Feedback: Monks

[Bobtheyak-dalaran]

@Freestregion-tichondrius

And why would you think so. When rated battlegrounds would be so popular, why do they remove it from the game? You act like that many people will enjoy some battlegrounds with rating, but I doubt that.

Seeing as this is the monk feedback thread and I just wanted a 1 second reduction on Peaceweaver I won’t get too much into it, but random solo queue is completely different from getting a group of 10 people together at once to do a battleground. Even solo queuing arena shuffle is far more popular than getting a mere 1 or 2 other people to play 2v2 or 3v3, and shuffle is plenty toxic itself

Let me reiterate my point because this has turned into forum pvp after one specific suggestion because, y’know…people on the internet love to argue about nothing for some reason.

I request that the magic immunity provided by Peacewaver pvp talent be reduced to 1 second instead of 2. Thank you

[Garuda-lightnings-blade]

@Amamonk-illidan

it was always horrible to press and felt bad when it was used.

It’s still horrible to press because it’s an awkward cast time wedged into a fluid melee rotation. Buffing its damage is good, but that still didn’t make it feel good to press. All that’s happened now is they’ve removed our ability to use it from range, making it feel even worse.

[Zenetta-proudmoore (Zenetta)]

@Bobtheyak-dalaran

With solo queue rated blitz looking to be the dominant form of rated pvp

@Bobtheyak-dalaran

healer meta

If solo queue becomes the dominant form of rated PvP I think that would mean there will never be a meta because you can’t control what classes you end up with? There naturally is also less coordination when you solo queue. I doubt the majority of people even have Blizzard’s voice chat turned on.

[Amamonk-illidan]

@Linxy

Shado-Pan (Windwalker/Brewmaster)

• Damage required to accumulate a Flurry Charge increased.
  • Developer’s note: We’re happy with the change to Attack Power as the primary driver for Flurry Charge generation, but the current tuning was generating charges too quickly and leaving little room for skilled player to differentiate themselves. We will continue to keep a close eye on this and appreciate your feedback.

You need to address the damage output. For a Hero Talent it only produces 1-2% damage comapred to other hero talents on virtually every other spec thats 10-20% damage output.

Brew specifically the damage is horrendous and you default to Master of Harmony Hero node

[Dirus-ashkandi]

…and here we go. Devs where looking like they understood Brew/WW finally and then they go bad to showing they really don’t.

WW and Brewmaster cannot spend the flurry charges in the way the tree itself clearly says it should be. There are three different buffs in the Shadowpan tree that CANNOT be used properly the way flurry works right now.

Please read what every single monk on this thread, every discord, reddit post and anything else wow monk related has said.

THE ENGERY COST DOESN’T WORK

A stacking AGI buff with flurry doesn’t matter because WE CAN’T STACK IT

Blackout kick buffing Flurry? nice. Too bad we get many more Blackout kicks than flurry… many… many more.

Wisdom of the wall can buff flurry… too bad the buff to flurry often wont do anything at all since we can’t actually proc flurry again.

[Equinoxmonk-sargeras]

@Linxy

Damage required to accumulate a Flurry Charge increased.

• Developer’s note: We’re happy with the change to Attack Power as the primary driver for Flurry Charge generation, but the current tuning was generating charges too quickly and leaving little room for skilled player to differentiate themselves. We will continue to keep a close eye on this and appreciate your feedback.

the issue is still the amount of time it takes to spend stacks and the damage the stacks deal. 400 energy is too long and makes the other talents in the tree that require flurry strike spending to be very weak and low uptime

[Dirus-ashkandi]

@Equinoxmonk-sargeras

the issue is still the amount of time it takes to spend stacks and the damage the stacks deal. 400 energy is too long and makes the other talents in the tree that require flurry strike spending to be very weak and low uptime

Quoting because he is nicer than I am…

Also I forgot to add in my little rant that there are talents in the WW tree that reduce/refund chi costs so that is the opposite of what the Shadopan tree wants.

[Jårrod-stormrage]

@Linxy

Shado-Pan (Windwalker/Brewmaster)

• Damage required to accumulate a Flurry Charge increased.
  • Developer’s note: We’re happy with the change to Attack Power as the primary driver for Flurry Charge generation, but the current tuning was generating charges too quickly and leaving little room for skilled player to differentiate themselves. We will continue to keep a close eye on this and appreciate your feedback.

So based on the actual beta tuning, this change actually does nothing to gameplay. It went from 350% AP to 425% AP plus Vers. After testing, a single FoF still gives 7 stacks.

