Feedback: Oracle in The War Within

Classes Priest
384

What about the feedback on the core talent trees, say, for DK?

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385

First off I would like to say thank-you for listening to the community concerns and going to the extent of doing internal play-tests. Second thanks for being prompt about coming back to us to let us know your findings, good timely communications with the player-base is critical.

Going forward I feel that possibly changing the name/theme of the Oracle hero tree is needed as for Holy the whole predicting the future is a miss both lore wise and gameplay wise. Lore wise a lot of the foreseeing the future happened with what were quite clearly shadow priest variants and gameplay wise pre-emptive healing has always been the domain of Disc where Holy was always the reactive healer.

While I am personally not a fan of support gameplay in wow I can see the appeal for some so if you want to keep the support aspect of the holy/disc hero tree I would not die in a ditch over it. However I do feel that wow is becoming complicated and bloated as discussed in a variety of recent vids by community voices, most recently by automaticjak https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AD6n9cGOGY so whatever you do please reduce the out of gameplay complexity of whatever you design. Probably the biggest issue people had with the previous iteration of Oracle was the share complexity of the moment to moment gameplay and the amount of UI support Addons and out of class knowledge needed to make it good.

This is particularly an issue for me as I already have a lot of support gameplay in my game as the raid leader for a friends and family team keeping them on track, coaching and reminding them in moment to moment raid gameplay. The simplicity of the current holy priest suits me and I see see our more casual raid members really struggle with the complexity in WOW as it stands so reducing the complexity should be a goal.

Blizzards mantra used to be simple to learn and hard to master. Currently I feel wow has become hard to learn and a PHD to master. Currently you have an exponential skill to performance curve where you have to learn a lot to get good performance not getting good performance until you have mastered over 75% of the knowledge. You should work hard to make it a logarithmic curve where gaining more skill and system mastery gives only a small improvement in power but you get to about 75% performance quickly as you pick up the game.

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386

Please make the Mountain Thane Hero Spec have a viable path for Prot Warrior Sword & Board/Gladiator DPS. It would be such a huge shame to have such a cool thematic fantasy that just… doesn’t augment or evolve the gameplay much past “you’re hitting thunderclap and storm bolt more”.

WoD:

  • You guys create Gladiator stance. We love it.

Legion:

  • You remove Gladiator stance, claim that its not good having dps roll against tanks for shields.
  • In that same expansion, you give everyone a fixed weapon so nobody has to roll against each other

Battle For Azeroth:

  • Everyone asks for Gladiator stance back- nothing

Shadowlands:

  • Everyone asks for Gladiator stance back- nothing

Dragonflight:

  • Everyone asks for Gladiator stance back- nothing

Season of Discovery:

  • Brings back Sword & Board Prot DPS. This is a fantastic start, but it of course, is a seasonal mode and not retail.

War Within:

  • Everyone asks for Gladiator stance back-
  • Introduce a new system that proposes to fundamentally twist traditional specs/gameplay into new fantasies and ideas. What better time to bring back some cool ideas like Dark Ranger Hunter! or Necromancer Unholy DK!
  • Here’s a hero spec for Prot Warriors that is a golden opportunity to re-introduce Prot DPS aaand- nothing. Just “you’re still a tank, but this time with more lightning I guess”.

sigh.

Not holding my breath for Colossus, but one can hope. Though the Mountain Thane fantasy is far more fitting for Sword & Board DPS personally.

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387

not trying to be rude here…
but why are you posting this in the priest forum page ;_;
Share this feedback on the war page so they can properly assess this.

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388

Hehehe. I think they are just so excited to see someone answer.

I see it like a classroom of kids who all got random bizarro jellybeans The oracle-kid got the vomit flavored one, and so rightfully said something and got a new one. So now the thane-kid who got snot flavored and the DK-kid with the soap flavored are hoping for the same trade-in.

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389

My problem is more about the concept.
Oracle doesn’t sound warcraft to me at all. It sounds more like Diablo class or something.

We have cool Priest titles and ranks from Warcraft RPG like Anchorite, Arcbishop, Pyremasters, Priest of the moon, Acolyte, Cleric, Confessor, Inquisitor

Even if want to go something like “Oracle” we could use Prophet like Velen.

