BLIZZARD!!! Read this woman’s post, this is good stuff!
I think another thing to be wary of are things that may cause a player to drop that isn’t willful on their part. It’s such a case-by-case basis thing. I understand that the majority of these experiences are a player getting salty and ragequitting, but I’d hate to see the guy who’s ISP dropped out to come back and be greeting by an absolute hamstringing penalty that may sap what may be little remaining playtime left for the evening after a day of work.
That wouldn’t happen enough to be a problem but that’s why I suggested a bonus for finishing the key instead of a penalty for leaving.
Oh boy, where to start…
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How easy it is to kill a keystone and ruin it for the week. There was a safety net when you could discard keys before that is gone now. Plus some keys on some weeks are simply undoable. There has to be a way to change keys, because no one wants to stick around through a brutal dungeon after time is blown to help someone else get a different key. There also needs to be a safety net of some sort on key level. It just feels awful to get a string of bad luck with people screwing up or just quitting, causing you to lose a level, and find yourself sitting on a keystone 2 or 3 levels below what you would consider your starting point.
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Gold costs in mythic plus need some sort of mitigation. The costs of repairs and consumables are absurd and no one wants to spend hours farming just to run dungeons.
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Trash is just too much. On fortified I generally find that almost every trash pack or pull is longer than the boss fights. Tyrannical feels right as far as trash boss time and difficulty balance, except for certain bosses I’ll address later.
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Affixes. It’s clear that tuning and design wasn’t done with affixes in mind. Grevious needs a page one rewrite. Bolstering - the cases of weak trash like AD birds or Shrine initiates buffing tougher mobs MUST go. With so many classes having virtually no ability to not do incidental aoe, these packs are just unnecessarily a nightmare. Explosive is awful, no one likes it, please just get rid of it. The multiplicative effect of some affixes needs to be considered and addressed. Teeming/Fortified, Tyrannical/Grevious etc.
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Timers on a few dungeons are just far too tight, shrine being the biggest offender. Very easy to fail a shrine timer even with good execution.
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Overtuned bosses. Gold spit on 1st boss of KR deals entirely too much damage, many healers just don’t have the throughput. Severing axe on 3rd boss is just ridiculous and it goes on forever. Last boss of SoB just goes on for too long and it’s too easy to lose people. Kills excellent runs all the time, even on fortified. Same with the last bosses of shrine and UR.
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Overtuned trash. Still too much to count. The mini bosses of KR remain the most egregious offenders. The dot from the berserkers has to be addressed. There are several pulls in AD that are ridiculous and hearken back to magisters terrace and needing 5 cc’s. The last trash pull of ML needs adjustment.
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Class balance. I actually happen to think specs are tuned pretty well damage wise. I’d bring almost any good player to M+ if damage was all I cared about. Its utility. So many classes and specs lack it, and nothing shows any sign of changing the supreme dominance of DH and rogue in this regard. AOE stuns and group stealth options need to be spread around more.
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Fair enough. I’ve only pushed into the +11-12 bracket thus far but I think if played correctly the class does well. I do have to kindly ask party members to cooperate though. For example for Vol’Kaal in AD, I ask range to dps their totems from the middle-ish of the area so my beacon of virtue hits more than 2 people. Little things like that go a long way to making my runs successful.
Glad your buddy is giving hpala’s a good rep though. Hopefully there will be more like him out there next season.
I played a good deal of M+ in Legion, but mostly in BFA just did my 1 key a week for the weekly. I went and did a few lower level M+s last night with some guildies alts to get a feel for it again and give some feedback.
In general (and I know this is going to be an unpopular opinion) I like the difficulty in most dungeons. I think the abilities and difficulty related to the trash mobs, especially on fortified, makes the dungeons interesting and I feel good knowing how to outplay certain mobs and affixes. I wish there were more spaces where you could skip mobs without using a rogue or an invis potion, since the invis puts your combat potions on a 10 min cooldown. In Legion my fav 2 dungeons were Eye of Azshara and Arcway- very different, but both do different things I love. EoA was open and gave a lot of different paths you could take, and Arcyway, I feel, had interesting and hard trash and I loved the novelty of going left or right first changing up week to week. So it would make sense that I also love Freehold and Waycrest Manor- and I do- but they feel like outliers in the dungeon pool.
