this is a poor take again, please dont mouth piece “i dont want to take wake” takes it has no ground to stand on since you take wake regardless of any content
5 Likes
This is an excellent take.
As someone who has played in the past with individuals with disabilities, who prefer to play with as few hotkeys and active abilities as possible, it’s a shame that some of these talent trees require active buttons to use or get the most benefit from.
While I understand that not every tree is going to be able to adhere to every individuals’ specific needs.
World of Warcraft is an massive world with many players with many different backgrounds. It is very appreciative when game designers take these things into consideration. 
1 Like
Sorry what? First, not every single thing needs to adhere to or be molded around peoples problems. People sure do play this game with disabilities, and they get by pretty well from what I have seen. As a matter of fact I have not seen anyone say anything about not taking Wake of Ashes due to their disability here, nor have I seen anyone discuss not taking Wake in general until now. I don’t think it is appropriate to be using ‘disabilities’ as an excuse to get something changed that you may not like, it would be nice to hear from those people themselves and I am sure they can mostly speak for themselves as well.
Wake of Ashes is very foundational for the spec. If you want to escape keybinds as a Ret paladin that is very possible to do by taking Crusading strikes, and neither of the extra charge talents for Judge and Blade of Justice. That will lead to loads of downtime and not a lot of button pushing, rather than dropping one of rets strongest abilities that only gets pressed every 30 seconds (sometimes longer) and makes the spec better to play.
To be clear I support changing Herald from Wake to something else just so our hero talents have variability, and I would be agreeing with you if that was your reasoning, but somehow we are discussing not taking Wake of Ashes at all or ‘having the option to not take wake’ as if that was ever a common thing amongst ret paladins. Not a good reason and it isn’t realistic either because it was never really a choice in the first place. I want Herald to deal with a different ability as well though because I don’t think it is interesting to have two hero trees covering the same ability especially when Templar has a very cool design for Wake turning into a separate ability once used.
4 Likes
I would like there to be some changes to the Hero Talents based on variability, that is a big part of my piece of feedback.
But to be so dismissive of other people’s gameplay, and playing without talents you “deem worthy” is just silly toxicness. It defeats the purpose of an MMO-RPG designed with Talent Tree choices.
I’m not using this as an excuse, but to just prove a point there is a wide variety of people that play this game, and honestly, there’s no need for such toxicity about this matter.
In addition, I’ve also linked Ion at Blizzcon talking about this very subject, obviously something they were aware of when making these talents.
So again, it’s not without merit and is valid feedback. Just stop responding to this topic which such elitist toxicity. 
Reference: (https://youtu.be/xPqZ7LSGjSU?t=1824)
Edit:
Blizzard,
Back at Blizzcon 2023, when you showed a preview for these Hero Talent systems. You made note to discuss “deep optional talents” that these trees may work off of and the possibility of developing a system for these Hero Talents to trigger when not spec’d into those “deep optional talents.”
Retribution in particular has both their Hero Talent Trees procing off a “deep optional talent” – Wake of Ashes.
While many view this as core to the Ret paladin kit, for better or worse, it still is optional.
Are there any plans to many adjust these mecanhics for those that don’t wish to spec into Wake of Ashes for whatever reason, or has your view of Hero Talent triggers changed since Blizzcon?
Why does that need to be toxic?
Nothing I said was toxic or elitist, using those words repeatedly won’t make that true. You are pushing ‘people with disabilities’ as a reason for not having hero talents deal with the same ability which is not cool, and again there has been nothing about that from people who are disabled. You are acting as if I am the only ret paladin deeming ‘wake of ashes’ worthy of taking, meanwhile you can take a look at raider.io, warcraftlogs, whatever you want and see that even the most casual ret paladins are taking this talent. Turns out, it is not a talent that only “I” deem worthy. Wonder why that is.
You can’t link to someone saying they can’t take Wake of Ashes because of their disability because it doesn’t exist currently. You are making stuff up and that is what I don’t like. Creating scenarios that are not currently even an issue is ridiculous. Let people who are disabled speak for themselves. You are not representing people with disabilities here, you are just speaking for people without even asking them what they think or if they deem it as a problem because -you- have an issue with it that is unrelated to people with disabilities.