At the same time the gameplay being around a spell called Premonition which looks like a worse and more complex version of PI sounds awful.
I want light power, I want flashy spells, shining everywhere, burning with holy light. Not just some passives and a random buff to X player to increase their dmg for 20s… We already have PI for that and it’s ok

390

i suppose my issue with overly polite crafted statements is how little actual information is ever contained within them. when kaivax makes this statement, its hard to tell if there is exhuberance or excitement or merely obligatory exclamation marks.

for one thing, “one of our goals in sharing so early,” feels like blame avoidance. or to put it another way, butt-covering. cause it can be translated as “yeah we planned it this way all along. totally.” and then they say after reading feedback, …and discussing the oracle tree…and playtesting it internally… they have decided to “revisit” the concept. maybe its just me, but it would have been cool if their design process involved discussion and playtesting before reveals. just seems kinda normal thinking that’s how it should be…

“revisit,” they say. it once again makes them sound like they planned this all along. yeah, revisit. its a word that admits of no mistakes. we’re pro designers here guys. sometimes we revisit ideas. sometimes, we even playtest the ones we came up with in the first place. we’re getting paid the big bucks after all, its not like we ever make mistakes or have to apologize for anything. you’re upset? well don’t worry, we are revisiting.

i think one of the big reasons the quality of virtually everything these days outside of the actual bleeding edge of technology (and even that has its issues) is getting worse is because of this dishonest way of thinking & communicating that has become the norm among those in society who are privileged with positions of status or influence. they simply refuse to admit when they have a bad idea, but what’s worse than that, what is insidious and horrific, is that the worse the idea they have, the less they will say about it.

like how did this happen? who is responsible for this mess? just nobody, right? like always? is anything going to change? probably not right?

and then they wordsmith their way into making it as if its no big deal at all, nah we weren’t about to let down tens of thousands of fans, nor wildly muck up the gameplay, like chill bro, take our carefully worded PR statement that shields our egos, which is not like we needed to shield it, cause we’re pretty perfect, i mean way better than you people anyway, so yeah, i mean honestly its not even carefully worded PR! we’re these cool california devs. and consider yourself blessed we interacted at all! it is that style of speaking down to the audience that gives me little hope for the future, when there is zero humanity or humility in the communication system, its just indicative of this entire period of history we are living in.

we desperately need more real human feelings but its like everyone is forgetting what that is. poor kaivax doesn’t understand, none of them do, that bots can easily already write all the empty crap they are giving us. i’d say they should pray for their souls, i mean their jobs, because they’re doing too good of a job turning themselves into replaceable bots

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391

That is actualy quite impressive and unexpected.
Thank you.

392

I would say inquisitor or confessor are 2 possible options for me that might be more interesting.

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393

I think your reading way too much into it.

Firstly, they could have NOT taken the time to respond and just leave us all in limbo. But instead, we have gotten acknowledgment and they are letting us know that they are going to revisit Oracle with a new/different direction in whatever incarnation that will end up being.

Perhaps they did not think it was going to be met with such a negative response and were truly excited to share with us what they are thinking. Or perhaps they were unsure and just tossed it out there to us to see how we think and go from there.

Regardless how we got here, what’s important is that they are listening to feedback enough to recognize the course correct that must be done and they have done so early enough to prevent a lot of wasted development and implementation of the intended idea.

I am glad they decided to nip this in the bud and go back to the drawing board and hopefully they have a better idea in hand based on the other hero talent tree feedback and whatever inspiration they have gleamed from the community.

We should encourage more discourse by rewarding and acknowledging the positive steps taken and this acknowledgment is indeed a positive step.

So I at least very much appreciate the nod and glad to know they are taking feedback in, in a serious manner and willing to change things that are just not received well for whatever reason they think is justified.

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394

Indeed, there are no variations on how they can say something that will please everyone anyway.

Suffice to say that getting a response at all is near unheard of, and extremely welcome to see acknowledgment of our issues.