Specifically I don’t like how restrictive the dungeons feel. There are many spots where you can get caught in a corridor and not have space to react to a mechanic, or you have no room to avoid a mob that you shouldn’t have to pull. I don’t know how to solve this other than just keeping it in mind for dungeons going forward. I know that it’s a problem people also have with Waycrest, but at least I feel for the most part that there is enough open space near those corridors to hop around into while pulling the packs in there, e.g. the courtyard where the second boss lives (and dies).
I’m also probably going to be unpopular here- but I like most all of the affixes just how they are. I even like explosive! I feels good to be a healer who can help deal with a mechanic that takes pressure off of DPS to target switch quickly. However Quaking interupting eating/drinking/rezzing and Grievous ticking at 90% health are very annoying and do nothing but frustrate the player. Quaking interrupting these things just arbitrarily adds 10 seconds to your run because you got bad RNG while getting mana or resurecting a dead teammate. As for Grievous- the player health pools vs capable HPS of healers outside of cooldowns are not the same as they were in Legion. Heals, in general, hit for less than they did percent wise in Legion. But at the same time, there are hardly any instances where a player will get hit by something that does less than 10% of their max hp. This means that on Grievous weeks you need to be able to instantly top people or else you get behind fairly quickly. In Legion I felt like Grievous presented a fun challenge as a healer, to prioritize people who were going to take more damage soon and to quickly get the DoT off of them, but other people you could let sit for a while and then top them up individually. Now it feels like without using a cooldown I fall behind far too quickly. So either I would reduce the rate at which Grievous stacks, or make it not start stacking until someone falls below 70% health. The only other problem I have with any other affixes is when Teaming and Fortified are up together, but I think that’s a pretty universal gripe.
TLDR: Going forward dungeons should feel more open, have bigger hallways, and ways to skip unnecessary trash without a rogue. I want rogues and invis pots to be useful- say skipping a difficult pack in favor of killing a less dangerous one that is out of the way later- but I don’t think groups without rogues should be required to burn a 10 minute potion CD to not kill over 100-105% trash in a dungeon.
Quaking should not interrupt out of combat resurrections, eating, or drinking. That’s it. Fix this and the affix is fine. It feels bad to get halfway through a res cast or get to 40% mana and then be interrupted by something that feels totally random.
Grievous should stack slower (I’m aware it already got an increase in 8.1, but still feels very punishing given the HPS of a healer versus the health pools they’re healing) or not start ticking until they player is at 70% health.
Thank you for having this thread. It is nice and reassuring to see the devs visibly collecting feedback, I hope we can help you make the game the best it can be.
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I don’t get insta declined, but it feels bad when people pull and don’t realize I can’t just revival out of a bad pull. I feel like for the most part tanks don’t consider the healer when they pull a dungeon and how to play differently with different healers. I have to play differently with different tank classes, but for the most part I think a tank (at least in a pug) will pull the same dungeon the same way every time, no matter the level, group comp, or affixes- and that causes problems. I hope us holy paladins get better with gear. It would feel great if we could get about 15% more crit, I think it would solve a lot of the inconsistency problems that we run into in M+.
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M+ are soo toxic why not just make a “looking for mythic+” option and have a ilvl requirement per mythic+ 1-10 … it would eliminate IO raider and these awful 3rd party apps that have moved the game to make it far worse
and have a “rated” mythic+ for the pros that love to rush and crap on each other if someone dies … maybe have a cosmetic vendor for them since they love toot their horns and beat their chest because they do meaningless +20 mythics ![:roll_eyes:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/roll_eyes.png?v=6" ":roll_eyes:")
lol
oh and keys … no more keys …
Nothing feels worse than when holy shock doesn’t crit. It’s like a punch in the gut. I’ve been told hpala’s scale well with gear. Hopefully with more crit rating next season some the issues we have will be solved.
We do. 50% crit in Legion felt amazing, but it also made is kind of OP. It’s a tough situation. Holy Shock crits make our HPS go way up, so it feels bad when they don’t crit. But if you make them crit all the time then it is way too strong. But if you make it weak enough that it works fine when it crits 9 out of 10 times, then when it is only criting 5 out of 10 times it feels like you can’t even compete on HPS. I don’t know a good fix, I don’t want them to retune Holy Shock every patch, and I like the feeling of growth my character gets when I gain crit over an expansion. It just means that until the mid point of the expansion we feel kind of weak, but at the end we feel super powerful.
