Feedback: Keeper of the Grove in The War Within

Classes Druid
122

I think the hero talents are looking good for a first draft. I think you should do more with relevant untapped warcraft druid assets like dryads.

What concerns me most for Boomie is the eclipse system. PLEASE remove its current iteration for something more fun, engaging, and less rampy.

Don’t make someone cast the opposite of what they want. Make the “balance” fantasy play in some other way like you did with SOD, for example.

Even the BFA version was better than what we have now, albeit was also a bit boring.

By removing its current iteration for something more streamlined, you could make the hero talents lean harder i to what it seems they are trying to achieve (more instant casting keeper and more hard casting elune’s).

123

This is one of the big things all the Druid hero talent trees are lacking. Something to bring the FEEL of the class fantasy into the game. It goes 1000% for Wildstaker druid since that tree is so boring overall, to not even have cosmetics makes it fail completely.

1 Like
124

Wildstalker virtually gives you a blood vines proc, it’s the only druid tree that actually gives something visually new to the spec, and entirely inkeeping with feral using bloody thorns and vines to mix with the bleeds theme, since druids don’t just shapeshift but use the power of nature, a long forgotten aspect of the class for everyone but resto druids.

Meanwhile Keeper of the Grove and Chosen of Elune give virtually nothing new aesthetically to the specs. Especially balance druid. Just a recycled new/half moon cleave proc and virtually nothing for the keeper of the grove.

The trees are all boring, unimpactful passives that don’t change rotations or insert new spells/interesting procs/mechanics because druid is cursed by the hybrid design where blizzard doesn’t want to design new mechanics and procs for all its specs, so they instead put boring “x extra rage or y extra ap or z extra damage” on already existing abilities and call it a day to fit all specs involved in the tree.

How can someone look at frostfire mage, diabolist warlock, or scalecommander and think keeper/elune trees are anywhere near as quality in gameplay expansion and kit improvement as those for mage/evoker/warlock?

125

Resto one-trick main since Cata. I don’t post on the forums, but it seems necessary here.

Respectfully, the double-down on grove guardians is deeply troubling, and I cannot understand why you are re-working the entire spec around an ability that is despised by a significant portion (if not a majority) of resto-mains. This season (10.2 & 10.2.5) is the first time I’ve not enjoyed the spec in over a decade, and it’s particularly frustrating given that the Grove Guardians disaster comes immediately after arguably our best build in years in Season 2.

Seeing you double-down on such a terribly unfun playstyle has me contemplating changing my main for the first time since I made my druid in Cataclysm. Grove Guardians was only introduced this season, to an awful reception at that; why is it now the centerpiece of our spec? There are plenty of other druid-themed abilities from prior expansions to tap into, my personal favorite being Bloom (which stored our overhealing and, when cast, released it on everyone inside efflo). Bloom felt great to play with. Grove Guardians just feels terrible.

I hate being negative here, I really do. For what it’s worth, I’ve loved this expansion until this tier. In fact, it might be my favorite expansion since Wrath (I started at the end of BC). I’ve also been positively thrilled with all of the fantastic quality of life changes the team has made beginning way back in 9.2.5. I’m genuinely excited about WoW and it’s future, for TWW, and for the whole World Soul Saga.

I’m so proud of everything you guys have done to turn things around, and I’m genuinely excited about everything WoW has in store for us; everything except playing the class and spec I’ve loved for over 10 years.

We are not a pet class, and this playstyle isn’t fun or rewarding. Our throughput has been bottlenecked by an ability that is both RNG and proc-dependent. It’s not rewarding when it goes well, and it’s insanely frustrating when the RNG fails or the procs arent there. I CANNOT STRESS THIS ENOUGH: IT JUST FEELS AWFUL.

Please don’t go through with this. Launch Grove Guardians into the sun.

3 Likes
126

Honestly feedback like this makes very little sense to me. I get that you don’t like Grove Guardians, that’s fine. But your whole post reads a little… hyperbolic. You’re aware that you don’t have to choose Keeper of the Grove, right? Wildstalker looks like it’s going to give more of the nature-caster HoTs style gameplay that you’d likely enjoy even if you don’t dip in to the catweaving aspects of it. (Granted I think the Wildstalker tree is the worst of the revealed Druid trees but after seeing the feedback to it I expect it to be reworked.)

