Feedback: Hunters

In Development Undermine(d) PTR Discussion
1541

Hello! Here’s some early feedback for BM Pack Leader rework.

  • The Pets being all RNG is not ideal and will lead to some massive variance. A set order would be more ideal. (Like Warlock Diabolist etc.)
  • Depending on how the recharge functions in M+/Raid Scenarios it can lead to some annoying opener setups for optimal play. The buff should ideally reset to the same pet buff on the start of boss combat.
  • Gaining a second “pet summon” buff via Lead from the Front does NOT take into account what buff you might already have. This can lead to you simply refreshing your existing proc and wasting the benefit. Not ideal although not too common in practice.
  • Shell Cover feels very undertuned and the design seems contradictory as it will only give you a damage reduction after the damage you would have needed it for.
  • No Mercy seems to just be a charge which seems pretty disappointing as a talent.
  • Beast Mastery cannot trigger Serpent Sting frequently enough for Envenomed Fang to gain much value at all (as we can only apply it via Explosive Venom at the moment, which takes at least ~15 seconds to stack up). The Bear will also not neatly line up with Serpent Sting having just been applied most of the time.
  • (BUG) Triggering two of the same pets back to back in short succession (such as via Lead From the Front) will munch the second proc. The second pet will despawn with the first one (includes the Wyvern buff)
  • (BUG) The Boar secondary target effect hits the main target.
  • (BUG) Snakeskin Quiver-procced Cobra Shots does not consume Hogstrider stacks atm but it does benefit from them.
  • (BUG) The Bear bleed cannot crit and does not benefit from Unnatural Causes.
  • (BUG) The Pig visual occasionally runs on the spot.
  • Visuals are cool
  • Horsehair Tether is cool
  • Overall the concept and idea is much better it just needs some better implementation.

Thanks for reading!

5 Likes
1542

It’s 10 seconds. Definitely going to fall off every time you get peeled.

1543

yea i completely disagree using my points above to support my point in my opinion.

Hunter is a pet class and MM hunter will still use some pet\beast abilities but it wont be micro managing a tamed pet end of story that is the change and its positive to most people with the exception of a few and lots of complainers who dont even play MM hunter as it is.

The age of turreting with a Taunt bot pet is over and hopefully we can get some more interesting spec kit with this change to MM.

2 Likes
1544

I’ve only seen it when using intimidation

1 Like
1545

Dire Frenzy is not extending Dire Cleaves beast cleave to 10 seconds, it’s remaining at 8.

1546

I highly doubt they’ll do anything even remotely close to replacing our pocket tank.

2 Likes
1547

Initial Pack Leader and Survival Hunter Feedback

Just wanted to share some initial thoughts on the new Pack Leader tree for Survival/BM hunters. So far, it’s definitely very thematic and it’s cool to summon pets and see them fighting with you! It really does fulfill the Rexxar fantasy. I think there are some elements to it, however, that could end up very frustrating in the long run.

Tip of the Spear Generation

It feels as if we are starting to be overwhelmed with Tip of the Spear stacks. The original design intention stated for Tip was to be a core rotational concept that creates satisfying gameplay. We are getting to a point where we are getting TOO many stacks of Tip of the Spear and there is nothing satisfying about generating or spending them.

Relentless Primal Ferocity is a powerful cooldown generating 3 stacks of Tip at a time. However, this is getting quickly out of hand as more additions are introduced. Pack Mentality in the new Pack Leader tree gives an extra Tip every time a beast is summoned. Additionally, the new tier set also gives 2 additional Tip whenever Winning Streak ends.

What is the point of having so many stacks of Tip if it just results in nearly every ability being tipped? It does not feel satisfying or rewarding. It’s not possible to generate enough focus to SPEND all of these stacks. It is very easy to just cap out on stacks on PTR and not have the focus to spend before needing to Kill Command to generate focus and again cap stacks.

Howl of the Pack Leader Randomness

Currently, Howl of the Pack Leader can summon a Bear, Wyvern, or Boar. These are completely random and can even pick the same pet multiple times in a row. This type of randomness can be very frustrating. For example, the bear spawn can do a LARGE amount of AoE damage, but whether we get the bear or not is entirely out of our control. This can be frustrating to plan around in raid, for example, when adds are typically spawning at a set interval/time and you are planning to optimize around that.