Did I want him to say “Ok friends, PI gonna be a personal CD forever now and Oracle gets trashed for something way cooler!”.

Yes. Yes I wish it would say that. But let’s be real they can’t reply that way.

Let’s take the W here.

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395

Elune be praised!

396

I do hope this reevaluation keeps what looked like a desire for a more support-y playstyle because i was actually really looking forward to that at least.

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397

OOPS I got linked this by my friend and didn’t even see the subject matter. Just assumed it was a “we hear you and have updated the hero spec” post.

Actually a little reassuring that they’re taking feedback for these things on a class by class basis in their respective forum posts tbh. I’ll move my comment there!

Lol this is so accurate honestly you’re spot on. You guys just got thrown a life ring. We’re still slowly drowning :')

398

I would like to thank you for the change in direction for the Oracle hero talent tree.
When the developers get a chance to show us your new direction on Oracle, I will be willing to give feedback as is needed.

I can understand the reason why there is more development in bring in more support abilities to healing. But this is a game design issue that needs to be addressed in general for “The War Within”. The trinity of tank, healer, DPS is broken.

As we gear tanks get tougher and DPS get less squish and deal more damage, and healers can heal more. The need for a healer can be offset by bring another DPS at none bleeding edge.

(I personal leveled up another priest, and for the most part running in a heroic dungeons and other low-end content I was not really needed unless people messed up. I would do damage, PI ect but was less effective than a pure DPS).

Giving us more utility, damage and throughput is great, but we need fix the trinity, so all this extra healing power is actually need.

On a side note, I would love to have some of the utility I lost over the year in favor of Power Infusion. Fear ward comes to mind, the auto dispelling hots we had I want to say where around in WOLK. Maybe let us cast insta smites with sure of light procs, or being able to move and channel divine hymn was fun in legion.

399

Now would you also consider switching which Priest specs get Oracle and Archon?

Oracle seems more appropriate as an option for Shadow Priest than Archon would. Archon sounds too light based and righteous, while Oracle sounds like it could be more Shadow themed.

The Oracle of Delphi was thought to operate in a cave-like structure, and the prophecies were thought to be ambiguous. Sounds a little shadowy or void-like to me.

400

I flat out disagree with your logic for multiple reasons.

But to put it plainly in a very simple and direct understanding, if you claim Oracle should be shared with Shadow because of “Void-like” reasoning… what because of the multiple potential futures? While I don’t think that is really a concrete foundation to build off… besides the point really, what you have to at least acknowledge is that we already have “Voidweaver” as a spec that anything "Void-like- would fall under.

Shadow is more than just “Void” and “Old God” themes. Those themes can easily fit with Archon as if it was Voidweaver and Oracle… then BOTH are “Void” related? That is nonsense.

With Archon, you have a simple explanation that works for both Holy and Shadow. Both Holy and Shadow being the “Masters” of such power and at the “pinnacle” point of power in their respective cosmic leanings.

We can explore some descriptions of such titles in history…

Archon (Greek: ἄρχων, romanized: árchōn, plural: ἄρχοντες, árchontes ) is a Greek word that means “ruler”, frequently used as the title of a specific public office. It is the masculine present participle of the verb stem αρχ-, meaning “to be first, to rule”, derived from the same root as words such as monarch and hierarchy.

In essence, a ruler. So if Holy is an Archon, how are they ruling? They are ruling by becoming light itself where as Paladins wield the light, Priests manifest themselves as light.

  • Apotheosis
    [Miracle Worker: Gain a charge / Reset the cooldown] of your Holy Words, and enter a pure Holy form for 20 sec, increasing the cooldown reductions to your Holy Words by 300% and reducing their cost by 100%.

Apotheosis

noun

  1. the highest point in the development of something; culmination or climax.
    Similar:
    culmination. climax, crowning, moment, peak, pinnacle, summit, zenith, apex, acme, apogee, high point, highest point, height, high water mark
  • the elevation of someone to divine status; deification.

So what is the Shadow equivalent? Well compared to Apotheosis, Shadowform is basically the visual opposite. One you are engulfed in Holy Magic while the other you are engulfed in Shadow Magic.