The reason Keeper of the Grove is based around Grove Guardians is because it’s based on the Keeper of the Grove hero from Warcraft 3, whose signature spell was Force of Nature to summon trents. Since that style of flavor is one of the main design points of hero talents and Keeper of the Grove is one of the more iconic sets they’ve announced, that’s unlikely to change. You’d be better off suggesting changes to the Grove Guardians talent to address your pain points rather than trying to get the entire concept reworked wholesale.

And worst comes to worst, I sincerely don’t understand why changing mains is a more attractive option to you than just taking Wildstalker instead.

5 Likes
127

My biggest concern as Resto is the dps side of things, while Wildstalker greatly encourages Kittyweaving and really doubles down on that certain playstyle, with several nodes that truly outshine anything remotely in Keepers of the Grove damage wise for Resto.

Wildstalker giving a flat out 5% buff in cat form, 10% damage Moonfire and Sunfire all in one node, and several nodes excelling Bloodvines aswell as Symbiotic Blooms helping both DPS and Healing.

Keeper of the Grove has barely anything to support the dps side as Resto, especially considering they specifically mention Force of Nature and Grove Guardians being separate abilities rather then “Treants summoned” to include Resto in the dps portion.

I’m just concerned if left as is, firstly Owlweaving is going to be a playstyle forgotten in the past and M+ is going to insanely favour Wildstalker due to its dps output being insanely higher, Kittyweaving is already a higher performing playstyle.

Using Grove Guardians doesn’t give us Dream Burst, as it seems only to be tied to Force of Nature from how it’s written, I may be wrong, but Bloodvines from how it’s written looks like it definitely will work with Kittyweaving.

Unless Treants of the Moon, the Moonfire from Treants, as mentioned “Treants” so not tied to specific Grove Guardians or Force of Nature, hits like a truck I can definitely see it struggling in M+ content where every little dps matters a lot more.

Edit: Maybe Grove Guardians gives only one charge of Dream Burst per Grove Guardians summoned stacking to 3, and Force of Nature gets Dream Petals when using Force of Nature?.

Maybe a node increasing Moonkin Damage to further encourage Owlweaving during healing Downtime?. This way as Resto each Hero Spec promotes both playstyles, Kittyweaving (Wildstalker) and Owlweaving (Keeper of the Grove).

2 Likes
128

The treants are awful game play and for balance at least for this hero talent tree is out shadowed heavily by the Elune tree. If anything this tree is the lesser of all the hero talent tree’s for druid, there is no synergy there is no fun elements in it, there is no game play changing plans. Its just bad and it will be ignored by majority of the community. It needs a rework from the ground up. Remove every node and start again. Synergize like the wildstalker tree does. Have wrath and sunfire focused as well as nourish and some hard cast heals.

3 Likes
129

Keeper of the grove (the original unit this tree is based on) also had tranquility and thorns aura as it abilities (and root but its getting a honorable mention in booming) with tranquility actually being it a ultimate not treants

While i cant think of a way to give balance a tranquility, i do think thorns aura: updated with damage and attack speed slow on hit or guardian brambles light absorb and reflect as a party aura would be a good utility node option; maybe as a replacement of protective growth which seems very underwhelming now that we have more defensive nodes to compare it to inside and out of the class.

Also i think the treants should explode when they die similar to the old mushrooms, have it do some extra healing and damage in like 20yards around them, maybe a dot. Itd be more interactive then current treant passives because we could try to time their expirations around incomming damage or large packs spawning, and a good spell affect like the nymue staffs explosion could be tied to it so its visually exciting.

2 Likes
130

Treants are great for multiple reasons:

  1. They are thematically cool. Keeper of the Grove is an iconic hero and inspiration for WoW Druids. Summoning trees fits the nature caster theme to a tee.

  2. Treants are basically another HoT. They function as a HoT totem that can be customized with several talents and really fits with the Druid gameplay style of HoTs.

  3. You aren’t forced to take them. If you don’t like playing with little trees, you don’t have to choose keeper of the grove hero spec at all. Choosing to develop Treants in a hero talent tree makes a lot of sense given that some players don’t like them.

  4. There aren’t currently any pet healers in the game, so it’s pretty cool to have one. Maybe the Treants will gain some mobility in the future.

2 Likes
131

Even balance druids long for the days of more Warcraft 3 night elf druid themes with the treants, roots, insect swarm, mushrooms, and the green tinted wrath of old. Not every druid wants to be just a cosmic wizard, and having a hero tree with actual nature themed spells involved is great.

The problem is the treants need a redesign back to the old WoD model for balance druid much like they currently function for resto. The 1 min cd drop and forget taunt npc’s with melee and dumb AI pathing limitations doesn’t make for an engaging button press.

The tree should also amplify wild muhsroom and roots. It would also be a good opportunity to bring back the good old Hurricane spell as an aoe generator instead of using just starfire.

4 Likes
132

Reading the feedback and contemplating my own thoughts on it, I’ve come to the conclusion that I would like to see Keeper lean as hard into nature/astral as Elune’s does into arcane/astral. So here is some brainstorming:

  1. The idea of this tree being a shift away from cosmic wizard is a good idea. Don’t leave astral out but give us more nature (maybe by replacing spells).

  2. I think this tree having more “instant” spells would be a nice contrast to Elune’s Chosen, cosmic wizard casting.

  3. But with (2) said, just make it fun and interactive – yet NOT complicated. Just click and forget is not fun. Have treants as part of it but maybe not the main thing?

  4. Instead, have it feel more like a weaving of nature spells: mushrooms, treants, roots, wind, and swarms.

Some examples of (4):

4a) The updated adaptive swarm animation is amazing. Give it back to balance and utilize it in this hero talent tree to let both resto and balance play around it and other nature-themed spells.

4b) Bring back hurricane, change how it works (not a small circle placed somewhere but maybe a swirl around us like in Diablo 2 but with the range of starfall) and possibly let it replace starfall (to reduce button bloat). Make it astral damage. Starfall just has stars falling from the sky and it’s astral (nature+arcane) so hurricane could be, too.

4c) When hurricane is active, it empowers or interacts with the other nature spells like speed up the adaptive swarm and guaranteeing it to split. Wrath does an AOE splash. Treants could attack or cast more quickly. Any mushroom set off will deal increased damage.

4d) Roots could cause poison damage that lingers even after they are broken. And nature spells do not contribute to the breaking of roots and thus can do their full damage to rooted mobs/characters (since warlocks get to fear us and do insane amounts of damage without breaking it). So reg roots could be spammed but mass entangle would be a mini cooldown aoe damage ability with utility, too.

For resto, all of these that it already has would just be healing instead: swarm as it is, treants heal, root(s) an extra casted or instant aoe hot possibly that protects in some way more than just healing.

It may be an unpopular opinion, but it has seemed (and I’ve seen similar things mentioned) that at least for balance, it is stuck with the “balance” aspect in the center where we must use both spell schools and things like eclipse.

This isn’t bad but it can be limiting. The class/spec fantasy can still very much be fulfilled by allowing Keeper to lean into nature more fully with a vibe of overlooking a grove and some astral casting while Elune’s leans into massive arcane/astral casts and wizardry.

2 Likes
133

After looking at other class Hero trees and how there is a connection between all their specs, I’d like to see this moved to the center of the Druid flow diagram and connects all 4 specs.

I’m not against this tree and like it as an option, but use it as generic access for all specs especially if it fits into a player’s class fantasy. Could even bring the Faerie Dragon stuff into it where the focus is on the fauna side of druid fantasy.

Then develop a new connection between Resto/Balance with a focus on Wrath and nature-ish spells; shrooms, insects, storms, salves, etc.

But likely way past a change like that.

1 Like
134

I spend some time rethinking our KoTG hero talents (Mostly Moonkin) to be more fun and preserve the fantasy of the tree, here it is:

Only protective growth, blooming infusion and early spring remains the same

1 Row:

  • [Keystone] Dream Surge - When you enter solar eclipse you summon a treant. Your force of nature treants cast wrath.

  • [left] Devouring swarm - every 5 seconds your treants apply insect swarm to one of your enemies. (both)

  • [center] Nature’s Cycle - When a treant dies it casts wild mushrooms on your target location. (both)

2 Row:

  • [left] Power of Nature - Your Olkin frenzy also works on Wrath.

