Feedback: Keeper of the Grove in The War Within

[Jatts-area-52]

100000%%% this!

[Brambles-moon-guard (Brambles)]

I still think the Dream Petals miss. I think it would be a lot of fun if the petals for Keeper counted towards an empowered Treant or Ancient that acts like a healing or DPS CD after XYZ amount of petals burst. Let me summon something like Ivus - that feels heroic (obviously not the same size scale). If Keeper leans into druid being a psuedo-pet class, let us empower the trees, please.

[Sulum-area-52]

I feel like balance druids should also get the 3 charges of treants on a short cooldown like restoration does but only as Keeper of the Grove.

Then more could be done to proc and weave things with the hero talents and our base talents.

And since pretty much all content (pvp, m+, raids, and surely delved) require a lot of movement and moments where one can’t cast.

This would give us something to press more often and with more purpose while moving instead of just randomly reapplying dots to do something on the move. But also making up for lost casting time.

[Fangsong-proudmoore]

Don’t forget to add a Thorns Aura to Keepers of the Grove like in Warcraft III. It doesn’t have to be a huge percentage, but I’d enjoy them bringing that back.

[Antaris-emerald-dream (Antaris)]

If Blizzard is unwilling to give balance back MoP/WoD Treants like they did for Resto, then some things need to change for Moonkin Force of Nature for this tree to make sense.

1. Force of Nature needs to be a 30 second cooldown to bring it more in line with the short cd 3 charges of grove guardians.

2. Celestial Alignment / Incarnation should summon a Treant to attack a nearby enemy that we have dots on every 10 seconds similar to Resto Tree form.

3. They need to do more damage.

[Manwë-tichondrius]

Initial KotG feedback for Balance: Why Force of Nature treants are bad (right now).

As is seen in many of the above posts, a lot of balance druid players dislike Force of Nature treants as a keystone for this Hero tree and it’s because of two main reasons. Force of Nature does incredibly low damage and the treants have no synergy with the spec.

About 85 to 90% of the value from Force of Nature comes from the utility of having some pets that will aoe taunt trash mobs for you once a minute. Most of the rest of the value comes from the 20 astral power that you generate from pressing the button. That’s it. All that the treants do is auto-attack their target for very little damage and it doesn’t scale past a single target. Casting Force of Nature on top of 10 targets isn’t going to do any more damage than if you cast it on a single target. Also, Force of Nature does not scale with balance druid mastery at all.

Let me explain how little damage Force of Nature currently does in single target. I wanted to put out some numbers so I hit a raiders training dummy a lot while using some typical pve consumables that I would use in raid. Force of Nature did 0.6% of my damage on single target. The average damage per cast of Force of Nature was about 82k. The average damage per each melee attack from the treants was 3.3k. To compare that to some other spells that are cast a lot in a single target fight, my average cast of starsurge was 186k damage (not counting procs from power of goldrinn) and the average damage per cast of wrath was 54k. Force of Nature has a one-minute CD and does only single target damage without any synergy or procs and it isn’t even close to a single starsurge. Two average casts of wrath will together do more damage and generate more astral power. When I look at a hero talent like Power of Nature that increases the damage from Force of Nature treants by 20%, I wonder about that number because putting a 20% amplification on very little damage isn’t going to make it do anywhere close to decent damage.

Force of Nature damage is so bad that it is never taken even though the choice node it is on is almost always taken on single target raid fights. Everybody uses Warrior of Elune even when we’re wearing a 2-set that reduces the value of Warrior of Elune by a significant amount in many single target situations. In addition, even if KotG ends up being about as good as Elune’s Chosen, Force of Nature is harder to take in AOE situations. In order to take Force of Nature in an AOE situation (such as a dungeon) where you are using Starfall a lot and extending your dots, you would have to give up a talent point farther down the tree in order to take treants.

The obvious solution to most of these treant problems if you want to keep a hero tree centered around the use of treants is to put in some talents that are really going to add to the synergy of having treants active and increasing the number of things that the treants are doing. It also wouldn’t hurt to work in some more nature themes instead of just treants and some generic talents. Here are some additional themes that could be worked into the KotG tree: plants (and mushrooms), solar energy, more nature damage, and possibly other pets/guardians such as fae dragons or Ancients of War.