In a sense, Shadow is the reflection / shadow of Holy in that cosmic counterbalance sort of way.

You can see such examples in game with the Naaru and Dark Naaru. Since we have Holy having aspects of Naaru, we can easily see Shadow having aspects of Dark Naaru.

Dark naarueditedit source

Naaru can die, but if their physical form is damaged, it may bleed their energy causing them to enter a darkened state[55] in which they are weakened and produce void energies,[56] becoming dark naaru [57][15] (Dark Naaru)[58] or darkened naaru.[59] A naaru’s darkened state is different than death. Their energy may take up to one thousand years to regenerate.[60] It should be noted that some darkened naaru still appear to harbor altruistic intentions; however, their weakened state may be exploited for nefarious purposes, such as creating void minions[61] and raising the undead.[62] It is unknown if this cycle occurs naturally without an external catalyst. Examples of darkened naaru are D’ore, M’uru, K’ure, and K’ara. Thrice, darkened naaru have also been shown to transform further into void gods; though in all known occasions this was only when their light was forcibly drained by an outside party, so it does not seem to be a natural phenomenon and is normally extremely rare. The ethereal Locus-Walker noted that the few cases of naaru falling into Void he knew of had occurred when mortals were involved, which he thought carried fascinating implications.[63]

To conclude:
Anything “Void” related should find itself in Voidweaver and since Voidweaver is not up for debate for Shadow having access to it, it makes no sense to have 2 different Void related Hero Talent Trees connected to shadow as that defeats the purpose sharing a similar bridge/effect with the other counter specs.

Makes no sense for the direction of “Oracle” to be void related when Voidweaver is also Void related. That means Oracle really is not really aligning itself with predictions of the future in the way your thinking with the many future possibilities that Void has.

What Oracle really is / should be is something like this… (using your Delphi example)

https://www.thecollector.com/oracle-of-delphi/
What exactly is an oracle? Or, more specifically, what was an oracle in an ancient Greek context? The communication of divine knowledge from god to mortal, also known as divination, played a major role in ancient Greek religion. Divination took many forms, from the study of sacrificial entrails to the interpretation of the flight of birds. But perhaps the most important form of divination was the practice of consultation of a god through an intermediary. This intermediary was known as an oracle.

That is not really mentioning “future possibilities” like the Void is that your trying to connect.

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401

I never meant to claim that Oracle is exclusive to the Void, just that there should be nothing stopping Shadow Priest from following the Oracle path. There is no basis in actual world history or WoW lore to assume that the Oracle path is this light-based, holy thing that can have nothing to do with shadow.

Even if you do want to claim that Oracle is holy-exclusive, Shadow Priests can now cast holy spells like Flash Heal even in shadowform.

Additionally, Shadow priests lean more heavily into psychic and mental themes than any other spec in WoW, so it makes sense for them to have the option to pursue divination-themed abilities.

By this logic, any spec should be able to follow the Archon path if all that it implied is mastery. But we already had an Archon in actual WoW lore, and she seemed more Holy or Discipline in nature than Shadow.

To make a long story short, an Oracle Shadow Priest makes a lot more sense to me than an Archon Shadow Priest based on actual game content and any real-world mythology the Oracle path may be inspired by.

402

The only connection you are trying to make between Shadow and Oracle is the “Future predictions” aspect and trying to claim that, that is reason enough to fit for shadow because of the “Void-like” nature of seeing multiple paths of the future. But again… if that is the only connection point between Oracle and Shadow, then it just simply makes more sense to relegate that to Voidweaver because its in the name itself… its weaving powers of the Void. So that means it does not make sense to have 2 paths for shadow that each dabble in the “void” aspect of dealing with future outcomes.

Looking at the ancient Oracle role and duty (using your “delphi” example), the Oracle was essentially the mouthpiece of a divine being (a god) that acted as the in-between to interpret for the deity of worship.

Nothing about that is remotely related to Shadow. Shadow is about taking ahold of power itself, not acting as voice for said power.