One example is Diabolist warlock. They rotate through pet summons in a set order and you know exactly what is going to proc and can play around it/plan for it. I think this would feel much less frustrating and more rewarding to be able to plan around this.

No Mercy

This talent just seems to do… nothing? This is a bit underwhelming, to say the least. The pets currently just charge to the target and do nothing special. If they’re already attacking the target, what is the point of this node?

What if we want to use Kill Shot without charging our pets to the target? We just have no option and this talent seems to do nothing and even be potentially harmful.

Shell Cover

This is just incredibly weak; 10% damage reduction for 6 seconds every 2 minutes is laughable.

Compare it to Dark Ranger, for example:

  • Permanently healing for 15% of all Shadow damage dealt OR
  • Smoke Screen, granting Survival of the Fittest (a 30% DR) whenever you exhil. This is roughly once a minute.

Or compare it to Sentinel:

  • A 1% absorb shield every time Sentinel ticks, up to 10%.

How do these even compare? Shell Cover needs to either be cranked up by a large amount or changed to a new functionality, like an actual cheat death effect instead of this current value.

Envenomed Fangs

Survival currently struggles to spread Serpent Sting in a meaningful way. Contagious Reagents is incredibly slow to spread Serpent Sting and we seldom have time to cast Raptor Strike to even utilize this talent. Additionally, the new Hogstrider talent also attempts to add some AoE Raptor Strikes which would help spread Serpent Sting. The issue here is that this is ALSO entirely random. Having a random Boar proc which needs to be followed up by a random Bear proc just to utilize Envenomed Fangs does not seem very appealing or fun to play around with how little control we have over these effects.

Tracking the Current Bugs

Pack Leader (understandably, since it’s new after all!) has some bugs right now that make it difficult to gauge how things actually perform. For example, the Bear’s bleed, Rend Flesh, cannot crit and does not get buffed by some talents that SHOULD increase it, such as Cull the Herd and Unnatural Causes.

A compilation of bugs for the three hunter specs, courtesy of the hunter discord:
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1SyyJ9FJ-kU5LMMTsaXIesOUE4dY8cDiTkAVc-s0qw9M/edit?gid=958747325#gid=958747325

Closing

Thank you for reading and the new rework is fun to play with! Despite having some concerns over bugs and performance, it really nails the Pack Leader theme.

3 Likes
1548

Aspect of the hydra is making everything hit one target twice when there is nothing to cleave.

1 Like
1549

delete this quick

1 Like
1550

Okay, so the PTR is out and I just spent 30 minutes playing there. First and foremost let me say that I am very unhappy. Very. It has been a long time since there have been changes added to the game that made me this upset. I don’t think words here can convey how upset I am. None the less I will try to be respectful with my feedback, but it is my experience that when you have something you have spent this much time developing, you will under no circumstances revert it, so I feel like what is the point. I guess I’m done with my hunter.

Here is my feedback.

Cons:
This is the big one. I could write several paragraphs on this…
You have removed my pet and ALL that entails, WHICH IS A LOT. A lot of functionality and game play options that I have CURRENTLY in 11.0.5 and that will be suddenly stripped away from me in 11.1.
As a gamer playing a game for enjoyment, this isn’t accomplishing that goal.

You have removed one of my favorite abilities from Marksman, Barrage. I simply loved this attack and have always used it since it was introduced. This sucks.

Where before I could summon different pets quickly to gain different buffs/abilities, I must now take a Talent choice that is between the Tenacity and Cunning options, meaning I have permanently lost leech from my pet, which was very nice to have.

Pros:
NONE THAT I SAW.
In fact I don’t understand this update at all.
For some spec fantasy that I as a MM shouldn’t use a pet, even though I am a HUNTER, and you are on record as saying specs should all feel like they are part of the same class, you have now made one of the specs unable to do the basic thing that hunters have done for 20 years… tame and use a pet.