[Velyrco-tichondrius]

@Cantpossibly-tichondrius

Wonderful news PVP community! One of the worst new abilities in the game is being pushed hard via hero talents. So when the rare occurrence of a resto druid sitting in a few cc’s comes around, the AI pets can do even more work for you!

I actually love treants myself. Would love more skills and passive like them as well.

@Verdantsun-stormrage

Even balance druids long for the days of more Warcraft 3 night elf druid themes with the treants, roots, insect swarm, mushrooms, and the green tinted wrath of old

Indeed! I actually abandon my druid when they shifted us into the solar and lunar magic. I’ve always preferred the nature magic.

@Verdantsun-stormrage

Not every druid wants to be just a cosmic wizard

Exactly. I don’t even use the laser chicken form.

@Verdantsun-stormrage

It would also be a good opportunity to bring back the good old Hurricane spell as an aoe generator instead of using just starfire.

Yessssss. I would LOVE hurricane back!

@Sulum-area-52

The updated adaptive swarm animation is amazing. Give it back to balance and utilize it in this hero talent tree to let both resto and balance play around it and other nature-themed spells

I actually don’t like the updated adaptive swarm look. Looks very cartoony and 2d like lighting bolt. I do love the ladraxxus AS though and would love it back on Balance.

@Sulum-area-52

4c) When hurricane is active, it empowers or interacts with the other nature spells like speed up the adaptive swarm and guaranteeing it to split. Wrath does an AOE splash. Treants could attack or cast more quickly. Any mushroom set off will deal increased damage.

4d) Roots could cause poison damage that lingers even after they are broken. And nature spells do not contribute to the breaking of roots and thus can do their full damage to rooted mobs/characters (since warlocks get to fear us and do insane amounts of damage without breaking it). So reg roots could be spammed but mass entangle would be a mini cooldown aoe damage ability with utility, too.

give me give me

[Manwë-tichondrius]

Keeper of the Grove Node-by-node talent analysis:

Keystone:

Dream Surge: Dream Burst looks like it could have good potential but it would be better if each of the force of nature treants directly activated the dream bursts at the summon location instead of tying it to Wrath and Starfire. Dream Petals could be a problem depending on how it is implemented, especially if you have to walk over them to activate it, and it has no damage component. I think it would be best if both specs activated Dream Burst and if Dream Burst would do both damage to enemy targets and healing to friendly targets which would give some nice hybrid value.

Left Side:

Treants of the Moon: It could be good depending on how much damage it does and if each treant has their own moonfire (meaning up to 3 or more moonfires on the same enemy) but my main problem with this talent is that it’s off theme. Keeper of the Grove should be heavily themed around nature damage instead of arcane damage. It would be much better thematically if the treants would cast Insect Swarm instead. You could even add some old-school value by making Insect Swarm reduce hit chance by 4% like it used to in the past. Even sunfire would be better than moonfire thematically.

Power of Nature: It’s very lame for balance since it only buffs Force of Nature’s miniscule damage by 20%. It would be much better if it made the treants cast wrath dealing nature damage and thus gaining value from balance druid mastery. The restoration portion seems decent, but this should probably be the talent that increases grove guardians healing by 20% instead of Bounteous Bloom to keep it similar to the Balance portion of the talent. It could also cause the Grove Guardian HoTs to affect the resto druid mastery to create more synergy with the spec.

Durability of Nature: A talent designed to benefit the tanking utility (and survivability) of Force of Nature treants is nice, but just giving them more health seems a little boring and doesn’t bring any damage to the table. It would be better if it also gave the Force of Nature treants a thorns effect so that they could deal some nature damage to enemies when they are attacked. The nature damage could also be affected by balance druid mastery. For resto, the minor cenarion wards seem interesting depending on tuning, but I actually think the talent would be much more interesting and on theme if the grove guardians instead activated a minor Ironbark reducing damage taken by 5%. You could tie the Ironbark specifically to the Grove Guardian’s Swiftmend cast to keep them from activating a minor Ironbark with every nourish cast.

Bounteous Bloom: The Astral Power generation is actually kind of nice and should add some synergy into having Force of Nature treants active. The real question is if each treant is generating 3 astral power every 2 seconds or if it’s just 3 overall. That would massively swing the value of the talent from 15 to 45 astral power. 45 astral power would be very nice, but the talent seems like it would be too weak if it was only 15 astral power. The Grove Guardian healing increase seems off-theme for the talent and should probably be up in the Power of Nature talent. I think it would be much better if each grove guardian treant caused the resto druid to generate 2% or 3% mana over their duration or when they expire or die. This would help a bit with the mana problems that restoration druids always seem to run into.