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Groups would be a disaster to form for higher keys if there wasn’t a tool like raider . io. Just because you aren’t invested in a game mode doesn’t mean they are “awful” or “toxic”
Class Utility is definitely an issue in M+. Rogues and DH have god mode damage. They have cc, they have immunities, they have burst damage, they have integral abilities to speed up trash/completion (spectral/shroud).
Have you actually done Sanguine keys without a DK to force position things? Holy F it’s annoying. I think Sanguine is more of an overall design issue with mobs and tight spaces in most BfA dungeons, but classes having abilities to deal with how many mobs don’t move is also limited.
Then you have a whole bunch of classes who basically bring nothing to the group but their damage and maybe a mediocre stun. Compared to Rogues or DH, who do more damage anyway (lol) AND bring every other tool you could possibly want. Oh, you mean class design sucks in BfA? Yes, yes it does.
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raider IO proves nothing and can be easily manipulated its a awful way to gather ppl
you took 1 thing out of my post , did you read anything else or just decide to defend IO ?
i said kill keys … make a “rated” tier for mythic+ anything over 10 … make a random lfg for mythic+ with ilvl req. 1-10
it is toxic - unless you had never played with random ppl EVER in mythic+ everyone playing that certain play style (go go go rush one person dies everyone leaves = killed keys)
It proves literally and objectively what keys a player has completed and whether or not they completed them on time or not. It cannot be “easily manipulated” because there is nothing to manipulate: either you’ve completed the dungeon on time or you haven’t.
M+ is a time trial mode. If you don’t like time trial modes, don’t do it. Complaining about “go go go” while you are VOLUNTARILY joining time trial game modes is stupid.
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easily manipulated = hop onto a pay site to run you , complete some high lvl keys , learn absolutely nothing and expect carries that result in burnt keys for everyone
yes this happens many people dont do this … sadly many people do
No. Just no. The amount it would cost to get the sheer number of runs needed to build a decent score is pretty ridiculous. Even then, people evaluating you can see how many total runs you’ve times. If someone has timed fewer than 20 runs in the 10 to 14 range I usually give them a closer look to see how hard they worked for their score before inviting. There are a few people who slip through the cracks, but the bottom line is raider .io is an effective resume of your dungeon experience. If you’ve got a better method, we’re all ears. People use these techniques because they get results, and if you show me something that will get me better results, I’ll switch to it without hesitation, as will the rest of the playerbase.
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It’s pretty easy to spot carries using io if you look at a person’s overall key progress before inviting them. I’m not even “pro” at barely 1000 io and this was one of the first things I learned to look for as I pugged past the io hell that is 6 to 9 keys.
Also gonna need some kinda data to back up this quote if you expect people to believe it.
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sorta like how people used to and still do buy gold … its not a secret hell blizz lets em advertise in trade channel 24/7 and in LF mythic premades
i responded to one in chat and i asked how much gold for a run? cuz i was close to 1mil during the gathering/herbalist boom , he replied …no not gold,plz goto “said website” for cheap prices …
then i reported oc
but yes these things go on,cant believe you havent seen em tbh
People spamming trade and group finder for carry services does not mean that many people are actually buying said carries for gold or other means.
While I agree people might buy carries for achieves or a weekly chest, I doubt many people are buying enough carries to have a decent io score then use that score to sneak into legit 10+ keys
Yes, people try to manipulate rating / achievement systems in all facets of the game (not exclusive to M+). Attempted manipulation of said rating systems doesn’t invalidate the need or value of them. Using iLVL as the only criteria for a Mythic+ group finder as you suggested the only gate is even more problematic.
As always, when you evaluate players, rating systems, iLVL, logs are just some of the indicators you use. Reality is as the type of content gets harder and the skill requirements get higher, people are going to find ways to screen whatever those are. And people that can’t naturally meet those requirements may try to game the system. None of this is surprising or a revelation.
All of that said, I would like for Blizzard to roll Mythic + rating into the game much like PvP rating. As it is clear a scoring system is integral to the functioning of the M+ system, it would be great to have that scoring system in game rather than external to it. An in game rating system would also provide a mechanism to track in-game achievements, seasonal titles, rewards, etc.
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