Depends on what they replace it with at the end tree. If they actually use their imagination and create a new skill or mechanic there i would spec that, if not it depends on how a spec redesign looks like.
For players in practical terms it is.
From how its designed in the tree it isnât.
Is it a problem for 99% of Ret?
No.
We all widely recognize its value.
But making this kind of shortcut can undermine us in the long run.
What if at some point they make a set that works under the assumption that we donât take this specific bottom branch (somehow)?
You might be saying âWell they wouldnât do that, they know that we have to take it at the bottomâ
And then, just like that, it became restrictive, its not that they wouldnât, they canât.
They painted themselves in a corner.
They might like to design something that doesnât requires us to take this branch at the end but now they canât because the Hero talent they created hinges on it.
They tied their hands.
The good news is that, even if were to come to this, they can just change it then and it wouldnât matter.
The only people who have a REAL problem with this are those NOT using Wake at all (go figure).
If they canât take a clue with these Hero talents then maybe Ret is not for them.
When Hero talents was an idea shared with players, months before we saw what the Hero Trees were, players said, If hero talents empower something we already like to press, thatâs great. So the Devs gave us what many players asked for. It really doesnt matter if Ret Hero talents require WoA, Judgment, or BoJ. We are using them, they are manditory abilities unless you want to opt out of a huge portion of potential damage. There was no âpaint themselves into a cornerâ because their income is not derived from your opinion.
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I donât think they could design a single tier set that stops ret from taking Wake. They can design tier sets that donât interact with it as much and it wouldnât matter weâd still take it. No matter what they do for tier it will interact with Wake because Wake is one of our best generators to begin with and that provides value to many other buttons we press.
Regardless of hero talent trees there is nothing they can do short of making Wake extremely weak that would move us away from it. It doesnât stop them from designing unique tier sets either because again, Wake interacts with all of our strongest buttons by virtue of being a good generator. They donât need to revolve it around Wake at all, look at our current tier set, it is all about judgment and BoJ+a bit of FV and DS, nothing about wake but we still take it. This is not a concern.
Edit: Oh the other reason why this doesnât matter is that there is no reason to drop wake. They can design a tier set around other talents in the tree and weâd just take them+wake as there is really not much we lose overall. For example we play wake in our ST talent builds and in our AoE talent builds because it is easy to take. it will always be present no matter what post rework unless crazy nerfs happen. The talents you can move around are truths wake and maybe in the future decorating flames, but Wake itself will not be dropped regardless of what the tier set is.
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It absolutely does, if at some point my opinion becomes that the spec I like to play is âpoorlyâ designed, I might not give them any more money.
Does that cross that threshold? No. They would need to screw things up big time and on many things.
But they absolutely can paint themselves in a corner, they did before.
Does those hero talent do it by themselves? Yes and no
Itâs like a line of paint you can just jump over⌠
I donât think itâs a problem as long as the other Hero Talent coming in the future are horizontal progressions and donât add up on top of each other.
No matter what the opinion is what you said here is just incorrect. âThey painted themselves in a corner.
They might like to design something that doesnât requires us to take this branch at the end but now they canât because the Hero talent they created hinges on it.â this is still extremely incorrect.
Do you know our current tier set is not designed around wake at all but wake is still taken? Did you see our season 2 tier set not designed around wake at all but mostly HoW and spenders? Having hero talent trees focus on wake does not limit their creativity with tier sets, they can make a tier set around every ability but wake if they wanted to and weâd still take wake because it interacts with our spec as a whole. Hero talents do not stop them from doing anything with tier, that should be clear.
I am curious how they will do tier sets since if they make a tier set focused on Hammer of Light, it would possibly push Herald out of the way. They could also unintentionally make you go herald or templar by making a tier set around buttons that benefit herald more than templar or vice versa. That could be a concern, but again wake has nothing to do with anything we will take it no matter what the tier is, doesnât limit their creativity.
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Oh wow, youâve proven that Ativision/Blizzard and now Microsoft would go bankrupt without your 6-month sub fee. Many apologies sir. They better have the devs cater to your every wish so the rest of the world has the chance to play wow.
Now back to reality and something important. I hope Hero talent debuffs/dots are not dispellable or Ret wont have much use for either Hero talent tree in PvP.
