Then you understood nothing of what I said.
I won’t repeat myself.
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this will never happen and arguing that it “could” happen is pointless and dumb. i beg you, i beg alot of people here to actually play and look at the specs you play deeper than skin deep.
this, again. these are valid and theorycrafted reasons against how this “hypothetical” wouldnt be much of a issue either
stop tryign to give legitimacy to people who dont like wake for some reason
No I understand, you are just not realizing that you are wrong about this. Nothing to really say since that is the case. You are not fully comprehending the fact that they have to -directly- nerf wake of ashes in the tier set to move ret paladins away from taking it, do hero talents stop them from doing that? sure, but hero talents or not they would literally never do that to begin with. That is what you are not understanding.
I litteraly just said that wasn’t the point.
This is dumb. I’m done for the night.
They locked the Spec to WoA.
I don’t even mind and I’m fine with it.
Arguing that doing this doesn’t reduce the design space around the other capstone is willful ignorance.
Take your head out of the sand.
You don’t respond like you did
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we understood what you said, its just pointless fearmongering that will never happen. what me and others have described is a pure rework of the spec again in terms of talent changes to push us to a point that we’ll never take wake. this again wont happen since blizzard showed that they are very happy with how ret ended up. i also want to highlight this
stop fearmongering and trying to make non issues into issues with fake scenarios
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Let me make it very very clear in a few sentences:
Hero talents revolving around wake does -not- limit the developers creativity with tier sets in any single way at all. If you look at s2 and s3 tier set, neither revolved around Wake and we still took Wake, because it interacts with our spec overall. They can make any tier set they want, one that doesn’t involve wake at all, and we will -still- take wake of ashes because it is easy to pick up and one of our best generators. You listed multiple scenarios where they force us into 4-5 talents via a tier set and I still gave you ways to take Wake in both of those scenarios, one being entirely unrealistic anyway. It is something we will always be taking, regardless of tier set, unless they nerf it into the ground which obviously is not happening, the opposite is happening where it is getting stronger.
The unrealistic scenario btw is where you said what if we want both FR nodes+DA+SL, meaning you were thinking of opting out of Wake of ashes (30 second cd, 3 hopo gen) for a talent that makes FR gen 3 hopo. If you wanted to pick that up over Wake, you’d be losing a 30 second cd 3 hopo gen for a 1 minute cd 3 hopo gen talent. Not happening anyway even if FR was insane, but if you wanted to take it like I said earlier you can take all of that.
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I’m not fearmongering.
It’s a fact that what they did lock them out of designing around the other capstone at least for the next expansion.
I’m not mad about it, I enjoy WoA.
But it’s not f**** fearmongering to recognize it and mention they have to be careful with that jeez.
I don’t know what makes you guys throw a fit because someone is pointing out the obvious.
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Brother what is happening with your thoughts here lol. They can’t design around Searing light or Divine arbiter or Final reckoning because the hero talent tree is based on Wake of ashes? Do you actually see what you are typing? It literally, objectively, will not stop them from designing around any of the capstones. They can make a tier set revolving around both DA and SL, we still pick up wake and even truths wake or flames. I don’t know how this is so hard to understand. Do you not realize you have enough points to flex a lot of the capstones around via middle tree and 1 from upper tree?
Do you not realize we take Wake of ashes in both AoE and ST builds right now? Do you also not realize you are creating fake scenarios to pretend this is an issue despite the fact blizzard will not be designing a tier set around both DA and SL at the same time because they want one to be AoE centric and one to be ST centric? And even if they did, you could still go both sides+wake? You are completely missing the point, which is no matter what they build the tier set around we can -still- get wake of ashes. No-matter-what. Even if they created a tier set involving DA, SL and FR at the same time like you asked earlier.
Nobody is throwing a fit, just correcting the fact that you are not pointing out anything obvious, you are pointing out nothing as what you are saying is objectively wrong. Thats all it is.
