Certainly feels lazy. They said herald would be abouy wake that led people to theorize about what could possible be that tenplat was built around. And yet here we are. I know its early but these trees felt like the second draft ans they just said “send it we have to launch in a few mo ths”
The worst that could happen is when alpha comes out and these new skills have recycled animations and sounds it will just kill off any little excitement I had for tww.
Sure, but also that tree had so many issues as it was anyways, hence why it was reworked. And while wake deals more damage, so does our other basic skills we get higher in the tree as well. some of our generators naturally (without modifiers) deals as much damage as our spenders.
That if you actively choose it at the end of the tree. stop assuming.
again an assumption from another forum poster that is on the forums reading what’s good or not. In a sense, the forum is yet another form of a guide. You wouldn’t know if it’s good unless you read it some where. Put yourselves in other peoples shoes instead of your own ego’s.
bro you need only read the tooltip to know that wake is good.
if the forum is another form of a guide, the tooltip is just as much, another form of a guide
or are you assuming that there are some people there who close open their talent page, then close their eyes and start clicking, and play with whatever stuck?
And now trolling starts instead of being open minded.
Nice talking to ya. Bye.
And no, when a new person compares the final talents, they will review all the choices, and by too tips itself, the orher options looks just as good, so they might in turn choose for a less button play instead.
Anyways moving on from you since you lack the ability to put yourself in others shoes.
Whats gonna happen when blizzard moves wake up the tree either to an unskippavle position or they make it baseline for ret?
Whats gonna happen to those who either wilfully or accidentally decided to ignore woa?
yes im not denying that the tree wasnt a pile or that everything about our kit got buffed. but considered the wake out of everything got buffed to a insane degree. its baseline dot got buffed, its direct damage got buffed by about 30%, its cd went from 45 seconds to 30 seconds (huge buff mind you), its aoe cap was changed from 2sqrt to 5 targets uncapped, it was given 2 capstones that buff it even further with truths wake and seething flame.
comparing the c hanges to wake to the changes that happened to regular generators is just kinda tone deaf
off topic but this should also be reverted, generators shouldnt do as much damage as spenders (without modifiers) that just lowers the skill ceiling even further and makes holy power a non resource
also i see your point but understand that this will never happen nor should happen.
we shouldnt balance or make things for the small amount of people who does this. unironically. again playing ret without wake is very much like playing a incomplete spec and you should play another spec at that point. im sorry but i hope blizzard never does class balancing of anykind on people who do that
Either nothing, or they put points through put the tree to give it DoT,multi-swing, 3 hp later. They could put in place of expurgation and make it baseline boj.
It’s only really insane if you pick it’s supporting talents.
I agree, and i also firmly beleive we need not to have so many modifiers attached to our spenders for them to feel impactful.
Class felt complete long before legion. Not having wake isn’t a make or break for ret. Again, if it was that important, then it needs to be reflected by being higher in the tree.
nope, without its supporting talents its about 4% of your total damage which is a SIZEAble amount for one button to do without modifers
ive played ret since tbc, i can assure you that comparing pre legion ret to post legion ret. heck comparing ret in any expansion is just lowkey ignorant.
again you are ignoring that the talent trees replaced leveling bonuses and every spec in the game has a capstone they cant function without.
consideirng the power of wake of ashes, it just cant be accessable earlier without nerfs and no one wants to see pre rework wake return
Searing is being reported as 3%, divine arbiter is slightly higher then it due to being more predictable, and final reckoning by reading it’s tool-tip would bring me to believe it can bring more damage then wake would.
The only reason you’d take wake by just looking at talents itself is either you want an additional button to push, or if you looked up a guide to min/max, or was told it’s theorcrafting on the forums itself. Which btw, would STILL be impactful if placed at another position in the tree, which I remind you of, is my arguement. Not whether one should take it or not, which as it currently is at, makes it look like an option, not a must take.
