I dun think it truly matter, Wake is a talent one will HAVE to take, be it in this universe or another becuz without it, your rotation is gonna feel alot more emptier. Then you prolly have to take Templar Strikes instead of Crusading Strikes along with i dunno, 2 charge of Judge and BOJ just so the rotation is SOMEWHAT still a thing,
And even then all one is really doing is manually inputting ALOT MORE TS then they should anyway and killing their finger in the process.
Just a turn of phrase. Meant to indicate that the issue of core abilities requiring talent points is often brought up in threads which are not about that topic, off-topic that is, but then grafted into the thread and sometimes taking it over.
what your failing to understand is that wake is already accessible. theres nothing stronger or more impactful to the spec than wake of ashes. there was never a choice
moving it also means it has to be nerfed due to its raw strength.
this, the only saving grace ts has on the sims is that people fumble csaa to the point where ts is a dps upgrade for them in overals
And you keep failing to understand that people do not want to be forced to choose a end talent to access the hero treeâs. And 2 people wants Ion to honor his promise not to do so.
Not really, otherwise our other skills like boj would not be hitting as hard as they are.
you legit cant be comparing boj with wake of ashesâŚthe average boj hit is 100k at max ilvl per gcd with tis only fail safe is the current tier engine
there was never a choice to begin with your supposed to take wake of ashes anyways
Yes i am. By your own definition, you cannot play ret currectly without BoJ. It also has comparable damage % to wake at base level, gives 2 hp or has 2 charges (which ever you prefer) and we use it more often.
It can also be an alternative activator for templer too since it is easy access, (Espaicially since you have no choice but to pick it up anyways as ret.) and for some posters here, has range to make it easier to activate the talents. It is also a better templar start alternative although i prefer an melee skill.
The only thing wake offers is another attack skill that gives 3 hp, not even enough to cover vanguard, let alone the new templar skill, which takes 5 hp. And btw, it cannot hit hard due to balancing issues in pvp, which will make it quiestionable use in pvp.
you can absolutely play without boj because boj can be replaced by Templar strikes. the only difference right now is the current tier which makes boj a engine. you clearly dont know what your talking about at all about important gcds and spec engines
ya this convo is done if you stil lcant see how wake is good or how things interact and intersect.
pvp is irrelevant because pvp specific tuning is a thing. thus should have any merit or weight on pve tuning.
Wake of Ashes is easily obtained by anyone level 70 playing Retribution. As a large portion of overall damage done, granting 3 holy power per use, it cannot be optional if being optimal is the goal. Even though it is only used once per 45 seconds it is as impactful as Avenging Wrath to our damage toolkit.
The reason it is not granted baseline is the same reason we spend talent points to get an inturupt or a defensive. Skills being unlocked as you level doesnt make the skills any less manditory to play well.
Players are welcome to world quest and pet battle with whatever talent setup they choose, that has never changed. Granting WoA as an option 10, 20, or 30 player levels lower will not make the ability less required to play optimally in max level or competitive content. As far as it interacting with or enabling a hero talent or multiple hero talents, the option to play sub-optimally exists by choosing not to use WoA.
If the Hero talents required players to use another hp builder like Judgment or BoJ I expect the same arguments lacking all logic would complain they dont like being incentivised to spend talent points on having Judgment or Boj.
But the interrupt is not an end talent. That is the issue. Not the skill itself. If the interrupt that is needed is an end talent, that is a huge issue. If wake is such an important talent, it needs to be higher up the tree.
In this case as an activator for hero talents, it setâs up players whom donât wish to use their end talents for wake of being locked out of the hero talents. Putting wake in the upper 3 talent columns avoids the issue, or have the hero talents activate on a different skill entirely.
Thatâs the arguement Iâm trying to make, granting it to an easier talent bracket for end talent choice to not be impacted for the hero talents.
judgement is baseline, boj is the first talent we spend a point in. Not impacting player choice or agency.
Ok. So lets say we give players access to WoA at level 20âŚthis cannot effect the use of hero talents until they reach level 71 and would have access to WoA if they wanted it in either case. Hero talents are a non-issue while leveling below 71.
WoA is at the bottom of the spec tree because it is just that good. There is a reason why Deathknights dont get Army of the Dead at level 40, or Assa rogues dont get Deathmark at level 40. The bonuses added to the spec along the way while leveling feel better and better as you level(even if reaching 70 takes only a day or two). Two things are both Simultaneously true, WoA is powerful, and WoA makes the spec feel more complete. Would it be better for you and I and probably everyone if we could take WoA and its two augmenting talents instead of defensives or Divine Storm healing, a talent row higher in most content? Yeah probably, but it is a capstone because it is a bunch of damage and 3 holy power from one button press.
No, youâre just putting the same issue on a different spell.
They should put Wake in DS place and make DS baseline like TV.
They can leave the WoA capstones there and make the one before them make WoA give 3hp.
Essentially changing nothing but at least WoA is now âcoreâ to the spec.
It does for the purpose of choice.
Some people, apparently donât take itâŚ
Regardless of what this says about their way to approach the game, it remains that if the hero trees are to be designed around a spell, said spell shouldnât be easily skipable.
Whatâs the point of the âchoiceâ in the talent tree other wise?
Either way, personally Iâm fine with whatever.
But design wise this seems like it could be easily solved by just placing WoA higher (see suggestion above) and just cosmetically separating the spell in 2.
Why? I donât see why this matters.
For leveling? Who cares?
In fact, isnât that better for all Ret to get use to using it early on?