The note here about the change is just weird and completely misses the mark on the issues with Flurry Strikes. Flurry strikes just doesn’t make sense in pair with the other Shado Pan talents. Like look at Against All Odds. It stacks off of Flurry hits, but it stacks up to 20 stacks. Like how does it make sense to have this talent but then cap Flurry Strikes to 10 stacks.

I think if Blizz wants to make Flurry feel good, make the charges go out more frequently, and then do tuning based on that. Like for WW, just make charges be used every 10 or so combo strikes. Let the output be consistent. Let Wisdom of the Wall be able to overlap multiple buffs at times. But in my opinion, as long as this cap remains and charges take nearly 30-40 seconds to use, Shado-Pan will just be a confusing mess of design.

[Serenitynow-thrall]

Shado pan sucks if you only have 9 stacks, so any “differentiation” just makes the talent not worth playing if you cant hit 10 stacks

if you want differentiation then uncap stack generation? seems pretty simple

overall its still just a stupid hero talent tree but w/e

[Trillm-illidan]

@Linxy

MONK

• Hero Talents
  • Shado-Pan (Windwalker/Brewmaster)
    • Damage required to accumulate a Flurry Charge increased.
      • Developer’s note: We’re happy with the change to Attack Power as the primary driver for Flurry Charge generation, but the current tuning was generating charges too quickly and leaving little room for skilled player to differentiate themselves. We will continue to keep a close eye on this and appreciate your feedback.

I think this change was necessary, however I am still concerned for the Shado-Pan tree as a whole. Even with this change in place, Fists of Fury almost caps out Flurry Strike charges on a single target, which are still capped at 10. I feel that this still does not address the main concerns plaguing the way Shado-Pan plays in practice from a Windwalker’s perspective.

Let’s start with how Flurry Charges are spent. Flurry Charges are only unleashed by spending 400 Energy, which is about every 7 Tiger Palms. This is not simply every 14 seconds, not only due to our Energy generated per second even with high amounts of Haste, but due to the way we spend Chi, especially during Storm, Earth, and Fire. Tiger Palm isn’t always casted every other global cooldown.

The reason this is such a big issue is that unless it takes millions of damage to generate a Flurry Charge, we will nearly always reach and sit at 10 stacks for an extended period of time before we unleash all Flurry Charges.

Furthermore, one of the main Wisdom of the Wall effects causes Flurry Strikes to deal an additional amount of Shadow damage to uncontrolled enemies within 6 yards of the target struck by the Flurry Strike. The reason this is an issue is because as long as unleashing Flurry Strikes requires 400 Energy to be spent, you are left with 2 options:

• Manage to spend only 9 Flurry Charges the first time you unleash them. This causes the Wisdom of the Wall buff to apply on the first Flurry Strike the next time you unleash them (assuming you unleash 10), making the following 9 charges of Flurry Strike deal the Shadow damage IF you get the associated effect.
• Try to spend an additional 400 Energy to unleash Flurry Charges again in the 20 second Wisdom of the Wall buff window.

Going in order, I feel that having to attempt to intentionally go out of your way to unleash your Flurry Charges at an otherwise inopportune time just to try to get a benefit out of a semi-random Wisdom of the Wall buff seems like more of an oversight than anything. Similarly, having to intentionally change the way you do damage to a sub-optimal way of spending Energy to try to benefit from it also seems like a poor goal. This leaves me with more questions than answers.

Are Flurry Charges designed based on only having one target to attack? How many are we supposed to generate on one target by the time we unleash them? What about 2, 3, or 5+ targets? How often are we supposed to be able to unleash them? How impactful are the Wisdom of the Wall effects supposed to be? These are probably questions that are going to be left unanswered, but I feel they are all issues that need to be addressed.

As it stands now, 3 of the 4 Wisdom of the Wall effects are very difficult to get much benefit at all from (2, 3, and 4 on the tooltip). The Flurry Strikes themselves don’t contribute much to your damage at all, and most of the benefit of the tree comes from the passive Haste from Veteran’s Eye.

I really hope that Shado-Pan continues to get more attention as the Beta continues!

[Jadewindsung-moon-guard]

MW:one hero talent working
WW:one hero talent working
BM:one hero talent working

[Dirus-ashkandi]

Haven’t tested MW so wont talk about that but its really sad that WW and BrM both have really interesting options with one hero talent tree and the other is not only mostly useless but it provides no flavor of any kind at all… You can’t really see a difference between a retail level 70 monk and level 80 Shadowpan monk.

Its had to believe how bad that design is honestly and I don’t understand how it keeps getting ignored since the big flaws where pointed out the day the Shadowpan tree was first revealed. Monks didn’t even need to test it to know it didn’t work.