searing is 5% in aoe m+. 1-2% in st yes, divine arbitor is about 3.5% in st. final reckoning isnt nearly as strong in direct damage as wake but its also a cd effect. you are looking at these talents at face value instead of looking what they do for the spec as a whole. non of them deal more direct damage than wake AND especially when wake has its modifiers (why wouldnt you take these to further boost your strongest button per gcd) to a wopping 8%. suggesting that any of our other capstones “does more damage than wake” is just wrong and very suspect
non of these capstones do as much for the spec as a whole engine wise than wake of ashes. so not only does it generate 8% overal damage with all of its modifiers, it also funnels 30% of 400k if crit into ES which is about 120k, this is further amplifed by seething and truths wake which funnels even more damage into es. not only does it lines up perfectly with all of our other cooldowns. is also gives 3 hopo which is usually enough with csaa to slam a finisher during our wings windows into es furthering our whole engine even more. without wake then our wing windows and es windows will feel borderline empty
its more than just numbers its the smoothness of the spec which wake plays a huge part of on doing for modern ret paladin. again playing without wake is just intentionally gimping yourself to such a degree that your better off playuign another spec.
due to its strength its RAW strength. it can reasonably be put in another position but capstone without nerfs. we have devs on recording saying in blueposts and in classcords saying the idea of designing talent trees is putting the incredibly strong and spec defining abilities near the end of the talent tree. with the only exception being the classes main cooldown.
the thing is, wake was always a must take since its inception in legion. there was never a option or choice not to take wake. im sorry. every spec as a defining capstone they must take for their spec to function and wake of ashes is rets defining capstone.
governing this argument or giving legitmacy to people who dont want to take wake is just not it. this is going to sound incredibly elitist but it has some degree of truth to it.
if your not taking a spec defining talent, a talent that fleshes out the specs engine. then why do you care about hero trees in general? its incredibly selfish to force 96% of all players to bend over backward to appease a subsection of players that dont like or take wake of ashes
and if im going full elitist, it doesnt even look like you play the game to max level in casual content to even be effected by new power like this. so why do you care?
Greatbrae. Arahgon. You’re both technically correct. Yes, Wake is technically an optional talent that a player could opt out of like Greatbrae has said. But it does stand out as it is one of two bottom tree actives, such that even a brand new player going in blind is likely to, at the very least, try it out and probably stick to it after learning how much it benefits them, which is what I believe Arahgon is saying (incredibly simplified, of course). I know how this dilemma feels, as I played Prot, and was actively raiding, during the time when Seraphim was considered mandatory (back before the new talent trees. Legion maybe?) and I refused to take it because I didn’t like how it dictated my playstyle. Players might exist that feel that same way about Wake. That doesn’t mean they should nerf Wake to make those players “better”, but throwing all their eggs in the Wake basket isn’t the right decision either (for multiple reasons). Neither of you is wrong, your points run parallel to each other and are both worth consideration. Do we keep having Wake forced on us due to insane value and, with the current hero talent previews, mandatory and directly dictated point allocation? Do we change things so players don’t feel like some of their talent points might as well not exist because they’re going into Wake and it’s follow ups 100% of the time? 
That’s a discussion about the base ret talent tree, though, not the hero talents. I’ve already voiced my opinion on the current “Wake is mandatory to use hero talents” issue elsewhere in this forum so I won’t repeat myself here, but take a step back and imagine if they said both hero talent trees required you to use Blinding Light instead of Wake. How would that make you feel, as a player, to have to take that talent to use the majority of your hero talents’ potential? I think that’s where we should focus this discussion, not on Wake itself.
Most Rets feel WoA is a high value button. The feeling it gives is better than the rest if only somewhat greater. My largest concern with what you suggested, linking Hero talent benefits to ES/FR, is those have 66% of their value in pvp. If Blizzard wanted ES/FR to be impactful in pvp they could have removed the nerfs. Making ES/FR better than they are in pvp would be great, but i wont hold my breath. Also ES and FR dont have the same cooldown. So it would require some weird explaination why the Hero talent affects one for X value and the other 100% more, to be balanced due to uptime differences.