There is a valid reason for not having Hero talents deal with the same ability between two trees, but unless you are disabled you do not get to use that as a reason unless you have seen people complain about having to take Wake because they are disabled (show me this, the minute you do I will just agree with you) or have asked someone who is to get their input. I’m not going to keep this convo going as I respect you but you haven’t even mentioned hero talents giving more keybinds to people as being an issue for disabled folks, if you actually wanted to speak for disabled players (you should still find some and ask their opinion) then you can’t only do it when a problem arises that bothers you just so you can use them as your reasoning for getting rid of that problem.
6 Likes
While not in this particular thread, no I couldn’t. But that doesn’t discount people who aren’t here this may or may not effect, right?
Just because they aren’t here doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
I do know an individual whom I’ve played WoW with in the past, who didn’t go the “meta build,” who played a caster and used as many of the passive abilities she could to make the experience easier and more accessible.
I am not speaking for her, nor any particular person, nor would I assume you (or anyone else) speaks on behalf of all the Ret Paladins who play this game. (Sorry Arahgon)
I am however, speaking from my experience from playing with her, with the understanding that not everyone plays the game the same way.
Is this the sole reason for why I think Blizzard should reflect on these designs a bit? No, absolutely not and I’ve given multiple other reasons as well.
I’m not trying to cop out on “people with disabilities … change it NOW!!... blah blah blah!”
I’m not saying “Change it” – I’m saying “add this too the long list of feedback, take this into consideration if you haven’t already, or maybe reach out to the playerbase and expand on your thoughts regarding this particular design. (ability bloat, optional talents, etc)”
Especially since they had a slightly different philosophy regarding this coming off of Blizzcon and they’ve obviously changed Orcale based on player feedback.
Wake of Ashes being the keystone for both Templar and Herald is the main issue, that is 95% of it. But there are other reasons, and those reasons also have validity. It’s all I’m sayin.
I know its the internet, but I do hope you have a good weekend. : )
1 Like
If someone has a disability that makes using any ability uncomfortable, pressing buttons that give the maximum mathmatical benefit per keypress is important. Wake of Ashes is that ideal button. One keypress per 45 seconds and it is a very large percentage of overall damage done. There is no logic in suggesting any player of Retribution should benefit from avoiding talenting and using WoA, none.
3 Likes
Look I’m with tael here for the majority of the conversation. Frankly I’m keeping my own opinion on this whole debacle. I’m sorry but if you don’t take wake as ret paladin then frankly you shouldn’t play the spec. There’s appealing to casuals and then there’s whatever this is. There’s legit no valid excuse to make changes around an even lower minority group than rpers.
I know not everyone plays the same way but frankly again. There has to be a line drawn somewhere and everyone else shouldn’t be limited by the 4 people who play ret like they’re riding a bike without wheels. You seem like a reasonable person enough to understand that some limits have to be done on inclusivity. Cause this isn’t inclusive at all, it’s just being selfish towards 97% of all paladin players
Also please don’t speak for disable people. As someone with autism it just rubs me in a very very very wrong way. These people can speak for themselves and frankly we don’t need mouth pieces
In the message I deleted earlier since I thought it wasn’t my place to mention it. I said that I knew a member of the ret community that lost his arm from being deployed. How he was absolutely happy to see wake of ashes getting a lot of the power it lost in legion back. I can assure you that people with disabilities know what they want and how to ask or adapt to it.
Considering ret already has minimum keybinds baseline then it’s probably best to leave it at that. There really is no valid reason to not take wake
1 Like
How did this turn into disabilities and not taking wake?
The tl;dr of my post is move wake to the first 3 rows of the talent tree if it is so important to take to garantee the hero tree’s function as they are, if it needs to remain the key part of both tree’s. Other wise players would feel forced to choose a talent in a part of the tree where “choice” is supposed to be a thing.
And this is coming from someone who had been diagnosed with a mental disability in his youth.
2 Likes
There is not a single person that plays without wake of ashes. And this is not a subjective thing. Wake of ashes is a cool, powerful basically core spell to ret. Should it be brought higher up and made “unskippable” so that one guy playing without it doesnt feel forced to take WoA? Maybe but if you do this they would feel forced anyways since its baseline now.
Also there is no choice in the trees. Never was
6 Likes
This is an assumption.
Not everyone looks up guides or play group content.