OMG
Are you familiar with “opportunity cost” concept at all?
If you put points into WoA, can you put them somewhere else?
NO
Is it that hard to understand?
Everyone understand you wouldn’t not take WoA now.
Hero talents makes it so you can’t not take it.
It’s a difference worth pointing out, if anything but to just warn them to be careful with that.
Because it’s fine when it’s something we like, but they could have done this with something we don’t
Simmer on that.
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no one is throwing a fit at all. we’re legit just giving you actual reasons why your potential “scenario” wouldnt work orpush us away from wake of ashes and how no one painted themselves into a corner.
BYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAalSrkUKNJKRkWkAAAAAAAAAAAAAKpkQgIEQBAA
wake of ashes is still there nothing has changed.
what in this tree is stronger to put the point into instead of wake?
this is literally pointless. cause this is like you said the “best situation”
omg they made hero talents designed around final verdict so now we CANT not take it. horrible…truly
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Might be the most dense, hard headed conversation I’ve had on here with someone. Insane actually. You just straight up don’t realize that taking that point from wake makes no sense to do because you can GET EVERYTHING you would want+wake itself. Are you actually arguing you would spec out of wake for something above it instead? My god. Yes we are locked into wake of ashes, it doesn’t matter because WE WOULD TAKE IT ANYWAY. the choice to opt out of it is literally fake, ffs. No it is not worth bringing up that we are locked into wake, we -already- are.
Where are you putting the Wake point then? Explain to me where you are putting this point that is apparently so important to move around.
Lets say you have a tier set focusing on final reckoning, Divine arbiter and Searing Light, 3 major capstones, won’t happen but lets say thats the case. You don’t want wake of ashes. What are you doing with the point? You already have Final reckoning picked up, Executioners will, Divine arbiter row and Searing Light row. Where is wake going? If its so important that we keep this point a choice, where would you put it in this scenario?
Edit 3: “Because it’s fine when it’s something we like, but they could have done this with something we don’t” Sure and if they did we’d be discussing it but that is not the case here and is not what we are discussing, we are discussing being ‘locked into’ wake. They didn’t pick something we don’t like, so we don’t need to worry about it or ‘warn them’, stressing out over something that is not happening is a bit wild.
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You and me both.
No you can’t.
You can’t take all the nodes in the bottom parts.
The fact that you think that’s what I’m saying just confirms you don’t understand the design problem I’m pointing at.
If you take all Wake node (regardless of how good it is, that’s not what this is about), it means you’re putting an X on some other nodes.
Designing the Hero talent around Wake alone locks that in.
“Wouldn’t do it” becomes “can’t do it” because you literally cannot use the Hero talent without Wake.
It’s a restriction going forward, that’s not an opinion.
It’s a fact, the talent point is locked now.
Its ludicrous that you’re trying to convince anyone it’s not.
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BYEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAalSrkUKNJKRkWkAAAAAAAAAAAAAKpkQgIEQBAA you 100% can. if you pick divine aux over wake of ashes then unironically sus.
you are failing to understand that there was never a choice. you are failing to understand or even address our points in general. post talent tree code in wowhead or something and see you can absolutely can grab everything in bottom row while still grabbing wake of ashes as a core ability
Talent point has been locked, thats why it does not matter that they designed both hero trees around it. They will never design a tier set around all of the bottom nodes regardless, it is an unrealistic hypothetical that is 100% guaranteed to not happen so even thinking about discussing the possibility is what makes the argument on your end bad. Your entire argument is about a “what if” scenario that will just never happen, there is not even a small 0.1% chance of it happening.
They can design a tier set around DA and SL, and we can still take wake. They can design a tier set around FR/DA and we can still take wake. They will never design a tier set around every single bottom node, so it does not limit the creativity with designing a tier set around the other bottom capstone nodes because they would not do more than 1 at a time, 2 maximum.
In every single build we have now, whether its aoe or ST or both, we take Wake. There is a raid build right now where you can take the DA row, SL row and 1 point in FR or ES, and you still grab Wake+seething flames.
