up a bit (and you do,) then borrow from Aura Mastery and tie it to your active aura.

Devotion Aura causes players to heal while they have the shield active.

Concentration Aura causes players to cast while moving with the shield active (wow, a use for the least used aura?)

Retribution Aura causes players to gain leech while the shield is active.

Crusader Aura causes players to gain movement speed and avoidance while the shield is active (a reason to use Crusader Aura in a raid?)

To keep it within the intended bounds of having it apply to roughly 3 players at a time, just give players a debuff similar to Forbearance bound to the Paladin. Healers don’t need more things to track, and a 20s ticking debuff is about as much as you should reasonably ask for players to look at. Even then players can just ignore it and allow it to end up wherever if they’re not playing push content where it matters.

Final note, make Lay on Hands always apply the Lightsmith buff if you’re going to insist on building around it. This makes it possible for 4/5 players to have it up in a mythic during emergency moments and gives the Paladin the true “turning the tide” class fantasy the game tries to sell us on.

So to recap:

  • Combine the weapon and armor buff into a single armaments buff
  • Apply the buff to a target with any direct healing spell (and correct the change to tank mana, which sucks)
  • The buff lasts for 20 seconds, and grants the target 3% movement speed and 3 yards increased range on attacks
  • Any player gaining the buff gets a Forebearance-style debuff to auto-manage group limitations for the Paladin, and Lay on Hands ignores this limitation and always applies or reapplies the buff regardless of active debuffs/count
  • The Lightsmith’s aura grants additional effects while the buff is active: Devotion has passive healing over time, Concentration allows movement while casting, Retribution grants leech, Crusader grants movement speed and avoidance.
  • If the shield persists for its full duration, then when it ends the player grants a buff and deals Holy damage on their next attack or ability within x seconds based on the % of shield that was left when it ended. If the shield pops early the benefits are lost.

Blizzard, I am telling you right now that if all a person has to do is direct heal someone and sometimes swap aura this will be a big success. The current version sounds horrible.

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That’s beside the point but I just read the description of Divine Steed again for the first time since Legion and I got a little triggered by the “LEAP atop your charger”…

I kind of twitched in my chair a little.

For the rest, you’re right they don’t have the fantasy down, which makes it harder to develop those.

As I said previously, they need to rework the class tree, it’s broken.
And knowing that, I don’t know how feasible it is to develop the Hero Talents before they’ve done that.

It’s like building on top of a late game Jenga tower.

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If Tempar or the other Ret accessible hero tree buffs damage, thats cool. Out current tier set and poor scaling has us last in damage for raid. Could fix the scaling and that would correct being a damage loss to have Ret in raid. I am somewhat holding out hope that either the defensive removal protection you mentioned happens, or some additional defensive for crowd control. Simply adding damage totally can fix the raid performance problem, but right now it seems for me, suffering crowd control and survivability due to that cc is a more pressing problem. Since retribution is very low on the dealing crowd control spectrum, and has no mortal strike or disarm, being a slowest and having just barely ok damage isn’t really working.

sicne this thread went off the rails imma just ask for ret buffs

please buff the following talents to make us effectively cleave/aoe/ better in st and st in aoe better

divine purpose from 10% to 20% both proc and damage
expurgation: 51 ap to 71ap
adjudication: 5% crit damage to 10% crit damage and blessing hammer 19 ap to 30 ap
blade of justice buffed 93ap to 110ap
burning crusade: 5% to 10%
divine arbitor cleave from 75% ap to 90ap
seething flames 145ap to 170ap
truths wake 120ap to 135ap

pelase and thank you

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