Early Spring: I really dislike this talent. A 50 second Force of Nature cooldown brings Force of Nature away from the 60 second CD window which is often very valuable in PVE. It would also de-sync it by 20 to 30 seconds from your next CA/Incarn which is a problem if we’re looking at lining up the Harmony of the Grove buff with your CDs. It wouldn’t even necessarily line up with your Arcanic Pulsar windows. A better version of Early Spring could have CA/Incarn reset the CD of Force of Nature and have Arcanic Pulsar summon a free treant when it activates. The 3 second Grove Guardian CD reduction also seems pretty low value and doesn’t seem like it would change or improve gameplay very much. A better version could summon extra grove guardians when you use Tree of Life and Convoke and an extra Grove Guardian when Reforestation activates.

Middle Column:

Expansiveness seems very week and very lame. 5% max mana is incredibly low value for resto druids. It’s half of a leg enchant. 20 max Astral Power is also not very high value and I dislike the talent for the reason that it plays into the Cenarius’ Might talent which I really dislike. I think this talent should be scrapped and replaced.

Cenarius’ Might: I really dislike this talent on the basis that it promotes a bad and un-fun rotational playstyle for balance druids. The basic idea is that you will bank up to max astral power and then unload all of your spenders in a row until you run dry and have to build back up to max power. It seems like a pretty awful playstyle and has big anti-synergy with Starlord and would promote going back to using cancelaura macros for your Starlord buffs. The only possible upside is that it may enable some more gameplay with the Starweaver talent. It doesn’t seem as bad for resto druids since you can at least chain cast regrowth since it’s not a spender and then cast some buffed swiftmends and wild growths. However, my overall opinion on this talent is that it needs to be scrapped, at least in regards to the balance portion of the talent.

Power of the Dream: Power of the Dream is a fairly lackluster talent that just buffs Dream Surge a bit by adding an extra charge of Dream Burst and Dream Petal. Until we know how good Dream Surge is, we won’t really know how good or bad this talent is in terms of tuning. I dislike this talent for the reason that it buffs Cenarius’ Might by 5% since I really want that talent removed.

Control of the Dream: Control of the Dream sounds like an interesting concept but looks like it would be incredibly weak in terms of use. 5 seconds isn’t going to be very valuable for most of the CDs and even if it gave a more significant reduction, you would still likely hold a lot of those buttons to line up with other CDs. For example, you usually wouldn’t use your CA/Incarn early if it meant de-syncing it from your on-use trinket. I think it should be replaced with something else.

Right Side:

Protective Growth: I actually really like Protective Growth and it has pretty good synergy with Blooming Infusion farther down the tree. It looks like it could help out a lot with balance druid survival problems. The value could maybe be buffed to 10% since it’s being actively applied, but that’s a tuning issue, not a design issue.

Grove’s Inspiration: Grove’s Inspiration is just a very boring passive increase to the damage and healing of several spells. The only real problem with it, besides being a lackluster passive, is that it’s not buffing all of the more valuable spells. Wrath and Starfire are fillers and don’t account for anywhere close to the damage that spenders do and rejuvenation was left out for resto as well. I have to wonder about rejuvenation’s place in the next expansion since it doesn’t trigger any Symbiotic Blooms over on the Wildstalker tree either.

Persistent Enchantments: Persistent Enchantments looks kind of lackluster overall. The 2 second bonus to Arcanic Pulsar and Reforestation could be decent, but depending on haste levels it’s probably at most 2 more globals. I have to assume that the Stellar Flare duration has to be a mistype since Stellar Flare is 24 seconds baseline so 20 would be a nerf. Even assuming it’s supposed to be 30 seconds, 6 extra seconds of Stellar Flare doesn’t seem like it would be of any significant value.

Blooming Infusion: I really like the idea of Blooming Infusion and it plays well with Protective Growth. I just think a better version of this effect (such as a slightly changed Dream of Cenarius talent) should be moved into the base druid class tree. I only have 3 small nit-picks for this talent. For the first portion, it should be every 5 regrowths or swiftmends, not just regrowth. It would be cool if the Entangling Roots from this effect had a higher damage threshold since wrath and starfire are buffed from it. The final thing is that the instant regrowth doesn’t get any increased healing value which would be nice since regrowth is already so weak for balance druids. It only heals you for about 8% of your health instantly and another 3% from the HoT for a total of 11%. Baseline regrowth healing for balance druid really needs a buff.

Capstone:

Harmony of the Grove: This is a decent talent insofar in that it actually buffs your damage or healing for having your treants active. It does suffer from lack of hybrid value. You either get a damage buff or a healing buff depending on your spec, but not both. It would be better if it just read something to the effect of “Each active treant buffs your damage and healing by 3%.” It would be even better and probably easier to implement if you just made it so each treant buffed versatility by 3%. To make this talent more interesting you could add the chance to proc addition dream bursts while treants are active which would tie back into the keystone talent.

Overall, there are a lot of parts of this talent tree that probably need changed or reworked, especially the middle column. However, there are some decent ideas that could work out if decent changes are made. What it really needs is to replace some of the bad and generic talents with talents that have good synergy and tie more into the theme of nature magic and other keeper of the grove ideas. I got a decent number of ideas reviewing these talents and I may end up just posting what I think a better KotG tree would look like later.

[Snglfemtaurn-wild-growth]

Seems kind of boring, which is a recurring theme for druid hero talents. “do more damage. do more healing. cd is lower by a whole 3 seconds.” how do these things make you feel any different from another hero talent tree for druid? They really don’t. The idea of the tree is not breathed into the talent choices.

It’s also kind of silly to have talent options that are dependent on you selecting niche normal talents like ursox’s vortex for example. If you don’t take certain regular talents then some hero talents are useless to you.

Why is keeper of the grove not investing heavily into the powers of a cenarius or a remulos? Why is wildstalker not allowing us to perform unique healing moves in cat form? Why is the elune’s chosen not invoking your character with the night warrior-esque abilities or additional lunar moves? Wasted potential

I’d also like to add, that if treants are such a big deal for this tree then why is resto druid not being given the grove guardians in addition to nourish? Don’t limit people like that.

[Saithis-shandris (Saithis)]

i agree that these seem boring…blizz is playing it too safe - and therefore i just don’t see the devs adding any sort of epic fantasy they’re implying with the name “KotG”

I’d like to see them actually add some keeper spells…bring back Faerie Fire, Thorns aura, Symbiosis…maybe have Treants summoned from trees in the area…entangling roots is a signature ability, and it’s hardly ever used - maybe have a dmg over time component to it, similar to torghast.

I’m also still amazed they haven’t innovated Innervate at all…it would be nice to see it get an option for resource recovery/free casting for other classes instead of just mana using classes. It’ll forever be cast on myself in 99% of the scenarios, until they make it worth casting on others.

Anyway, that’s just my thoughts, I look forward to the +3% dmg/healing boring, safe, “balanced” stuff we’ll get in TwW!

Esports really do hold the retail team back imo

[Velyrco-tichondrius]

@Manwë-tichondrius

Treants of the Moon: It could be good depending on how much damage it does and if each treant has their own moonfire (meaning up to 3 or more moonfires on the same enemy) but my main problem with this talent is that it’s off theme. Keeper of the Grove should be heavily themed around nature damage instead of arcane damage. It would be much better thematically if the treants would cast Insect Swarm instead. You could even add some old-school value by making Insect Swarm reduce hit chance by 4% like it used to in the past. Even sunfire would be better than moonfire thematically.

OMG, Would LOVE this!

@Manwë-tichondrius

Power of Nature: It’s very lame for balance since it only buffs Force of Nature’s miniscule damage by 20%. It would be much better if it made the treants cast wrath dealing nature damage and thus gaining value from balance druid mastery.

Also love. this would be great for pvp too as the treants being melee means they are easily kited. I think seeing treants cast would be a great indicator as well that whoever is experince a Keeper as well.

@Manwë-tichondrius

Durability of Nature: A talent designed to benefit the tanking utility (and survivability) of Force of Nature treants is nice, but just giving them more health seems a little boring and doesn’t bring any damage to the table. It would be better if it also gave the Force of Nature treants a thorns effect so that they could deal some nature damage to enemies when they are attacked. The nature damage could also be affected by balance druid mastery.

Sounds good. Also I really like how you are tying in the mastery into these effects.

@Manwë-tichondrius

A better version of Early Spring could have CA/Incarn reset the CD of Force of Nature and have Arcanic Pulsar summon a free treant when it activates. The 3 second Grove Guardian CD reduction also seems pretty low value and doesn’t seem like it would change or improve gameplay very much. A better version could summon extra grove guardians when you use Tree of Life and Convoke and an extra Grove Guardian when Reforestation activates.

Unsure was CA stands for but ima all for resetting FoN! Preferably i wouldn’t want it tied to Incan though as i dont care for that skill. Summoning a horde of trees sounds amazing fun though. in both pve and pvp.

@Manwë-tichondrius

Expansiveness seems very week and very lame. 5% max mana is incredibly low value for resto druids. It’s half of a leg enchant. 20 max Astral Power is also not very high value and I dislike the talent for the reason that it plays into the Cenarius’ Might talent which I really dislike. I think this talent should be scrapped and replaced.

In place of this perhaps the new SoD rune? The one that allows us to Barkskin any ally. Il make mention of it again but that effect as well as something else could replace the current talent.

[Manwë-tichondrius]

@Velyrco-tichondrius

Unsure was CA stands for but ima all for resetting FoN! Preferably i wouldn’t want it tied to Incan though as i dont care for that skill. Summoning a horde of trees sounds amazing fun though. in both pve and pvp.

CA is Celestial Alignment, the base balance druid CD. Incarnation is the talent that overwrites it as a stronger version of the CD.

[Verdantsun-stormrage]

We need the balance druid mastery reworked so our aoe ramp up isnt massive.

The other problem is our aoe damage is fragmented over so many sources, that Starfall ends up being extremely weak.

Our aoe is comprised of sunfire, moonfire, starfire cleave, and starfall. That really dilutes the pie that Starfall would otherwise have.

An easy fix would be to make wild mushrooms our equivalent of Shadow’s Shadow Crash, making it apply both dots on top of its current damage. Othereise, make it our burst aoe cleave/aoe spell with much stronger burst damage.

My preference, however, would be for our AoE to only be balanced around sunfire and starfall, so starfall can do better damage. Moonfire can be used as a tuning knob for single target and cleave.

The problem with a diluted starfall is our 2-5 target cleave is abysmal. Starfall does no damage on low target counts, and neither do DoTs.

Balance as it currently is relies on massive target count pulls to become relevant, and that case is the outlier for most of the player population.

For the average +20 key in pugs, most pulls will consist of 5-8 mobs total. Balance needs to be able to compete there, and their 2-3 target cleave needs to be improved.

This is a caster vs. Melee problem in general, melee have both great cleave and mass aoe while most casters have horrendous cleave outside frost and fire mages with only good mass aoe.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Verdantsun-stormrage

that Starfall ends up being extremely weak.

Starfall ends up being 25-35% of your entire damage profile

@Verdantsun-stormrage

Our aoe is comprised of sunfire, moonfire, starfire cleave, and starfall. That really dilutes the pie that Starfall would otherwise have.

Even with all of that, Starfall is taking up 50% of that pie with the other 3 comprising the other half.

[Whelptress-sargeras]

Since the left half of the tree is very treant focused and the middle handles some of the bloom mechanics heres an idea to rework the right half of the tree to cover the rest of the keeper fantasy its missing and rework the capstone to be more meaningful.

Protective growth → thorns aura (absorb and reflect ~3% damage taken by party members as nature damage)

Grove inspiration → hive bearer; treants leave behind an adaptive swarm on despawn and/or death

persistent enchantments → nature’s cycle; your treants turn to mulch on death empowering your next efflorescene or wild mushroom)

Booming infusion - reworked so that balance gets 100% bonus healing to regrowth and the instant roots leaves a dot that damages and slows when its broken.

Harmony of the grove - reworked; treants increase your damage and healing by 3% per active. Every (x) dream petals/bursts your next force of nature/grove guardian summons an ancient of war with a starfall/tranquility around it for its duration. The ancient recieves all your treant enhancments.

The key point being thorns aura, a KotG spell entirely missing in the tree and adding damage back to entangling roots in a way that doesnt make it pull mobs (applying the dot only after other damage has broken it) so that its a viable option for the procs.
The rest is reworked to reinforce the nature magics: efflo mushroom swarm and an ancient, that keepers specialize in.