[Hearthvader-aggramar]

I like the concept of shado-pan. It just feels like the impact of flurry strikes isn’t there in the limited testing I’ve done.

[Finbalfis-frostmourne]

@Linxy

“leaving little room for skilled player to differentiate themselves.”

lol like what does this even mean. The skill of near instant capping stacks? the skill of spending 400 energy?

We get it, the energy requirements are there to stop it being op in AOE but it makes most of the talent tree pointless and is not engaging at all.

I wish they would remove the energy spend component, beef up the damage requirements, have damage beyond one target contribute less, and have them auto execute at 10 stacks. All those talents amplifying damage input in to the equation are useless when the skill is ultimately gated by energy gains.

[Amamonk-illidan]

Shado Pan Flurry strikes still bugged. At least on Brew specs and needs revamped least for brew or least modifers for brew so it works bit differently thatn WW.

On brew still takes me less than 10 seconds to get 10 stacks… And compared to Mastery of Harmony my damage is like 1-2% of my overall damage. Nobody in their right mind would pick this hero talent over the other.

Its either not working as intended still or spending 400 energy on brew is just too much energy to spend. Your spenders on brew for energy are Keg Smash and Tiger palm and spinning crane kick

You might as well make it proc at 100 energy with the damage it does to even compete with Master of Harmony let alone any other specs Hero talent.

[Koyanskaiya-malganis]

Does the passive chi wave still trigger mystic touch? I use with zen pulse on live right now to apply mystic touch when mistweaving at range.

[Katebrew-tichondrius]

@Amamonk-illidan

On brew still takes me less than 10 seconds to get 10 stacks… And compared to Mastery of Harmony my damage is like 1-2% of my overall damage. Nobody in their right mind would pick this hero talent over the other.

Shado-pan in it’s entirety does not in any way deal 1-2% of your overall damage. Flurry Charges/Strikes themself do an incredibly small amount of damage, but you’re either completely misrepresenting the talent tree or forgetting that you’re gaining the following from the perspective of BrM.

• Permanent 10% haste (bugged, not the best stat, but it’s a lot of stat)
• 10% armour pen
• 15% increased damage for KS, TP, SCK
• 30% increased damage for KS
• Ramping agi (up to 10%) for 7s every 30-40s
• 20% increased critical damage from BOK
• 10% permanent DR

To say that all of those effects are exceptionally potent is an EXTREME understatement.

=====================

In general though, I do agree with many of the complaints that people have w.r.t Flurry Charge stacking being too fast and the direct power of Flurry Charges feeling exceptionally weak. I am also concerned that if we ever hit the energy trigger threshold before we hit the Charge cap reliably on lower or even moderate target counts, we may experience some pretty nasty super-linear scaling, which is definitely something that I’d prefer not having to be concerned about.

[Bobtheyak-dalaran]

@Jadewindsung-moon-guard

MW:one hero talent working
WW:one hero talent working
BM:one hero talent working

This seems to be the case with some other classes as well. My rough theory that has no real basis is that they originally tailored certain hero talent trees to clearly be better for certain specs and now they have the task of making the ‘secondary’ hero talent tree be a viable alternative to the one they designed the spec around

[Zillidansan-turalyon]

For Shado-pan until the flurry strike “activation” is looked at the tree can’t really ever reach its full potential. I completely agree with the change to make flurry strikes harder to accumulate because sitting at max stacks constantly feels like you are wasting resources and that’s a bad feeling.

However, it has to be harder to gain flurry strikes but also easier to spend them. Having to do 7-8 Tiger Palms doesn’t really make sense since it’s an ability we aernt often hitting, especially in our cooldown windows. The way the tree is set up it makes me think that it’s being designed in a world where we hit Tiger Palm way more often than we do now.

The way Flurry Strikes are accumulated and especially dunked is the biggest problem with the loop. Not only does it feel like it takes ages to hit the energy threshold to dunk them, but it also feels like I’m just “waiting” to dump them and without addons it’s something impossible to track, so you probably just wouldn’t ever. Thats not a great feeling as if it felt like dumping Flurry Strikes actually did something, it’s something that you could plan around and dump into specific mobs to show off player skill this way. In its current form it’s random passive damage you’ll never think about. Great if you enjoy the base Windwalker experience I guess but Conduit offers more meaningful gameplay changes.

[Jaisenfist-area-52]

simple way to fix flurry strikes => change 400 energy into “spend 20 chis”, makes more sense since we have way more abilities that uses chi instead energy.