  • [left] Durability of Nature - Every 30 seconds you automatically apply rejuvenation on you.

  • [center] Cenarius’ Might - Your force of nature also summons an ancient of war. Occurs every 3 minutes.

  • [Right] Grove’s inpiration - Gains 5% haste on solar eclipse.

  • [Right] Photosynthesis - When you are on solar eclipse your Wrath have a chance to summon a treant to assist you in battle.

3 Row

  • [left] Bounteous Bloom - Increases your force of nature duration by 5 seconds.

  • [center] Power of the Dream - Your ancient of war increases the damage of your treants by 5%.

  • [center] Control of the dream - Your ancient of war casts mass entanglement, on your target, when summoned and when dies.

  • [Capstone] Harmony of the Grove - Each of your treants increases your versatility by 3%. (both)

135

(Was told to post this here over as it’s own comment) Maybe I am alone in this, but I feel as though there are not enough talents that add flavor to the idea of being a keeper of the grove. I know some people don’t like tree summoner but if thats the archetype, dive in.

Let me summon a big treant that casts Tranq for resto and Starfall for boomys.

Let my spells have a chance to summon wisps that travel the battlefield either damaging an enemy(refreshing their Dots) or healing an ally(refreshing a HoT).

Give me armor made of vines that when I am attacked summons a lasher that deals damage and slows nearby enemies.

If I am a Keeper of the Grove, let me keep all of the grove with me.

136

Nah, then you’d feel like a hero in this game.

137

Keeper of the grove fails to give any meaningful class identity. Treants are fine, but tying all of our power to it is not. Treants need to be small burst healing, not what our entire class focuses around.

Keeper of the grove would actually be a really nice class fantasy as a “summons class”. Replacing some of the current abilities with passives that summon creatures or animals would be a neat fantasy. Like when Lifebloom blooms you call upon the birds of the forest to speed your target by x%." “Your Ironbark summons a bear on your target, causing the bear to share 10% of the damage your target receives while active.” Just small things involving animals would be a really good class fantasy that we don’t have.

In D&D, which is what wow is based off, one of the druid specs centers around summoning animals and critters.

This would be a much nicer class fantasy than just summoning trees

1 Like
138

Now that all the Druid hero talents are out, I wanted to go back and do another review of this tree, in both Balance and Resto respect, and consider how they feel compare to their alternative hero spec option.

Keeper of the Grove vs Elune’s Chosen
First, the balance perspective. Keeper of the Grove and Elune’s Chosen each focus on one side of the Eclipse; Keeper of the Groves enhances nature spells such as Force of Nature, Wrath, and limited healing spells, while Elune’s Chosen focuses on raining down Elune’s Wrath and Moons. Currently, the only pure nature spells balance druid has access to are Sunfire, Wrath, Wild Mushroom, Rejuvenation, Regrowth, Swiftmend and Wild Growth, so it make sense for Keeper of the Grove to expand on some of these less used Nature spells, with a small opportunity to dabble in hybrid healing roles. whether for pvp or as emergency healing support. It is also worth mentioning that Convoke the Spirit casts partially Nature spell, so it could also be potentially interesting as an interaction to Keeper of the Grove talents. Elune’s Chosen also has access to Lunar Calling, which removes Solar Eclipse from the rotation, so perhaps buffing Nature spells to potentially crowd out Lunar Eclipse from the rotation is also an interesting path to explore.

With that in mind, I’d like to see a greater focus on the Nature theme, and avoiding interactions with Moonfire/Starfire for a more coherent overall theme. Mechanically, this could have the effect of raising the target threshold higher before we choose to enter Lunar Eclipse. I’d also like to see more cross play opportunity between Balance and Restoration to take advantage of the unique niche with spells like Adaptive Swarm, Convoke the Spirit and just Balance having some opportunity to trigger Grove Guardians occasionally and vice versa.

Keeper of the Grove vs Wildstalker
Now, the Restoration perspective. Based on previous feedbacks, the restoration community is at least partially divided on the issue of Grove Guardians becoming more prominent in healing power. Keeper of the Groves double down on the Grove Guardians, shifting even more power into the healing of the pet itself, as well as enhancing general healing during Grove Guardian windows. It’s also worth noting that Rejuvenation only appears once in the Keeper of the Grove talent, and seems to focus more on faster healing such as Regrowth/Swiftmend/Wild Growth and triggering Dream Petal for cleave healing.