There are bottom nodes that are worse than Wake, and choosing them over Wake (like divine aux) is just bad, there is no choice here right now on live servers. Hero talents don’t change that.
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Oh yeah totally took Divine auxiliary there… 
And I guess that “You can’t take ALL the talents in the bottoms part” means something different for you because we have 10 points and there is 13 nodes…
Again, not the point I was making but it’s becoming redundant to point it out.
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Lmao, he didn’t take divine auxiliary because if you ‘choose’ that you literally are ‘choosing’ between 1 minute 3 hopo generator and 30 second 3 hopo generator. You have to be kidding me. You take wake in that scenario 100% of the time, it is not a choice. Generate 3 hopo in 1 min or 6 hopo in 1 min+do damage, hmmmm. You do not understand the spec, that is the conclusion i’m starting to come to.
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again, your pickign a talent that generates 3 hopo on a 1min cd with fr. vs a talent that generates 3 hopo and does a ton of damage by itself.
you cant just point at it and go “OHHHH YOU DIDNT TAKE A WORSE TALENT!!!@ CLOWOWN EMOJI” yes i will TOTALLY pick a worse talent over wake of ashes because i HAVE A CHOICEEEE
not gonna lie, your point is honestly not worth making or address after all the reasoning your refusing to understand.
i honestly think you dont understand the spec more than skin deep
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In a hypothetical scenario where you don’t take Wake, you would.
That means FR and ES would be buffed with like , Idk, 50% CD reduction on them maybe some other things, you might want to have a 3HP over Wake, effectively replacing it entirely.
But then again it goes back to you guys being able to “imagine” scenarios where “we wouldn’t want WoA”, which I realize now might have been a tall order to ask of you both.
My bad, I didn’t realize you were not able to.
I’ll be more specific as to how next time.
Not like everything is possible in a video game right? 
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You are imagining scenarios for actually no reason, you can discuss hypotheticals but they need to remain realistic, you have gone very far away from that. Hypothetical scenarios do not matter if they do not exist, and the ones you are discussing do not and will not exist. It is extremely ridiculous to tell people they lack imagination because they are arguing against invented hypothetical scenarios that are not happening and will not happen.
“you guys dont get it!! what if in this impossible hypothetical scenario they want to design a tier set around 5 capstone abilities but they cant because we are locked into wake??? guys you are stupid for not imaging this. oh you linked me a talent tree taking everything aside from divine auxiliary?? well that means you cant take every capstone clown and have Wake you clown!!!”
yeah bud, in a hypothetical scenario where you don’t take wake, which does not need to exist because you can get everything you want+wake, you would take divine auxiliary. Do you know what kind of hypothetical situation would need to happen for that to be the case? wake would have to not exist or be nerfed very hard.
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so in this hypothetical scenario, we dont have brains??
okay lets say fr has a 50% cd reduction. okay you have 3 hopo every 30 seconds. but where is the damage?? fr doesnt nearly do as much damage as baseline wake and would need to be buffed by 300% base damage to make it competative.
es is 15 seconds, okay but again same issue. where is the damage? the 3 hopo is fine but your intentionally gimping es by not takign advantage of its 30% ramp rate. es doesnt do damage on its own and will never do damage on its own considering mechanics like raz shield exist and is the reason why its tooltip damage was taken to begin with
what your suggest is incredibly unrealistic. the buffs i highlighted again required rework levels of work and changes to make wake unviable to take. your hypothetical is pointless fearmonging to give legitimacy to a issue that doesnt exist. hypothetical situations have to be extremely realistic and what your saying isnt.
weve indulged this drool inducing “hypothetical situations” enough and even helped you with how these “situation” would happen and it always requires extremes amount of changes to the capstones and large buffs and rework to specific nodes.
im curious to see how you will make your theoretical situation work. give us a example how you would make wake unviable to take.
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