BINGO! thats correct. Solid Hero talents that enable more damage from using WoA do nothing to restrict a Tier set from augmenting any other ability we use. While a Tier set could be used to augment an ability granted by a hero talent, they would not make the tier set only function with one hero tree. I also dont expect hero tree abilities to be affected in anyway by tier sets in the next expantion. Certainly a bit of worry about nothing there. âWhat if they changed the animation for Steed to being an actual wheelchair!?â Well they wont, dont worry.
Ok and?
Youâre saying that because you canât imagine a scenario where what I said applies it makes what I said incorrect?
I donât think itâs that hard to imagine, sorry.
It would only take something that affects FR/ES making us take all their nodes while still wanting both DA and SL.
Something like reducing the CD of FR and messing around with the damage type in such a way that you proc both capstone.
If they make the game bad enough, yes thatâs how it works.
I donât know why youâre acting snarky all of a sudden Dekard.
You can take FR and both FR nodes and still take Wake. You can drop Truths wake and decorating flames worst case scenario, or you can drop a couple towards the middle/top like expurgation (which we only take due to current tier) and Divine Wrath. Lots of options there that donât involve dropping Wake, and that is because Wake will and can fit into every build possible.
What if they make you want to take both SL and DA?
Like, they REALLY lean into it, what then?
they want you to take DA both FR bottoms nodes and SL. What then?
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Off the top of my head for the first paragraph you could drop Divine Wrath, truths wake and decorating flames as worst case. Or you can drop divine wrath, expurgation (which we likely wont take with no tier around it) and truths wake or flames.
Taking Divine arbiter, Searing Light and all FR bottom nodes wonât happen, that would be an extremely convoluted tier set and they will not make one that focuses on buffing Final reck+divine arbiter+searing light all in one. That would also force paladins into FR instead of having a choice between ES and FR. Iâd try to be actually realistic about this, you can see what kind of tier sets they design and that doesnât happen. However, you could drop Truths Wake, Decorated flames, highlords judgment and expurgation to grab all of those and still have Wake.
I agree I donât think it will.
What if it does though?
I answered that question.
Right, so Iâm not incorrect.
You are, in fact, able to imagine a such a scenario where it can happen.
You donât think it will, which is a different thing than me being incorrect about it.
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relying on hypotheticals to justify a point isnt a good way to justify a point.
blizzard would have to personally and purposefully make a tier set that absolutely avoids wake of ashes branch. to do this, they will have to buff DA row and ES row by a solid margin and make a set that buffs searing light row only. this would be a insane amount of work, extremely convoluted, and frankly would be comparable to another rework of ret paladin. its not realistic to make feedback or assumptions based on the .00001% chance of this happening. if it does, then we adapt and fight against it with feedback, weve have before with the con tierset in df beta and we can do it again
i cant stress how strong wake of ashes is compared to these other capstones in all accounts.
if i can qoute taels entire post i would because he has it on the nose on how that hypothetical would be impossible. there is legit no reason to never take wake ever, nor is there a reason blizzard shouldnt make more power based on wake since everyone shoudl take it.
this this this
that would be a complete redesign on fr and es as a whole, this has such a smal lchance on happening that any sane person will assume it will never happen. these are poor examples from poor feelycrafting.
if you use this logic, then might as well not design any future player power.
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Okay iâm not here to argue over semantics thats ridiculous but you are incorrect about saying their creativity is limited, that is what I was saying was incorrect, I quoted that part specifically. It does not hinder or limit their creativity as they can straight up create any tier set around any ability or abilities they want and you can still take Wake, similar to how it is right now or in S2 where neither of these tier sets focused on Wake at all.
Also your example in taking both nodes below FR but trying to drop wake for it would somehow mean you value a 1 minute 3 hopo generator over a 30 second hopo generator which is obviously not true either, so if it came down to taking FR nodes+DA+SL you would just not take the 3 hopo FR node and take Wake instead (assuming you couldnât take wake alongside all of those which you can).
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My point isnât that they would.
Itâs that they canât, because of where they put WoA and itâs importance.
And in that sense they ARE painting themselves in a corner somewhat.
(Like I said more of a line you can step over)
The point is they wouldnât, I donât think you understand what he means by purposefully avoids wake of ashes lol. It would have to directly nerf Wake (like âwake now does 20% less damageâ) to move ret away from it like that and that is obviously never happening. So, no, it doesnât paint them in a corner at all. Again.
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