I am not discarding Oracle from shadow because of the cosmic power it represents, I am discarding Oracle from shadow because NOTHING about Oracle has any relationship that is remotely close to shadow. Oracle you act as an in-between, Shadow you are taking power for yourself… to become the essence of shadow itself, the essence of power. Not worshiping power. If any worshiping of power is to even be attributed to Shadow, that would be the Old God theme and that would clearly fall under Void (Void lords) and that would clearly fit best with Voidweaver. Any other theme related to shadow in any way is far removed from anything close to being compared to Oracle.

That’s not really an argument about themes. That is a mechanical argument. Shadow for a long time could not cast Holy Spells while in Shadowform or they get tossed out of it. Shadow used to have Shadow Mend instead of Flash Heal. These are mechanical changes done for balance and general quality of life situations. Many people would rather have Shadowmend compared to Flash Heal because it fits the aesthetic of Shadow Priest. But its good that is not the case because in PvP, having another school of magic aside from Shadow to use when you get interrupted is a balance and quality of life situation as I mentioned as it used to be horrible when everything was on Shadow and 1 interrupt and your dead in the water unable to do anything worthwhile.

If we see blizzard pulling from sources outside wow like how they crafted the Oracle and how the naming of those spells and abilities have a striking similarity with our own real history of ancient cultures and references, then what is to stop them from pulling in other aspects outside of WoW that does not have to be based in our own reality?

Look to StarCraft (Blizzards IP) and see Archon and High Templar from that game. They use Psionic spells and the very Shadowform Icon looks basically exactly like the face of an StarCraft Archon. We already have Psychic Link and Mental based spells. the next step in going into Psionic spells isn’t much of a leap. At least that has potential for a theme that can be extended to Holy as well. We still have Psychic Scream that Holy uses, Alongside Mind Soothe, Mind Vision, Mind Control.

Or you can also go the route of similar Holy Word and Shadow Word spell counterparts. Power Word: Life (Used to be and should be Holy Word: Life but I assume the interaction with Holy resetting Holy words once again made this change for mechanical / balance reasons) and Shadow Word: Death. Or Renew and Shadow Word: Pain as both do essentially the same thing just one is healing and other is damage over time.

That is why I included the example of Paladin. Paladin wields Holy… it does not become it. Warlocks force the Shadow/Fel/Demon magic and use it as they desire… they dont become the magic. Death Knights tap into death magic, they are not the Aspect of Death itself.

See the difference? Holy and Shadow BECOME the focal point of power. They are the very essence of it when compared to any other class. This is why the title “Archon” and the meaning of “Ruler” fts because there is no higher power in their field. They have reached the pinnacle of it by becoming the power itself while everyone else just wields it like a weapon.

You can believe what you wish, but I can provide actual tangible examples that show otherwise and even with the actual Archon from Shadowlands, you have to also acknowledge that the Forsworn were also present and they were basically the opposite as they defied the Archon and the way of the Kyrians just like how Shadow is opposite from Holy.

It is said that that opposites attract in many aspects of life and in stories. Often your rival is the best opposition to force you to improve. So if you are forced to be together, you become an unstoppable force. Whereas with Discipline, it strikes a balance and walks the line between both Holy and Shadow. It essentially find harmony between the two. Leaving Holy and Shadow to be drunk with power to the point it consumes them and that’s when you get Holy Fanatics like the Scarlet Crusade and Yrel and the armies of the Light. Or in Shadows case, you get depraved acts of forcing a Naaru to go into its Dark Naaru state when you torture and drain its energy. Leading to once again this opposite state within the same being. Which Archon fits perfectly between Holy and Shadow as the penultimate power / authority while having to contend with the extremes of both sides.

If you don’t think Oracle works for Holy/Discipline and should be swapped for Archon then I would say just remove Oracle outright because Archon is a much better match for Shadow than Oracle is.

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403

I’ll keep it short myself but for me, Archon is definitely good for Holy / Shadow. Ruler of Light and Ruler of Void, it fits perfectly for both, and doesn’t do so for Disc who dabbles in both.

That aside, another reminder that we need an interrupt, an actual defensive and a Brez! Willing to give up PI for those! Fair trade I believe :joy: