https://classic.battle.net/war3/nightelf/units/keepergrove.shtml
Druid concept started with 4 spells: Treants, Root, Thorns aura, and Tranquility.
Current Treants being bad has nothing to do with Treants not fitting the druid kit.
Before being sky chickens, we were tree hippies. And, I think you can still be a sky chicken if you pick the other hero tree.
Your opinion is noted, but again, dismissal of feedback is not what this thread is for.
No⌠itâs to give my feedback too: treants fit.
Your opinion is that you donât like them, so, pick the other tree.
Do your applied-to-target hots spam heals on various targets over their lifespan based on who needs it the most in range, while moving into los when they need to or closing range to be able to heal/dps? Do your applied hots require offensive damage or a cc to stop them from ticking? Do your applied hots have the ability to eat CC from other players/mechanics? Do your applied hots apply off the GCD? Do your applied hots apply swiftmend immediately off the GCD?
Iâll give you the benefit of the doubt and guess youâre primarily a pve player as you are focused on class fantasy above balance, So most of these things do not matter that much on the pve side. But on the PVP side of things, they are near brainless to use, and always disproportionate in what they are capable of in both healing and utility compared to a typical healer ability. On top of that; they are part of Resto druid kit (and variants of them coming to balance) which has a history of problematic healer balance and general top tier kits within PVP due to the nature (no pun intended) of being hot-based while still having some of the strongest direct heals and amazing cc/utility in their kit.
Class fantasy means very little when it comes to balance, so claiming that it was based around four spells means nothing other than how skills and the class look, what the role of the class is, and what some skills do relative to their roles.
Druids having a skill that summons something to do something is not the issue here. The issue is that the treant gameplay design is rife with balance issues as they take far too much away from the agency of spells and abilities the druid itself is doing, they do too much without any interaction other than pressing the button the first time, from there they just do everything themselves. The focus on a ai controlled summon that is fire and forget but isnât just doing one thing (say, doing X damage to target, or doing X healing to a target or a debuff to target), but casting multiple abilities on different targets is not good for the game. Even a hunter needs to manage their pet that can do multiple things. These arenât Sfiends, or Shadow âsummonsâ. These are AI minions that do everything for you.
And on the other end of the spectrum for gameplay that is just AI pets that do things themselves: What happens when the AI is so bad, that they donât continue to do what they should through out their summon time like homunculi? Just aimlessly wandering and not attacking targets, with no control over them? Iâm sure that every druid player that has them will be quite upset, and it wouldnât be the first time in wowâs history, nor will it be the last.
Leaning into AI npc summons that have built in logic for multiple ability use is not good gameplay design for wow with the iteration of treants in game right now and with what theyâve shows so far further leans into that.
The article from Tettles on wowhead is short, and to the point, and 100% accurate, and a good warning about the dangers of continuing with this kind of gameplay design.
Oh, and your last statement is rather ironic:
Youâre stating that what your saying is not an opinion, itâs feedback, but then saying the person above is just an opinion and they should just play the other tree? While dismissing that playersâ feedback?
Thatâs some gaslighting there if Iâve ever seen it. Youâre also instantly dismissing my own feedback claiming I just donât like treants, which of course is one element of my FEEDBACK, and many others. Thereâs a reason a contingent of wow players do not like treants, and those issues with them is called FEEDBACK.
Everything anyone in this thread has said is feedback in one way or another. Feedback with an explanation that explains the issues that create that feedback is BETTER FEEDBACK as it provides perspective and valid notes on what makes some one think that way. Balance issues are some of the most important types of feedback because they directly influence how they impact both the game, and the players enjoyment of the game. Next up is having things that are fun to the player. If something is not fun, and is imbalanced on either end of the spectrum itâs not fun for anyone other than those who only want to do the best of everything regardless of what that takes.
You are focused on the minutia instead of the general sense of the spell. If you cast a heal now, and it heals OVER TIME, it is then, a HoT. Treants heal over their duration; that makes them HoTs.
Yes, some HoTs are front-loaded, others burst at the end, others jump around from target to target, and others need LoS; they all have unique quirks, but they also all have one thing in common: they heal over time.
Treants are HoTs that canât be stolen or dispelled, and instead can be CCâd.
Only when the balance is notoriously bad.
I must have missed the part where resto stopped being a healer.
Again, they are basically a strong Rejuvenation; you press it the first time and then it just heals over their duration. If Rejuv did the same healing as Treants, it would also need a CD.
Thatâs a lot of speculation for things that rarely happen.
Correction, it is not a design YOU like.
If you read the article comments, a lot of druids disagree with him, even though he claims to speak for all players.
No; thatâs not what I said at all. Anyone can share their opinion; I just donât have to agree with it. Disagreement doesnât mean Iâm silencing you. The post is still there. Blizz will see BOTH comments. Stop acting like a victim.