1 Like
You dont need to lookup guides or do any hardcore content in wow what?.
WoA is a damn fine button why would anyone skip it? Its like skipping if it was possible avenging wrath
3 Likes
Seeing the overwhelming difference with the herald of the SUN.
Make WoG extend the armament time to leave a small buff on the players. WOG has to do SOMETHING.
Make armaments to be assigned by the paladin not make players pick them.
Give armament wielders movement
make the armament radiate pulsing damage and healing.
Extend armament time with holy shocks.
I feel like this kind of sums up the whole Wake of Ashes debate you’ve all been having. The tree is laid out in such a way that you have to purposefully avoid taking Wake to not take Wake. This is a spec tree design problem and the current versions of Herald and Templar encourage this lack of diversity in the spec tree. Maybe the tree needs to be shuffled around and restructured to make it more of a commitment or more clearly mandatory (probably not)? I don’t know. I do know that using WoA as the linchpin of both hero talent trees feels lazy, and like they want Ret to not get any excitement out of their hero spec unless Wake, specifically, is off cooldown, which will likely feel bad to play with (yes there are other talents in there that work off of other spells, but the introduction and/or activation of the mechanic is tied directly to Wake for both).
I think an option to fix this railroading into WoA would actually be to move Templar towards Final Reckoning/Execution Sentence, since Hammer of Light is holy damage and so are Final Reckoning and Execution Sentence, whilst WoA is Radiant and therefore fits with Herald more. Every build I saw takes both talents anyway, so why not attach the hero specs to their respective damage types’ bottom of the tree abilities? Final Reckoning would make you use Hammer of Light less often but with a damage boost, Execution Sentence would let you use it just as often as WoA would so everything can borderline just be transferred over to it 1 for 1. The only downside is neither having inherent holy power generation, but Divine Auxiliary exists and that could be added to Undisputed Ruling (especially since Eye of Tyr gets 3 Holy Power off that talent, so Ret’s activator should too in my theoretical version) to free up space for a new talent that can help them compete with Wake for “favorite button to press”. Or I’m talking nonsense. I dunno, I’m not a Ret player. So would that change anger/disappoint/upset you Ret players? Genuine question.
1 Like
Why does it matter in this case if it is at the end of the tree if it so important.
No one get’s good by themselves, some outside help, mostly guides, is required. For those that don’t and do not see it as an interesting talent, they fall for a trap. Which is horrible game design on something meant to be customizable.
This an option, however, the problem remains that they would rely on what end talents you choose, defeating the tree’s purpose of choices. I do think a shake up is the solution. Remember, df released with wake higher up the tree, not the bottom, so obviously they don’t view it as highly as we do.
1 Like
Okay, I know I’ve given y’all a share of grief lately, but I have to give you credit where it’s due. Whomever was on the team that made Herald of The Sun and Templar Hero Talents is GOAT’d and deserves so much praise, a raise, and sexual favors. These trees read as so freakin cool, and I know the art/animations department will kill it as they always have. I do think the choice node on the left side of Templar is a little unnecessary, as it feels like maybe not as much of an interesting decision as you might think, but that is totally nitpicking. The entire Templar tree, along with Herald of The Sun, are absolute BANGERS. No L’s to be held. Y’all Cooked and Ate That! Thank you for putting in so much effort lately on Paladin.
1 Like
Brother I dont need to lookup a guide to take wake wtf.
It literally does everything for you.
-generates holy power
-does high aoe damage
-short cd
Anyone pickimg up a paladin first time will read woa tooltip and be “WOW WHAT A NICE BUTTON”.
4 Likes
wake was significantly weaker pre rework than post rework hence why it was higher in the tree. it was also outclassed by radiant decree for alot of reasons that is now included in the post rework wake of ashes
2 Likes
Placement doesn’t really matter either since we can’t take hero talents without being 70 first. Like, we’ll have Wake no matter what.
Warrior is the oddball because they have 4 capstone split offs at the bottom of their tree so in their case, their hero trees do lock them into specific build paths. We can go deep into the right and left side of our spec tree without much concern for the points put into Wake.
1 Like
you don’t have to read guides to know wake is amazing and a good pick.
perhaps some people skip it, but do we really have to slow down for them?
I agree the game should not be designed around the top 1%, but neither should it be designed around the bottom 1%
3 Likes