I believe the label is self-evident, if you do not agree then we have a difference of opinion and we can agree to disagree.
no, we are not dealing in opinion. when people say âthereâs no interaction on the treeâ that is an incorrect statement. when people say âincreased frequency of kill command is bad for survivalâ that is an incorrect statement.
sure, but if you canât even give an example of how templar is any more transformative than pack leader is then Iâm not sure this discussion is worth anyoneâs time
My post doesnât mention any of your examples. Itâs true that some people are mentioning incorrect facts but, I have not in this discussion. So be more accurate with your feedback and please donât use straw man arguments to support it.
huh? you directly brought up paladin trees as transformative. then you never explained lol
I donât think you know what straw man arguments mean
???
Itâs a textbook example of a straw man argument. You tried to give examples which do exist in the domain of facts to refute my argument that I am dealing in opinions but, I did not mention any of those subjects. You conjured up a straw man (the examples which do not pertain) and donât understand or purposely didnât mention the obvious difference between the two.
this is a very long way to say âim moving the goalpostâ but your right idk what you consider to be transformative, but if you think an addition of a dot to your regular rotation is âtransformativeâ more power to you.
so like you?
its common curtsey to post on the character you main if your gonna âio flexâ especially when talking about specs you clearly have no idea how to play. if you say you have a paladin that pays all 3 specs at 3000io and 9/9 heroic, then i expect to see it to put validity to your claim. if not then i frankly have no reason to believe in your statement, especially when facts prove otherwise.
then prove it, if your paladin isnt your main then why are you talking like you know everything about paladin
that being said enough about paladin, back to hunter. keep it hunter related and stop spreading misinfo about other hero trees if you dont know how the spec is played
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I didnât try to, I did. there are tons of people in this thread making incorrect claims about survivalâs rotation and how this talent tree âdoesnât do anythingâ and how this isnât an impactful tree.
YOU mentioned paladin trees being a good example of a transformative tree and here we are two hours later without a single example lol
Templar which buffs your abilities and slightly changes your cd ?
Herald of the sun which is just passive dmg ?
Or Lightsmith which is a) disliked by community b) realistically more transformative for other ppl in your group and not you ? (and also not even a dps tree)
oooookkkaaaay
Youâd have better argument by mentioning oracle, if that tree wasnât also very problematic all the while not being a dps one
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Completely agree with what you saying. Lots of random spells that have been thrown at the class tree that dont interact with anything at all and its just press and forget. Seems wasteful to throw so many dead end skills onto a class which in turn just means we dont have room for impactful spells that do have fun interaction with the kit.
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I mean, if itâs not abridging downtime, that increased resource rate is literally doing nothing to your CPM. How is that making it faster?
Redundant, sure. But how is that âbloatedâ?
Den Recovery: We usually pop turtle/sotf before big incoming damage mechanic so we should be at full or near full health. The healing from den would seem to be wasted.
Howl of the Pack: Does the âyourâ crit damage increase include the petâs? IE bm kill commands, if not this seems very underwhelming from a BM perspective since the majority of our damage is from the pet and not the hunter.
Frenzied Tear: Another reset x ability talent. We are drowning in resets during hero/lust phases. We hardly have enough globals to spend our procs during call of the wild and weâre already in haste dr range. I guess we might want more just for faster globals. Perhaps add hunters to the 1s GCD club? Focus is basically energy at this point.
Furious Assault: With current bm playstyle we will not gain full benefit of this hero talent. Right now we dump back to back barbed shots and with enough haste and crit we will get a wild call proc use it and then override the furious assault bleed. Honestly Iâve been asking for a rolling bleed(ie fire mage ignite, shadow priest devouring plague, arms warrior bleeds) for multiple expansions now because overriding bleed seems like such a waste of damage. If rolling barbed shot bleeds is out of the question then another solution may be to make this its own unique bleed separate from barbed shotâs bleed.
Beast of Opportunity: Will this 6s pet act like an animal companion? Will it kill command, stomp, or beast cleave? If so this could be very interesting, and a nice little extra spike in our flat damage profile. But if it acts like a pet summoned during cotw then it is very disappointing and would make this choice node pretty awful.
Everything else looks âokayâ. Nothing to write home about but its something. Iâve only been reading up on paladins and they will drop light armaments, throw down extra hammers and just death rays from above. Sounds like a visual buffet of fun meanwhile hunters get a dark arrow every 30s or more kill commands? Doesnât sound very heroic if you ask me. Honestly with a name like pack leader I was hoping for a third permanent pet or at least spam more dire beasts out. Beast of Opportunity might have potential but 6s seems a bit short and we donât know if itâll actually do anything besides auto attack.
The mobility/utility options are weak, compared to other classesâ
- 15% extra speed on Aspect of the cheetah is rather underwhelming
- 5y of extra range for a few seconds after disengage is a bit better (f.e. for landing an interrupt in PVP as SV) but still poor
Now compare to:
- charge frees you from roots and increases movement speed by 30%
- deathâs advance makes you immune to slows and knockbacks among other effects
Where is the logic? Why does a 3min CD increase speed by 15% and a 20sec CD (with 2 charges) by 30%?
Are these trees even designed within the same company? 
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Iâm a BM Hunter, and honestly this is the most boring set of âtalentsâ Iâve ever seen.