If they do something like placing it where DS is (make DS baseline) and split the the 3HP generation from it placing it where it currently is, it would effectively change nothing to our builds while also making sure everyone takes it.
devs care, design wise it also makes sense to have the stronger things at the end or near the end for a sense of growth. âit flows betterâ atleast that is what ive been told by some devs.
i see your point but its also moot cause your supposed to take ashes anyways 
its really just a non issue people are trying to turn into a issue for 0 reason. we shouldnt be hindered by people who dont want to take wake of ashes cause they fell for the âtalent trees= choicesâ meme
Ironically itâs an issue in the same way youâre saying itâs an issue to put it higher.
Regardless whether we consider it to be a choice or not in practical term from our perspective as players, WoA current positioning make it a choice design wise.
The tree is designed in such a way that you CAN make that choice.
I think itâs easier to solve the issue of it being a powerful spell early in the tree than it is to make a âchoiceâ a confirmed non-choice.
i know it would be a âeasierâ solution but its a unrealistic solution with what we know about the nature of talent trees and the overal perspective of devs.
i know all feedback is good but its also important to make it realistic on what the constrain that devs put. keep in mind this isnt something thats only ret paladins have to deal with but ALL specs. given this, there has been reworks this expansion where they grabbed a strong talent from bottom and put it more upward BUT nerfed its overal power or engine capabilities to make it fit its new position. given all of this info we have, it stands to reason that wake will AND should never be moved upward at the risk of being nerfed to match current dev philosophy weâve learned in classcords.
for example, your suggest to move wake upward but make its hopo generation be available later in the tree just sounds extremely sus in all fields. not only does it still forces the capstone row (so nothing has changed) it still wouldnt be enough of a nerf to make wake of ashes warrent it spot near the top due to the amount of raw damage it produces per gcd thats soft capped at 5
you might not care about leveling, but unfortunately devs care and casuals care
you can suggest it but again it just a solution to a issue that doesnt exist. also it runs to risk of people gaslighting themselves into thinking itâll be done and thus get mad when it doesnt. (example wings of liberty).
WoA is not required for the spec to feel âcompleteâ The retribution spec itself felt complete long before legion, the expac that added wake.
And it was still powerful before the talent tree remake in DF. The relocation didnât change nothing but put it as an end talent âchoiceâ node meant to define your character, by design. See benmarchâs post above here.
Unrealistic? It was already done in the previous version of the tree lol. It doesnât take much imagination to know it will work. We have so many modifier talents that can be changed to âadd wake effect here or add more damage to it hereâ that itâs not funny.
comparing post legion and pre legion ret paladin is again, extremely short sighted. theyâre both extremely different specs that played and flowed differently. this goes for all specs
it frankly wasnt. comparing post and pre rework wake is also incredibly shortsighted and shows how little you view the spec deeper than skin deep.
again wake was buffed significantly in direct damage, had its cd reduced from 45 seconds to 30 seconds and had its baseline cap raised from sqrt2 to 5soft cap. these are all HUGE buffs and this is not including the new capstones. i also stated this before and frankly you ignoring it doesnt mean these changes dont exist.
again wake being in the middle of the tree because its alot weaker than it is now due to the fact it also was tied to âwake resetsâ and thus couldnt be as strong as it should have.
wanna know what isnt funny? the fact your trying to dictate the placement of talents and their usage while getting it wrong in each post. what isnt funny that you dont have any notable achievements in pvp or pve except for one time in bfa s4 where corruption was a easy win for all specs. i also remember you being absolutely wrong about ret talents in the rework thread despite multiple people telling you thats no how âxâ worked, that isnt funny.
frankly if yall want to gaslight yourselves AGAIN to the point of making a long memeable copy pasta new thread in the forums then go ahead. at this point its like talking to a wall that stubborn enough to look at facts and logic and go âno im still right your wrongâ
No itâs not. You thinking ret needs wake to be the end talent or ret desperately needs it is. Itâs an extra button, does it feel good to press, sure, but thatâs all it is.
Your opinion.
Which can all be done by adding supporting talents through out the tree.
Your opinion. My statement in this arguement is âEither move wake from the end talents, or change the skill to activate the hero talents to prevent people from getting soft locked out of the talents.â Yourâs is âNuh-uh!â
Big difference.
WoA in its current form, is manditory(I feel like Iâve said this already). If a player opted not to use it they would be the weakest dps player at their item item level vs anyone playing a spec properly, now, prior to hero talents existing. So it is already a locked in talent. Having more benefit(tuning pending) from pressing WoA seems like a win win. Its great when pressed now, so changing to a big hp spender after seems quite fun.
Iâm curious though. If it was unchanged in performance but relocated in the spec tree as you want, what talents are you trying to take now that you cant, and what talents are you willing to opt out of to get them?
again you are failing to look past it skin deep. there is no other ways to try and convince you that wake is more âthan a buttonâ you simply refuse to listen
i have warcraftlogs and other data to back up âmy opinionâ along with blue posts showing how much wake was buffed highlighting how weak it was in df pre reworked. keep in mind that its spender option radiant decree was stronger than wake of ashes.
why are you like this? why do you want to split wake of ashes a strong talent baseline into MORE talents that become hard required to take. surely spliting wake into MORE modifiers is the answer. seriously i hope you never design games
you think there is but theres not. im just relyign the dev philisophy i was told regarding talent trees in general from the few connection with devs i have in game right now. your is âi dont like it so everyone needs to sufferâ
again wake of ashes in mandatory anyways, this is a non issue that you have a bnr for for 0 reason. oh well that lfr larry doesnt like playing ret with wake, his issues shouldnt dictate future d esign
there is legit no point talking now. i can pull data from every website for wow in the game and you still ignore it and repeat âpre rework wake was as strong as post rework wakeâ when theres mountains of evidence that says the contrary