classes are tuned around their talents. that’s just how tuning works. balancing classes to do similar damage without talents wouldn’t make sense because the competitive parts of the game take place at max level. the goal is for the different classes and specs to do reasonably similar damage in actual play, and that means after they’ve picked up (currently) 80 levels’ worth of talents
it’s expected that most players will use lone wolf, and the spec is tuned around having it. thus, in a comparison of lone wolf versus no lone wolf, lone wolf is the 100%. the point of taking lone wolf is… because it’s better than other options (or because you don’t like pets but that’s not relevant to numbers)
You are assuming they would work the same, epecially when Warlock pets work like normal pets, they have to walk, they get stuck by pathfinder and so on.
Warlock pets are in the game space.
But M+ players were crying SO DAMN HARD, that it was, it was why they didnt want to summon, lust and then dismiss, so who is right?
And still is an option if you want to, its non-optional, for those who want RP/have fun, it would be dumb to remove.
Different classes and specs have a certain target dps gain from their talents. Talents have a power budget, based on how many points, where it is in the tree, whether it is active or passive, etc. Since you aren’t going to go in to a raid with no talents selected, Blizzard needs to figure out the “average” build for each spec, the expected DPS for that build, and then make balancing adjustments so the DPS specs are all more or less in the same ballpark.
For MM, Lone Wolf is considered as part of that “average” build. Just as TG is part of that “average” build for Fury, and Animal Companion is for BM.
Yup, 5% increased damage when not using a pet. Not, when a pet is active you deal 95% of your normal damage.
I understand how balancing works. Why are there aura buffs and nerfs then if the talents are where the power is? Why not just tune talents? It’s because the talents effect the baseline throughput to add flat damage, smoothness or flavor to the spec. If that throughput is too low or too high, then it’s adjusted accordingly. Talents are there as finer tuning knobs. Underused talents will get buffs/changes while highly used talents will usually stay that way for the season as to not disrupt things too much. The outliers, in terms of being too strong, will see nerfs (like Shamans earlier in season 1).
If talents have a power budget, why do you lose power with Single Minded Fury when compared to Titan’s Grip? And probably the same will be true with the new BM single pet talent, no one knows yet for sure though. Also, TG isn’t a talent it’s the baseline fantasy of what it is to be a Fury Warrior.
I really don’t like MM losing their pet. That basically means that there is just no longer a single pet, ranged hunter option anymore. That “class fantasy” of being the Dwarf with the bear pet from the Vanilla WoW cinematic? Yeah, that’s gone. Let players choose, even if it isn’t meta.
I also don’t like BM summoning pets that are not their own, though I do at least understand the desire to make less on-screen clutter. I would prefer it be done some other way.
No? hunter literally need dire beast and call of the wild to function as a spec, you are a zookeeper either way
Again, no, you cant
If you dont take dire beast and call of the wild you cant function as a spec, and if you are saying we should do it anyway, then all the crap said about MM with pet being worse falls flat
But at the same time, the moment you advocate that MM should lose their pet because min-max - besides you being able to function properly with or without pet - you should not try to tell people to play BM without the talents that make the spec function
You cant have both
there is no build that dont take call of the wild or dire beast and are viable, the spec just stop functioning how it its supposed to do, and its the same as a survival using a bow and “doing content”
I have done mythic queen without call of the wild just fine.
Dire beast is a bit harder to skip.
However again, you keep saying “stops functioning”, but can you explain to me, what exactly in the spec stops functioning without it ?
BM does not “function” without say beast cleave / multi-shot in AoE. It doesn’t “function” without barbed wrath.
However Dire beast and all of it’s interaction is a dmg amp that you are not keeping track of / playing around / realistically affecting your actual gameplay in any way (well besides in current builds pressing it every 20 sec) to the point that in multiple points in the past we’d play with dire command and no dire beast itself.
That entire branch of the talent tree can be nuked right now, replaced with static % dmg amps similar in design to training expert, and it wouldn’t really affect us.
Call of the wild is a cooldown, and is nicer now that it actually does things for unlike early in DF after the rework where it was just bait, but it again far from required and could easily be replaced by bloodshed.
So again, please explain to me how those two talents are needed for the spec to function.
Unless mythic queen is in “doing content” level of difficulty.
Thats what im saying, you cant skip both, you are a zookeper either way.
The entire BM toolkit revolves around you using pets for procs and buffs, if you dont take then you might as well play blindfolded because you are going to be so bad you are not going to function as a spec properly anymore.