Wildstalker, on the other hand, gives us another on-proc hot, much like Spring Blossom or Cultivation. Clearly the talents are aimed toward Catweaving, which is primarily done in dungeons only, but an additional HoT does contribute to raid healing, depending on its proc mechanism/frequency and whether it interacts with Mastery.

Currently the gut feeling is that Keeper of the Grove will end up much better for raid healing, despite the lack of Rejuvenation interaction, so a bit of a bad news for pet-resenting Restoration Druids, but perhaps changes down the line for Wildstalker could make it more viable for non-dungeon situations.

While the raid healing side for Keeper of the Grove seems already full, perhaps the potential DPS opportunities, often in keys, can be supported just by making some of these Balance-focused node also work for Restoration, and possibly support owl-weaving with Convoke

139

Here is a modified mock-up for what I imagined the Keeper of the Grove could be:

Keeper of the Grove Modified Mock up

Keystone: Dream Surge
Each Force of Nature grants 1 charge of Dream Burst, causing your next Nature or Astral spell to explode on the target, dealing Nature damage to nearby enemies. Damage reduced above 5 targets.
Grove Guardians causes your next targeted heal to create 2 Dream Petals near the target, healing up to 3 nearby allies. Stacks up to 5 charges.

Capstone: Harmony of the Grove
Each of your treants (Force of Nature and Grove Guardians) increases damage your spells deal by 3% and healing done by 3% while active. Treants spells benefit from your Mastery and prefers to casts on targets with Dots/Hots on them.

Middle Column: Dream Surge mechanics

Expansiveness
Your maximum mana is increased by 5%. Your leech is increased by 5%.

Cenarius’ Might
Every 3 casts of Starsurge or Starfall summons a Force of Nature treant.
Every 3 casts of Swiftmend summons a Grove Guardian treant.
Convoke the Spirit summons a Force of Nature and a Grove Guardian treants immediately.

Power of the Dream
Force of Nature grants an additional stack of Dream Burst.
Healing spells cast with Dream Surge generates an additional Dream Petal.

Control of the Dream
Force of Nature now has 2 Charges.
Dream Petals now only triggered automatically whenever a nearby ally falls under 35% health. You may have up to 10 Dream Petals at the same time.

Left Column: Treant Utilities/Functions

Treants of the Wild
Your treants cast Adaptive Swarm on your target when summoned.

Power of Nature
Your Force of Nature treants no longer taunt and now casts Wrath instead of melee attacking.
Your Grove Guardians increase the healing of your Regrowth, Efflorescence and Lifebloom by 5% while active.

Durability of Nature
Your Force of Nature treants have 50% increased health, When they die, they spawn a Wild Mushroom.
Your Grove Guardians’ Nourish and Swiftmend spell also apply a minor Cenarion Ward that heals the target over 8 sec the next time they take damage.

Bounteous Bloom
Your Force of Nature Treants generate 3 Astral Power every 2 sec.
Your Grove Guardians’ healing is increased by 20%.

Early Spring
Force of Nature cooldown reduced by 10 seconds.
Grove Guardian cooldown reduced by 3 seconds.

Right Column:

Protective Growth
While your Regrowth is on you, reduce all damage you take by 8%.

Grove’s Inspiration
Nature damage increased by 10%
Regrowth, Wild Growth and Swiftmend healing increased by 6%

Persistent Enchantments
Orbital Strike applies Stellar Flare for 6 additional seconds and Primordial Arcanic Pulsar grants Celestial Alignment for 2 additional seconds.
Reforestation grants Tree of Life for 2 additional seconds.

Blooming Infusion
Every Regrowth you cast reduces the cast time of your next Wrath, Rebirth or Entangling Roots by 20% and increases its damage by 20%. Stacks up to 5 times.
Every Starsurge or Starfall you cast reduces the cast time of your next Regrowth, Wild Growth, Rebirth or Entangling Roots by 20%. Stacks up to 5 times

140

My treants keep pulling mobs that we’ve passed by in M+ and it’s ruining everything!

141

i despite the trees and far from the best thing