Feedback: Mythic+

Community General Discussion
22

I would rather speak to the entire system of Mythic+ this expansion, instead of going over the individual changes.

Mythic+ this expansion has been incredibly painful compared to last expansion, and after much thought I believe I’ve isolated a few reasons why.

–Starting Fortified/Tyrannical at lvl 2 instead of lvl 10 adds a significant amount of difficulty to the dungeons, meaning that there isn’t really a super easy mode for new players to get their feet wet in. Even a 3 Fortified Motherload!!! has enough damage to easily overwhelm a newer player.

–Artifact Power rewards are extremely poor for the time invested. Last expansion this wasn’t as bad, since the artifact power scaled significantly faster with key level. This expansion, due to starting Fortified and Tyrannical at 2 instead of 10, it is significantly harder to push higher in voiceless pugs, resulting in another problem.

–Raider|io Elitism isn’t really a problem with the website itself, but more of an expression of frustration with how difficult some of the mid tier keys are these days. In Legion, it was significantly easier to pug keys because the dungeons themselves were more forgiving, and you didn’t have an additional affix at 2. Now, once you hit 10 in a pug, if you don’t have a group working together your G’huun spawns can easily snowball, causing many groups to wipe. This has causes a lot of elitism about Raider|io scores, making it very hard for the once per week folks to get their keys done.

Due to the difficulty of the dungeons, and lack of rewards, people want to ensure they have a VERY overkill group for content that doesn’t actually give that good gear. Since the dungeons can’t reward Azerite armor either (looting during the week, not the weekly chest), there is very little incentive to do Mythic+ more frequently than once per week.

My suggestions.

–Double AP gain across the board, and introduce additional rewards at 10/15//20, such as Expulsum, raid materials, and gold.

–Change Fortified/Tyrannical to level 10, OR reduce their base power but increase their scaling (such as on Fort trash is 5% stronger, but gains an additional 2% damage / health per key level).

–Allow Azerite gear to drop at an appropriate level from the end of dungeon chests. The gear system is so needlessly punitive that it’s driving folks from the game. Allow us to get some gear from SOMETHING. Please.

Regards,
Khal.

29 Likes
23

Fortified affix should never be combined with Teeming.

Fortified and Tyrannical affixes are very unbalanced (Fortified slows you down so much more compared to Tyrannical).

Some bosses on Tyrannical are much harder than others (for example last boss in Tol Dagor, last boss in siege of boralus and others).

AP reward from end of dungeon chest is too low. It should also drop some gold to compensate for repairs and expensive consumables (food, flask, potions).

Trash mobs do too much casts you have to interrupt or otherwise deal with.

Overall I think something needs to be done to make M+ more pug friendly, I mean those groups without voice communication are getting punished for not using it.

Never ending bugs, like mobs pulling through the floors/walls in Tol Dagor and Waycrest. Hunter pets getting stuck on last boss in Siege of Boralus.

Not M+, but also related, give hunters battle rez back.

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24

I recommended something like this a while ago and I think that’s the right way of balancing Rogues without actually nerfing them.

My suggestion is a bit different though, I think a long CD for invis potions is needed and I’m actually ok with it being 10m, but I believe it should be independent from the other potions, so we are not directly punished from using the invis pot instead of shroud (10m on everyone’s DPS potion is way too big of a punish imo).

15 Likes
25

Mind checking on adding another 5 minutes to the timer for Kings Rest? In higher keys, 1 wipe or slow pull and it’s basically over. That dungeon feels too pressured against the timer.

Also, in Tol Dagor, Bobby Howlis runs off and cast Howling Fear. Personally, I don’t like how he runs off and can cast something that fears the whole party.

The tenticles in the final boss of Siege of Boralus, feel like they spawn to quickly, making the fight extremely unfriendly to melee. Maybe slow down their spawns by 2 or 4 seconds.

Overall, the majority of the dungeons, it feels like if you make 1 mistake you can’t recover without pulling a rabbit out of a hat. It’s extremely punishing compared to how Legion was, where the timer was forgiving and had leeway for mistakes or slowed pulls.

To much “go go go” in this expansions Mythic+ in my opinion. Just isn’t fun to do and feels more like a chore.

17 Likes
26

My biggest problem with M+ this expansion is how claustrophobic all the dungeons feel in BfA compared to in Legion. It’s like there’s no room at all to do anything or else you’ll pull sixteen other nearby mobs.