I can right now on the live server, Dismiss my pet and run around without a pet all I want, when I want to feel like that ‘lone sniper/archer’ fantasy.

Bottom line and as simple a statement as I can make it - You are removing game play options that are enjoyable and replacing them with NOTHING.

EDIT: As I was sitting here staring at my screen I suddenly realized that the most fun I had on my MM hunter was at the very beginning of the expansion and that my enjoyment of the spec has went down with every update/patch. Just like a straight ramp down on a line chart.
First it was the Dark Ranger rework that removed the utility of being able to use Black Arrow whenever I wanted, which was a minor annoyance, and now this radical concept that I shouldn’t have a pet as a hunter.
Clearly someone (new?) at Bliz has some new vision for what THEY want MM to be suddenly and unfortunately for me, it’s not something that I like.

17 Likes
1551

I sympathize with you losing your pet however if you can’t see a single positive thing about how MM plays in 11.1 then I don’t think MM was ever for you other than using a pet. You even state that with your pet, MM has felt worse every patch for you since the start of this expansion.

Yeah someone new is in charge of making a change like this. I get you’re upset, but dude, take a break for a little while.

2 Likes
1552

I originally thought it was double tap that was bugged because I one shot a priest with it.

PvP multiplier also doesn’t seem to be applied to double tap.

You can also make all of your explosive shots benefit from the 4 set at the same time. I.e. have lnl banked. Cast explosive then salvo volley then use your lnl proc. They all end up getting both buffs.

1 Like
1553

Thought I was noticing something weird with Explosive Shot. That’s insane.

1 Like
1554

Based on limited playtime in the PTR and testing on rare’s, world elites (Bees), and target dummies, I can honestly say that it plays rather well. I didn’t track some of the talented abilities in great detail, but the new Streamline effect was easy to monitor and maintain at two stacks.

According to the Aimed Shot tooltip, the cast time was reduced passively to 2.4 seconds (possibly from talents selected or haste). the Streamline effect at two stacks drops it to 1.4 seconds. There was also an increase to Aimed Shot damage by about 60-70% (buffed by talents and their effects).

The larger area for Lunar Storm is a nice change as one can keep the mob within the circle with CC much easier.

One will hardly notice the spotting eagle effect, although the new Intimidation effect is comical, and brings to mind a small bird hazing someone away from its nest by swooping down and hitting them on the head.

4 Likes
1555

Trap damage threshold is way too high.

1556

I conceed that not having a pet to taunt/misdirect to/absorb damage that now you might take if you don’t kite well is 1 lost tool, just as not having a separate entity to hit enemy’s in BGs while the hunter is CCed isn’t possible in 11.1…but the rest of the kit looks improved in power and ease of use for MM. Fair trade if not actually better I feel. But I understand it wont be everybody’s preference. My testing was limited as I had like an hour on PTR before I had to go to work. Ill test more and likely enjoy it more, but if I like it less I’ll say so.

2 Likes
1557

The problem with kiting is that it requires a lot of open space while praying that the mob doesn’t decide to evade bug because it’s been moved too far away.

I’d simply much rather have my pet. I don’t understand why these changes have to be exclusionary to keeping my pet. There are ways to work around any double dipping, but it remains to be seen if Blizzard listens at all or if they’re dead set on this change and don’t care what we think.

7 Likes
1558

Seems like a oversight or maybe just intended but with BM you can only apply serpent sting with Explosive Venom. ( after casting multishot 3 times) You only use multi shot to put beast cleave on. You will only apply serpent sting every 18secs or so. This doesn’t pair well the new talent " Envenomed Fangs" on the pack leader tree. It seems you will be forced to go into the other choice as BM as you don’t have a good way to apply serpent sting. Is there a way to make serpent sting get applied by another method? or was it designed that surv go envenomed fangs and bm go ursine’s fury? Thanks

1559

I honestly don’t care how this plays better or worse or what changes you want I just want to keep my %&#*$^@ pet!!!

17 Likes
1560

Please don’t tell me a spec I’ve play for almost 20 years “was never for me”.
The audacity of that statement is utterly astonishing.

21 Likes