One idea just off the top of my head is to give us a 3rd active permanent pet and have the tree build it up. To literally have a pack, having more than 2 active pets would be nice, and it would build on the âRexxarâ fantasy more. Also, having a 3rd active pet lets us customize it and have a pack that matches our own hunterâs theme. Like, I donât want to be a dark ranger, my troll hunter tames dinosaurs, not undead hounds.
In conclusion, people would have a lot more fun with a pack of 3 active pets than having extra damage added to kill command and all of the other boring passives in this treeâŚ
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Kind of agree here, if people think of pack leader they prob think of Beastmaster from WC3 with the bird,bear and pig.
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the one where he has 1 perma pet and everything else is temporary ?
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I was thinking more along the lines of seeing him with several named pets in the lore.
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While the Cheetah node is weak, why are you comparing a hero talent to Death Knightâs BASE mobility? Deathâs Advance already does this. Death Knight is currently THE least mobile melee spec and one of the least mobile specs in the entire game. Itâs a bit disingenuous to compare the MOST mobile class to the LEAST and also present the wrong information.
DK mobility right now is Deathâs Advance, which is a 35% movement speed increase on a 45s cooldown. It has always made them immune to knockbacks and slows. This is ALL they have baseline.
Hunter is one of, if not THE most mobile spec, and has:
- Disengage on a 20s cooldown.
- Posthaste tied to disengage, which is a 50% movement speed increase AND breaks any movement impairment effects.
- Aspect of the Cheetah, which is a ~2.4 minute cooldown giving you 90% movement speed for 3 seconds and THEN 30% for 9 seconds after.
- BM has no downtime from movement and abilities to instantly charge your pet, to maintain uptime.
- Survival has several gap closers: Harpoon and Flanking Strike, and to a lesser extent Spearhead and Coordinated Assault.
Where is the logic? Why does a 3min CD increase speed by 15% and a 20sec CD (with 2 charges) by 30%?
Thatâs not all the cooldown does. Thatâs the additional increase. Deathâs Advance is also not a 20s cd. It is 45. If you do want to look at a 20s cd that increases movement speed, however, Disengage does just that currently.
There is a second argument to be made that the new DK horse mobility is overtuned when compared to every other mobility option in hero trees (not just hunter), but this isnât the place for that. At least present the correct information before you compare different kits.
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Iâm comparing to this new ability from rider:
- Death Charge: Call upon your Death Charger to break free of movement impairment effects. For 10 seconds. While upon your Death Charger your movement speed is increased by 100%, you cannot be slowed, and you are immune to forced movement effects and knockbacks.
I assumed this replaces DA but maybe itâs on top, which makes it even crazier.
âŚand to this new ability from slayer:
- Relentless Pursuit: Charge removes all movement impairing effects and grants you 70% movement speed for 3 seconds.
So, itâs even 70% rather than 30%.
Compare to these now:
- Tireless Hunt: Aspect of the Cheetahnow increases movement speed by 15% for another 8 seconds.
- Cornered Prey: Disengage increases the range of all your attacks by 5 yards for 5 seconds.
No matter what you say, these are times better than the hunter ones. Leagues ahead
So, what Iâm saying is, warriors get 70% speed on a 20sec CD ability with 2 charges, while hunters get 15% speed increase on a 3min CD ability with 1 charge! You can do the math yourself if you want, and see how the warrior one is tens of times more valuable in terms of speed gained over a certain timeframe
Every 3 min I can get 15% for 8sec, while a warrior can get 70% for 3 sec like 10 times per 3 min, if not more. This adds up to 30sec+ of 70% movement speed increase over the same period of time
Amazing for PVP. Amazing for PVE.
What will I do with tge extra 15% for 8 sec from cheetah exactly? Run in the barrens while leveling before I have mount?
Thatâs the kind of new skills I want for my hunter, not this garbage weâre given
And youâre trying to defend it for some reasonâŚ.
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I opened my post up by saying that the node IS weak. It is the very first line.
There is more nuance to classes than just what is present in hero trees. You canât give the most mobile class in the game the same mobility buff as the least mobile class in game. It doesnât make sense and hunter does not need that. Could they use something else? Sure. However, look at the other hero trees. Mobile specs arenât getting much in terms of movement. Even some of the slower specs are not getting anything.
I assumed this replaces DA but maybe itâs on top, which makes it even crazier.
It does replace Deathâs Advance and the tooltip states this. I even said it probably needs to be tuned down compared to every other mobility option offered in other trees.
You canât look at the hero trees in a vacuum. You need to look at the overall class/spec it is changing and understand why some nodes exist or what they do.
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Sure, then letâs see what the other 2 most mobile classes get:
Evoker:
- Trailblazer: Hover and Deep Breathtravel 50% faster, and Hover travels 50% further.
- Shape of Flame: Tail Swipe and Wing Buffet scorch enemies and blind them with ash, causing their next attack within 4 seconds to miss.
Demon hunter:
- Evasive Action: Vengeful Retreat can be cast a second time within 3 seconds.
- Unhindered Assault: Vengeful Retreat resets the cooldown of Felblade.
And this is just from this round of hero trees. Evoker has even better ones from before.
So no, saying that hunter already being mobile kind of justifies mobility options being weak, is a fallacy.
If demon hunter can get double retreat, and evoker can get 50% longer and 50% faster hover, then hunter should get something better.
These abilities are fun, inspired, interesting, and new. The hunter ones are dull, boring and passive. They just put the first thing that came to mind. Same as the Dark ranger one - âdisengage slows 1 enemy by 40% for 8 yardsâ.
They need to try harder
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