This is MUCH of a bigger of a difference than MM choosing or not to use a pet, so its bullocks to say to people who play MM with a pet - who could function just fine with both options - to just go BM hunter and put a brick on their mouth and not pick both talents that make the spec perform normal
And again, 'yall only think M+ and some raids are the only form of content that exist, its not, people already said countless of times there is questing, delves and PVP where pet is extremely valuable for MM, and you cant replicate this by GoInG bM hUntEr because BM without dire best and call of the wild is crap in those modes especially pvp
Blatantly false, but i guess i shouldn’t have expected any insight on how a hunter spec functions in pve from some pvp warrior player.
I’m not discussing anything about MM right now, but any idea that you need those mechanics for BM in be “questing / delves” is absolutely delusional, so again, please go back to trolling the pvp forums.
Yeah mate, try to not take those talents right now and do some content and see how good it feels.
Same way i cant expect a pve player to understand anything that isnt m+ and raid, too high on your own log farts i guess
Even if they weren’t - and they are otherwise you might as well pretend they can play y survival with a bow in those things and function properly a a spec - PVP still is a thing and you trying to dismiss it just because you don’t do it just show how much of a clown you are
That isn’t M+ / Raids / Delves / Soloing / Quests / Open World
I’d call you a pvper, but considering you never even hit 1500s in arena or done a single rated bg it would be an insult to actual pvpers.
So far when trying to describe why BM can’t work w/o dire beast the best you can explain is some mom spaghetti of “well actually random procs that don’t impact gameplay/rotation are important”
And again, i can play just fine in all those without those talents.
I can do “questing” i can do “+11s delves” just fine.
You have not been able to show anything that shows how valuable those talents are and instead just yapping, so again, for everything that doesn’t involve PvP feel free to not comment, and for what involves PvP feel free to leave it to actual PvPers with relevant experience to comment.
You cant understand anything that isnt M+ and raid it seems.
I actually got 1800 in shuffle in this toon - which is an arena solo mode btw - and same rank on several other specs/classes(hunter included both MM and BM), even got 1950 on my warlock in blitzz, so your lame tentative to shame me only made you more of a clown.
I also, never stated im amazing at PVP, but you can use your “detective skills” to search for the high rankers and see which build they play and most of then use pet and dont pick lone wolf.
And again, if we use this dumb argument that “we can” MM can do literally anything with or without the PET therefore the reasoning to remove becomes invallid.
Yeah cause obnoxious more damage more consistently is not valuable in doing content
They do both. How have you not paid any attention to what Blizzard has done with any of their balancing adjustments?
Because Blizz isn’t all that great at balancing things. They also have biases around how they want the class to be played the “right” way. So SMF gets left in the dust.
Well I’ll bow out of this conversation until some actual testing can be done. People are arguing over things that have not been applied, and also do not even understand the mechanics of how the spec will work. So arguing for the sake of arguing.
When the PTR comes up and testing begins, THEN a educated discussion can begin. As of now, well its not so educated, so basically its a waste of time.
look at it this way: classes are primarily balanced around high-end play. the highest potential damage that’s feasible for players to do is considered 100%. anything less is considered lower. thus, when it comes to talents, the best talent build is 100% and every other build is lower. the more you stick to that best build, the closer you are to doing 100% of your potential damage
of course the devs don’t generally set out to make a best build. that’s just how it shakes out and it’s how balancing happens once players get their hands on the talents & start min-maxing. if a spec is overperforming, either their top talents or their baseline numbers are reduced; if a spec is unable to reach the same heights as others, talents and/or the baseline numbers are buffed, and whatever build comes out on top is the new 100%
it’s like hit rating. hit increased your chance to, well, hit with your attacks. while this was conceptually meant as a bonus you could choose to stack, in reality it felt more like a penalty to overcome. characters of course started with that chance to miss as a baseline thing, but because there was an option to remove the chance to miss, never missing was seen as mandatory. it was the 100% to aim for.
and before you go “but the default hit chance was below 100% so it’s not comparable”–that “it wasn’t 100%” is exactly why i’m using this particular example. default damage without talents is not 100% of what you can do. it’s not the ideal that the spec is balanced around. when we say 100% we’re talking about the damage that a spec is able to do
thus, in current MM, with lone wolf is considered 100% and without lone wolf is considered less. just as it would be if it was a baseline effect with reversed wording. “having a pet out gives -5%” could very easily be tuned to achieve virtually the same result as the current “having no pet out gives +5%”