Exactly, and treants are fun for ME, and clearly, for other people too. If they are not fun for YOU, then you can pick something else. That way we BOTH get something fun. Itâs really that simple.
Alright,
I see you are the type thatâs going to pick and chose tiny snips of info from an entire conversation and try to âbreak it downâ.
Youâve addressed an extremely small amount of what I discussed, and you keep focusing on trying to derail conversation by claiming falsehoods and cherry picking a few sentences then replied to them with some strange non-sense because apparently all of this goes over your head. You continue to misconstrue game play design and balance with your head-cannon of design based around the flawed expectation that because druid was designed a certain way over 20 years ago, it should maintain that same âfantasyâ and to strong-arm it into the game as an awfully designed AI summon
Youâve already contradicted yourself by quoting several bits from my post, and youâre acting like⌠What exactly? High ground? The âRightâ Opinion?
Youâre perfectly allowed to disagree and have opinions of your own, just like people with Tettles or myself, or anyone for that matter. People have preferences, and tastes. Also normal.
The problem begins when some one tries to argue their opinion based on personal feelings about âclass fantasyâ as the basis in a game like this where Balance is the most important aspect of it because of how content works.
At the end of the day, treants function as an ai summon with the only interaction between them and the player being the key bind theyâre on. The game has become so rife with thoughtless buttons, and abilities having so much baked into them that they dumb the game down further (DH with everything they need to be self sufficient with only a half dozen buttons at most, Treants that go off and do whatever they need on their own, without any input from the player other than the initial summon).
I would say it was nice talking to you, but I feel like thatâs very disingenuous on my behalf. You have added nothing of value to this conversation other than your opinion on why the game should be built around class fantasy rather than a functioning MMO.
Cheers
For the balance spec, thereâs copious amounts of friction in this talent tree:
Cenariusâ might works against the principle of having a secondary resource bar like astral power. The whole point of those bars is to make sure they donât overflow so you donât waste the resource, talents like that create situations where you may want to bank and overflow a little for a burst window or even counter intuitively, spend and not receive the full benefit because the extra starsurge youâll be able to cast from not wasting will be worth more. Given thereâs way more spells for resto on it, it feels like this was made more for resto.
thereâs counter synergy in the new cooldown/cooldown reduction for treants: as theyâll be casting moonfire, youâll want them out during your celestial alignment burst windows. Unfortunately having the cooldown be less than a full minute screws that up, even with talents like control of the dream.
More of a flavor thing:
As the wow devs have decided that frost mage isnât a pet spec any more, itâs strange it has higher functional uptime on its pet than the keeper of the grove will have (if you factor in the talent that can extend icy veins). I think we need an uptime better than 20% for balance to truly keep the flavor of the spec. I propose something closer to 50% (i understand itâs supposed to be a temporary pet spec, but 20% feels too low). Maybe it can be a chance to proc a treant on cast or something instead of a direct talent to increase uptime.
Also i donât get the whining about it not being âactiveâ enough: sure the treants themselves arenât something you directly control, but i already feel like iâm managing plenty of cooldowns and buttons when iâm playing balance. Moreso than other rdps iâve experimented with. The design of the treants themselves as-is is fine. I actually think thereâs plenty of bloat across the board and many specs should not have additional complexity added via hero talents, but thatâs just me.
I have similar feelings about resto as well when it comes to how âactiveâ the gameplay feels.
yes, I donât owe you an essay only because you wrote a novel. I read your post, and most of it was repetitive and basically saying your opinion is more valid because it aligns with a pro. And then in this one you are saying my opinion is less valid because Iâm somehow contradicting myself.
I have not contradicted myself. I still have the same point from the very first post:
Instead of wasting so much time on whether we will have them or not, because the cat is out the bag and we WILL have them for sure, Iâd rather focus on how to improve them.
100% If people donât like the treant hero talents ,then take the cat ones. Also i wanna add, you cant SM drink while treants are up lol, they keep you in combat. People categorize the treants as pets but⌠its more like a healing totem doing HoTs. Cant imagine resto nature healing without treants, lore-wise
yeah, from a fantasy perspective, I love my little tree army and my incarnation tree commander, all spreading leaves everywhere. Treants alone got me back into healing.
I think the talents could improve gameplay wise, but it, thematically, I love it.
I think itâs because a lot of people associate pets with less skill, and some WoW players jump at any opportunity to call others âbadâ instead of actually thinking about the argument, or how the spell actually functions.
Current treants are literally the same as Healing Stream Totem, but no one has ever complained about that one. /smh
She doesnât even have to go cat: incarnation is clearly elune themed nuking as an alternate balance extension. But yes. We have an entirely different dps spec with 2 of its own hero talent sets that definitely wonât feature trees.