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27

Ythisens,
Can you add siege to this list viqoth on a high tyrannical just takes way to long simply from having way to much health on the tentacles compared to other fights.

4 Likes
28

So my biggest concern, personally, is the discrepancy between poisons/diseases/curses in the dungeons that were designed for bfa. While they may have been originally designed around their thematic differences, from a balance standpoint they are pretty awful. The majority of the curses can be ignored or are punishing to dispel quickly (in the case of hex in Atal’Dazar) while poisons and disease are absolutely devastating (heal absorbs, sleeps, stacking group damage) when you don’t have a dispel for them. I think this is one of the factors that is causing shaman healer issues in M+ that could easily have been alleviated by the dev team.

6 Likes
29

Hi, thank you for making this post here.
I have ran a lot of 10+ or higher m+ since 8.1 and I want to share my opinions here, mostly about dungeons that really requires your look here:
Shrine of the Storm: This is one of the dungeons that we only want to run in specific weeks because it is unforgiving, hard to play around and only some specific classes are encouraged for this. Despite all the changes from 8.1, this is needed to have a look from devs. Let me have some points here:

  1. The minibosses: Windspeaker Heldis, Runecarver Sorn and Guardian Elemental has too much hp compare to the minibosses in different dungeons. We usually pull that with another trashes but when they are Infested, it’s screwed. On Bolstering, these are the worst to deal with as we have to make a comp with 4 humanoid cc-classes, including the tank/healer, or a druid with Mass Entangle. Compare with the remaining mobs of the pack, it’s close to 13 times more hp so even with more single target, these mobs eventually die to passive cleave and bolster the minibosses.

  2. Tidesages Council: This is also one of the hardest bosses on Tyrannical. Not only it’s one of the longest fights but also so many things to look at as the fight goes longer on higher keys. The downtime of Galecaller Faye’s Blessing of the Tempest is really short and there can be 10 tornadoes up at the same time and it’s really annoying for melee dps, not to mention their speed is fast when they are on her Swiftness Ward. Their melee dps combined melt the tank on high keys and with Necrotic or Grievious, any other tanks than Blood DK, Prot Warrior or Prot Paladin will have a very hard time.

  3. Lord Stormsong’s Mind Rend: Since it’s random on people in group now and instant cast, it’s very hard for healer to play around especially when it has short downtime as an instant cast. I expect Mind Rend having a cast time, or its damage lowered.

King’s Rest: The hardest m+ dungeon I have ever played in the history. Despite the nerf in 8.1, there are some major problems that held the key from being pushed:

  1. The Golden Serpent’s Spit Gold: The damage is half of dps’s hp on +15 Tyrannical before reduction every 3 secs which is really really hard to heal even for a 380 healer.

  2. The minibosses room after Golden Serpent: On Fortified, this is time-consuming because of the minibosses’ hp and the slightly long downtime between them.

  3. Embalming Fluids: These mobs are the easiest in the dungeon however its casts hurt the caster especially when there are 10+ of them in combat.

  4. Trashes between Mchimba and Council of Tribes: Usually 2 packs are pulled at a time if suitable to progress faster, but not in Kings’ Rest. Despite the nerf to Berserker, it still deals a chunk of damage to the tank with its dot.

  5. Kula the Butcher’s Severing Axe: I want to see its damage nerfed or its duration nerfed because of how ridiculous it is. It deals 100k before any damage reduction every 2 secs on a 15 tyrannical. We always have to use Lust and Brez on this phase of bosses instead of King Dazar and it’s annoying because on paper, King Dazar is a longer fight and more painful for healer.

  6. King Dazar: The downtime of Quaking Leap and Blade Combo are very short, required a lot of healer focus on high key. Combined with the high hp of this boss and his 2nd dino pet, healer will have trouble manage mana, but we can’t lust on him because as I mention above, Kula is ridiculous on high Tyrannical key. I want to see their downtime increased a little bit or Dazar’s hp reduced so healer can have a breathing room.

18 Likes
30

I’ll second this as well. I know I can’t say much about m+ as I’ve only done mythics, but essentially the trash pack size isn’t going to differ in regards to aggro. Even the most careful of groups that I’ve led as a tank have a tendency to accidentally pull if anyone strays from following my exact pathing. And should I need to move quickly away, my options are extremely limited as I run the risk of aggroing another group, versus Legion where I had ample room to avoid something placed on the ground, without fear of grabbing additional mobs. Sometimes its either I stand there and take whatever nasty is about to hit me (wasting a precious defensive CD in the process) or I risk aggroing another group. Either way could potentially result in a wipe that is largely unavoidable.