I brought up the cooldown thing already, that being that FR gives a boost to holy damage, which Hammer of Light and Empyrean Hammers both are, which theoretically can help mitigate the uptime difference. But they can always adjust ES/FR’s numbers directly, have a hero talent make FR’s boost bigger (can even base it on how many Empyrean Hammers you get off before your next Hammer of Light), reduce the pvp damage reduction on them, etc. There’s plenty of room to play with, numbers wise, to make it work. In my opinion.
i see the point your trying to make and i agree to it to a point but you kinda lost it with the blinding light comparison. yes the point being “will i like to be forced to pick blinding light if it was the focus of the hero talent” but comparing utility with a spec engine like wake is def kinda simplifying the concept way to much for it to be relevant.
i understand having wake for both hero talent trees is weird but i also dont see much of a issue with it from the get go considering how wake is a perma addition to the spec in general.
what would people like to see as the main talent for herald of the sun? mind you it has to have a similar cd and potential power to lights prism.
also keep in mind that herald of the sun has given us huge hints on potential talent chanegs for ret and holy, along with warriors having confirmed talent changes. for example lights prism having sunspot would completely kill lights hammer, there is also a node that icnreases the crit chance of how for ret only despite vengeful wrath existing as a class talent. this this in mind. what would you replace wake with?
I was refering to your comments about some choosing not to use wake for whatever reason/people not “looking up guides” ?
Do those people stop playing ret altogether because a core spell that was already mandatory (because its a great skill) is now “forced” unto them? Does the game need to be designed with these failsafes?
As someone that refused to play ret when seraphim was the do or bust for paladins, i would say yes.
Many specs is designed with multiple talent choice styles in mind, and don’t force you to choose said talents if you do not want to, most cases the dps difference is only slight, like 1% or less. That being said, yeah i can imagine people refusing to use a class or spec in some instances, we can look at how frost DK’s view their spec with great distain as an example, many refusing to use it because they either hate BoS or having to use a 2-hander.
I think Herald is fine, I think Templar is where they can/should diversify it. Wake makes total sense for Herald; both are radiant damage, both have a fire aesthetic. Herald looks right side of the tree focused (wake and the penitence talents) which means Templar should be left side of the tree focused (ES/FR and Divine Arbiter). Two different and distinct trees, like how Keeper of the Grove is treants and Elune’s Chosen is moons.
now heres the problem. baring no talent changes. this will 100% bar one tree in raiding and the other in m+ while both trees (depending on tuning) seem to be doing a great job trying to hybrid the aoe and st current builds to be interchangeable on gamemodes.
also given what we see with prism, making templar es or fr would kill the other in the choice node. if they somehow added lights hammer in the mix then i wouldnt worry about it to much. same goes for divine arbiter
It’s kind of like there are two different discussions happening here, and the arguments are a result of all parties not being entirely clear about what they’re really arguing for.
Wake of Ashes is a necessary, core ability for any ret paladin. Not speccing into it is like having blade of justice but just never putting it onto your hot bar or using it because you don’t like the way it looks. You can choose to just never use blade of justice, but if you don’t use it you are playing the class wrong. You can choose not to spec into wake of ashes (the single best one-button press a ret paladin can ever have), but you are playing the class wrong if you choose not to spec into it. Period. Also, it is extremely clear from reading the tooltip with even a rudimentary understanding of the class how good it is. It might not be clear to a brand new player who just boosted their first ever character, but if you’ve played ret pally for an hour (tops) you will easily see it.
There are arguments to be made that such vital and important core abilities should automatically be a part of the spec and not a missable talent. Lots of classes/specs have their own examples, and I am sympathetic to these arguments. However, that’s kind of a different topic for a different thread. It feels, to me, like people are sometimes trying to bring these arguments in through the back door using hero class threads, and I think it just muddies the waters and confuses the conversation. As things are now, every class and every spec has core abilities they have to put talent points into using, and that’s just where the game is. It might not be ideal, but it’s where we are, and I do not think blizzard is going to change it for the time being.
Back door? I have no problem with wake as it is (I use it) the problem herein-lies in it being the activator of the hero talents with a deep tree talent. People should not locked out of the hero tree’s by jot choosing said deep talent so either they;
Choose a different skill to activate 1 or both hero tree’s that is more accessible
Or
Put wake in a more accessible area in the tree and move it’s supporting talents appropriately, or create additional talents should it need to for balancing.
Here is an idea for templar, let templar strike be it’s activator making it a 3 hit combo skill.