[Pepino-frostmourne (Pepino)]

@Pepino-frostmourne

My biggest concern as Resto is the dps side of things, while Wildstalker greatly encourages Kittyweaving and really doubles down on that certain playstyle, with several nodes that truly outshine anything remotely in Keepers of the Grove damage wise for Resto.

Wildstalker giving a flat out 5% buff in cat form, 10% damage Moonfire and Sunfire all in one node, and several nodes excelling Bloodvines aswell as Symbiotic Blooms helping both DPS and Healing.

Keeper of the Grove has barely anything to support the dps side as Resto, especially considering they specifically mention Force of Nature and Grove Guardians being separate abilities rather then “Treants summoned” to include Resto in the dps portion.

I’m just concerned if left as is, firstly Owlweaving is going to be a playstyle forgotten in the past and M+ is going to insanely favour Wildstalker due to its dps output being insanely higher, Kittyweaving is already a higher performing playstyle.

Using Grove Guardians doesn’t give us Dream Burst, as it seems only to be tied to Force of Nature from how it’s written, I may be wrong, but Bloodvines from how it’s written looks like it definitely will work with Kittyweaving.

Unless Treants of the Moon, the Moonfire from Treants, as mentioned “Treants” so not tied to specific Grove Guardians or Force of Nature, hits like a truck I can definitely see it struggling in M+ content where every little dps matters a lot more.

Edit: Maybe Grove Guardians gives only one charge of Dream Burst per Grove Guardians summoned stacking to 3, and Force of Nature gets Dream Petals when using Force of Nature?.

Maybe a node increasing Moonkin Damage to further encourage Owlweaving during healing Downtime?. This way as Resto each Hero Spec promotes both playstyles, Kittyweaving (Wildstalker) and Owlweaving (Keeper of the Grove).

I still worry deeply on the dps side of things as Resto for Keeper of the Grove, please consider allowing Dream Burst/Dream Petals to work with both Balance and Resto.

[Verdantsun-stormrage]

Yes, and my point is that fragmentation and amount of ramp up is what makes balance mostly a good spec for high 20s keys and bad/mediocre for everything else. You know, the content the vast majority of the playerbase is actually doing.

[Grizzle-eredar]

Thats not at all what you were saying…you were saying that theres too many pieces involved in ramp up time thats involved in AoE that it makes your AoE spender weak, which is objectively false, as i portrayed for you

[Verdantsun-stormrage]

It is weak, by virtue of how it works to put out that damage. Starfall ramps up to 50% of your damage after you’ve had to apply the dots and build up the AP for it, by which time it does miserly damage on most pulls below key level 23-24.

Compare its output to a destro lock’s ROF or Fire Mage’s damage profile, far more frontloaded in its aoe kit. Destro gets cataclysm and Shadow gets Shadow Crash. Their spenders and cleave can get to work right away. If our spender takes so long to come online it should be eclipsing in damage output by a wide margin relative to its counterparts in other classes.

[Grizzle-eredar]

@Verdantsun-stormrage

It is weak, by virtue of how it works to put out that damage

Still objectively wrong

@Verdantsun-stormrage

by which time it does miserly damage on most pulls below key level 23-24.

Nope, still largest chunk of damage by a large margin in 15 keys and 20 keys. Its fairly consistent regardless of which key range you look at. 30s and 20s sgaew similar breakdowns

@Verdantsun-stormrage

Compare its output to a destro lock’s ROF or Fire Mage’s damage profile, far more frontloaded in its aoe kit.

I dont know about Fire Mages, but Locks still have to build up to drop RoF. And RoF is relatively weaker than Starfall.

RoF makes up about 20% of Destro’s damage profile. And of all the AoEs that help Embers for RoF, RoF only makes up for aboit 30% of the overall AoE.

Both contributions are considerably smaller pieces of the pie compared to Balance and Starfall.

@Verdantsun-stormrage

Destro gets cataclysm and Shadow gets Shadow Crash. Their spenders and cleave can get to work right away.

Wrong again. Cataclysm doesnt do anything for you if youre low on embers. Still have to wait for all those Immolates to tick and possibly generate before being able to cast RoF. Then you also have to wait to stack another RoF.

Same with Shadow Crash. Congratulations. Youre set up to cleave! Does you no good when youre low on Insanity and SW:D is on cooldown.

Theyve all 3 got ramp up time.