4 Likes
31

I feel some mobs really need arrows to see where they are firing shots (similar to the archers in the Healer Challenge in Legion).

There are so many spell effects and I strain to even see where the boss is facing. Eg. the 2nd boss in Shrine. Or those archers in Temple. In the past bosses were gigantic so we can see where they are going to cleave. The 2nd boss of shrine is often hidden by all the spell effects. As melee sometimes I just run away because I can’t see so I can’t reposition.

This goes the same for spell effects. I don’t understand why can’t you make the colouring contrast more for things we need to avoid (such as first boss in TD). Sometimes I just can’t see the things to avoid that stuns me because spell effects hide those mounds.

Trying to completely obscure the effect is very annoying.

11 Likes
32

Feedback inquiries are welcome of course but I worry when devs can’t figure out on their own why a clearly not fun game mode is not fun (and this is coming from someone who cleared M15s in Legion).

Let me turn this around on you for a sec, Ythisens. What do you personally think was wrong with M+ dungeons at the start of BFA? How far did you progress both before and after the changes? And do you think the changes fixed all of your concerns to a satisfactory degree?

Knowing whether or not CMs/devs think BFA was a good xpac at launch and in its current state will go a long way towards determining my future Blizzard purchase decisions. Thank you.

5 Likes
33

If tab-targeting could be adjust specifically for this affix (exploding, or whatever… the orbs), it would go a long way to helping.

Subjectively, it seems like this might already be the case, tabbing seems to frequently move directly to an exploding orb. If not, this would help. Otherwise, the success of this affix depends largely on how well one can click a target plate. Maybe, another idea, would be to use that affect that important NPC’s have… the one that lets you see and click them even through other ‘clickable’ objects, so that one can actualy click the orbs themselves “in the world” instead of having to find a nameplate.

Some affixes are out of line with difficulty between each other. Bolstering, for instance, slows the dungeon waaaay down and requires alot of different strategies to deal with. That’s actually fine, but the oddity is with comparing to other weeks’ affixes, with something like quaking / bursting, the difference in challenge is massive.

Temple changes were welcome. Some boss abilities on tyrannical, like the “coil of snakes” was just hilarious on high keys. It was a 2-second death previously.

Some dungeons are still much harder. The 2nd boss on Shrine, with the stacking debuff from the casts, seems much harder than other bosses. Even on lower key levels( like ~ 11-12), it requires coordinating 3+ interrupts closely, and minor mistakes are instant death. Like above, that’s actually fine that it takes coordination and practice, it’s just that nearly all other bosses do not, placing it as a unique outlier in difficulty.

Some dungeons where the boss casts a directional ability, the way the NPC animation is designed, it’s actually a little hard to tell what direction they are about to cast in. The 1st boss on shrine has a rush, where the rush direction is actually about 20d off from the direction their face is pointing during the cast. The 1st boss in Temple (the 2 snakes), the tornado strike cast seems to sometimes go off in a direction other that it was cast in… like maybe 30% of the time, it’s not consistent. I’ve actually had the boss track me while casting the strike, then cast it back in the original direction they started the cast in.

Mobs pull through the floor, and pull through the walls in Tol Dagor.

The camera placement while in the cannons in Tol Dagor is less than ideal to me… It’s hard to tell, without using addons, what one is aiming at since the nameplates disappear even when set to “always show” at the zoom level the cannon puts you in.

In general, I like that there are some unusually hard challenges in some of the dungeons. It was fun to attempt Hyrja at +25 on Tyrannical weeks and see wtf you can do… I think it’s that, in those bosses, it’s a challenge that doesn’t seem overly punishing (like one person missing an interrupt on that 2nd shrine boss can be instant death since it’s hitting the whole group), nor were the bosses generally a “slog”. A number of bosses don’t have much going on, they just have 8 zillion health. Like, the 2nd boss in underrot is not in any way difficult except possibly for the tank, but it just goes on and on… Maybe make bosses hit harder like now, but the health increase on tyrannical is a little less… make it very challenging for a short-to-moderate duration, rather than low or medium difficulty for a long time.