Problems more that its doing so much of our healing, iâve said it before if shamans had a tier that forced 40% of their healing into healing stream(not even cloud burst which can be interacted with just straight healing stream), or Worse Holy priests had to take lightwell for their tier theyâd be rioting as well.
Treants were great when they were first re-introduced as a counter to all the absurd burst damage in keys, being forced to run them in raids, along with a bunch of last second support talents they added the patch with tier is what people dislike.
Like most things theyre great when optional; Sucky when forced.
Back when i was doing mythic raiding I found my own setups to gives higher dps than what those âprosâ wrote in their guides. Hence I stopped reading anything by the âprosâ.
It seems like alot of the âprosâ dont actually take a pro/objective stance on this and instead are extremely subective. (emotionally invested into certain talents/flavors)
Personally I dont mind trees, Iâm just worried they will water out the value of our other abilities when they are going to be doing more dmg ^^
Last time Trees was a thing they started of good and didnt scale at all, so the talent for 20% more dmg will end up as nothing, since its 20% multiplied by nothing.
Maybe give Trees the hunter pet treatment and make them scale of weapon.
As Moonkin I really liked the idea of having nature spells back, since we became space chickens I miss the nature themed spells.
But the KotG hero talents felt shy, we could use more nature spells fantasy.
The nature side of druids makes me think of conservation, recycling, saving resources. Thats why I think KotG talents should involve saving astral power instead of generating more AsP, constant damage, instead of big spikes of damage and other nature spells instead of only force of nature.
Here some talents ideas (Moonkin only):
Dream surge - Now your force of nature treants cast wrath and every third wrath applies insect swarm to the target.
When a force of nature treant dies it casts wild mushrooms on yout target.
Devouring swarm - Insect swarm can stack, each stack increase itâs damage by 1%
Power of Nature - Your force of natureâs treants benefits from your haste, mastery, crit and versatility.
Durability of Nature - when your force of nature is active 15% of the damage you take is redirected to the treants.
Bounteous Bloom - when you have a treant alive your starsurge and starfall have a chance of refund 30% of it astral power.
Persistent Enchantments - Starfire critical strikes extends the duration of your wild mushrooms damage over time.
Power of the Dream - when your force of nature is on cooldown, your wrath has a chance of summoning a force of nature treant.
Control of the Dream - Your entangling roots and mass entanglement lasts 5 seconds but deals nature damage every second and donât break with damage anymore
Hopefully, theyâll scale with our own stats instead of being flat dmg.
On that note, and after seeing the Elune hero talents, I would really prefer if Treants casted Wrath and Sunfire instead of Moonfire. You know⌠sticking to the nature side.
Maybe treants could even cast Swarm and Mushroom, or the treant hero talents could buff those spells.
The base boomkin tree should also get a little restructuring so we can stick to the nature OR the moon side, and have the astral stuff down the middle.
For resto, it could also the base tree could also restructure so we could stick to Tree of Life (and itâs associated spells: Treants, Rejuv, Regrowth, Wild growth, Swiftmend) OR Convoke, Efflorescence, Life Bloom, Barkskin, and Ironbark, synergizing on the other side of the tree.
I like trying to open up a space for moonkin outside of moons and with the lunar tree being very focused on fury of the elune/moons/ lunar eclipse we know thatâs covered. I think dream surge should come from wild mushrooms. Think some interaction with mushrooms or the druid should also happen during using trees, I like making trees into a more useful cooldown. Whether thatâs like like make enemies they hit weaker to nature spells or they cast mushrooms or are made stronger off of the number of wrath/starsurge cast in their window, things like these that make them different.
Iâd also love to see convoke in both trees made more thematic by making a node that adds nature spells to the convoke like mushrooms and lunar spells for chosen like moon.
Idk I had this idea when the tree was announced as a concept that the old keeper of the grove form from WC3 like cenarius would be so cool to shift into, treants are cool and theres loads you could do with themâŚ
But Iâd really like this subspec to lean heavily into nature ideas, more mushrooms, vines as dps, swarms, etc, actual nature magic instead of x% increases to wrath and starfire but I guess that conflicts too much with the base Balance spec or something
My only feedback is expansiveness needs another look (5% mana isnât the right play(mana regen would be better)) and Persistent Enchantments needs to extend Reforestation by 5 or so seconds so you can fit 2 charges of Wild Growth into the ToL proc (Otherwise it stands no chance at being competitive in my mind with Groveâs Inspiration).
I raised this earlier in the thread, my issue is âcurrentlyâ, although subject to change, but I wish for Druids they got a unique barbershop options shapeshifts to further showcase the hero specialisation, you know the things Druids are known to do.
All purely cosmetic and an optional choice (itâs in the barbershop) but also be cool to see in the open world and in cities, like if you see a Saberon Druid youâll automatically think thatâs a Wildstalker Druid and so forth.
This would be such an easy W, I know they never read these things but⌠Lord I hope they see this lol