4 Likes
34

I would love to see a set rotation for the council boss in KR

2 Likes
35

talking about the system as a whole, have you guys considered giving us something to do with the materials we get from the chest

i have stocked up hundreds of hydrocore and imagine i will have hundreds of the new material once the new season launches.

could we get some vendor that sells m+ only invis pots and other popular items for tidal/hydrocores?

11 Likes
36

It is set every week. It just rotates but same rotation each week.

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I realise that.

38

The debuff on third boss in King’s Rest last too long.

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Only complaints with Mythic+ is how we allow people to leave with no punishment of any sort. No other content in the game can not be refilled or restarted, and leavers have become an increasing problem with RaiderIO dominating the incentive structures and them refusing to add proper incentive for completing keys alongside upgrading keys.

I’m not sure how to fix this, but I find it really causes problems when you have a key that is particularly hard a certain week especially.

My first inclination is to say something like make it so keys don’t downgrade if some one leaves. Not sure if that is even possible to do, but either way, its quite frustrating to get half way through a dungeon, have some one leave, then have to do the exact same dungeon on a level lower.

Maybe the better option is to allow for some sort of reroll feature for keys?

I’d much rather there be some protection from leavers for my keystone, because at this point it feels like doing my own key is basically pointless depending what I get.

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40

I’d like to see ways to upgrade, downgrade, and reroll keys (even if it cost a currency to do so)

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41

My main is a 1700 Rio mage and i play 4 other classes at about a 1k score. So I’m obviously not insane at m+ but i dont think i can be considered terrible either.

First thing i notice about these dungeons. They take way more coordination to run smoothly. This is both a good thing and a bad thing. Its good if u have a set group but bad if u like to pug. I personally mostly run with guildies so i like that the dungeons are harder and require more coordination. on a side note most of these new requirement’s for comms could just come from the ghuun affix which i think is awful and just plain not fun to play around. Once its gone i think it should make m+ a lot more enjoyable as a whole.

The other main issue i have is just imbalance of the affix’s. id prefer the lesser affix’s (volcanic, tyranical + teeming, raging,) to be brought up in difficulty or the hard affix’s (necrotic, bolstering, fort + teeming) be brought down. It just feels like theres to much of a gap between the difficulty of different combos.

Bolster is just not fun. None elites shouldn’t bolster elites. these pack type’s of mini boss surrounded by small adds happens way to often. The 2 big dungeons for this are siege and shrine but there’s plenty of examples all over the place

Sanguine is the same but not as bad. I think there should be a cap on sanguine. Once it heals enough the puddle “depletes” so it can punish u a bit for miss playing but it doesn’t full heal 10 mobs cause one died at the wrong time.

Explosive is a fun mechanic i feel. Its just random. A lot of people say get rid of it but i feel its challenging and requires coordination so i like it. i just dont think it should spawn randomly. It should be on a timer like quaking so u can anticipate when you’ll have to deal with orbs.

Teeming should be the third affix to go along with fort and tyrannical. i think it changes how u pull the dungeon and thats basically how this teir of affix’s is suppose to work.

Fort, is just overturned compared to tyrannical, but tyrannical is less fun imo because its very stressful doing a 3-4 min dungeon boss were one mistake can wipe the whole group and scuff the key. Tyranical is probley fine at the end of the day. Fort obviously needs some tuning imo.

The only other thing i can mention is how poor i think class balance has been. having a rogue with shroud can be good. Frost mage with Roots on ghuuns / none elites who run is very important as well as slows. with this utility rogues and mages are also top on damage and i feel it create somewhat of a monopoly on the classes the community find are good. At the end of the day most classes are viable (other then enhance, feral, spriest) and u can make it work. Its just much harder without Brez’ rogue shroud and mage control.

Edit - I forgot to mention one thing. Specifically 2 dungeons, King’s rest and Temple, we can’t avoid going over the trash requirement’s of the key without using either invis pots or a rogue shroud. I think this is poor design. Some dungeons are open like Atal and freehold so its nice to be able to have different routes and pulls and skips to get good % and fast times. I think all dungeons should be open like these 2 are. Designed in such a way that u have multiple routes and options on how to pull the key.

I can see why u might want to have some dungeons that have fixed paths and if thats the case, fine but I just dont think u should HAVE to use some kind of skip to avoid over pulling the trash in the dungeon.

12 Likes