Agree, would love to see some iteration on this skill. Would also love to see it replace hunter’s mark which is basically useless outside of keeping it on a rogue in pvp.
Well, one of the things they’ve walked back on before was trying to take away pets from MM back during BfA. So this is something they’ve already backed off on once before.
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Except it is not and never has been “historically no pet.” The OPTION of not having a pet only came into existence in Legion with lone wolf. Pushing this false narrative is insulting to those of us who have been around longer.
Also, of the two sides to this argument, whether or not marksman should have a pet, there is a stark difference in players voicing their opinion on the matter. Those of us who would like to keep our pets have offered tangible solutions that would make everyone happy, including the non-pet marksmen, by suggesting things like bake lust into lone wolf and untie the pet from the damage mechanics. The pet folk are happy to compromise. On the other side of the argument, I’m mostly seeing toxic and unhelpful remarks such as “go play something else,” or “well this is what I like so screw you.” No option for compromise, it sounds a lot like the people who don’t want to play with a pet don’t want ANYONE to play with a pet and that is really gross. If the only way that you can be happy is to make other people miserable, that is absolutely callous. The fact that so many of the non-pet folk are rejoicing at the fact that many of us long time pet marksman are having our pets taken away is not only a bad change, but it is fueling a culture that is exclusionary and virulent.
Blizz, please do not take away the option for marksman hunters to utilize our pets. There are a lot of reasons we want to keep them, from utility to class fantasy to individual expression in an mmo rpg. Taking that away and forcing this idea onto everyone is the wrong move and limits who we are allowed to be and how we are allowed to play. If you want to try implementing this design into lone wolf or by creating a 4th spec, go for it, but please DO NOT euthanize the pets of every marksman who have kept our pets by our side for 15-20 years for various reasons. Doing so would be uncouth and absolutely alienate many players. Do not take our pets. Make it optional, but not required.
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If the casual player is such a massive part of the MM hunter population, why would they consider this change at all? Could it be that the core mechanics of the spec need a refresh and a more focused identity as well? IMO to appease the casual crowd who wants their pet, allow pets only in the open world and delves and maybe tie it to a talent or toggle of some kind. Also, I’ve seen the idea that if pets stay along with the new changes that the player would take a 5% damage nerf with the pet out. Just make the pet deal substantially less dmg, but keep the functionality of growl. Lastly, if everyone outside the casual player base is an elitist jerk you may want to reflect on that because it seems like the contrary from what you wrote.
Your analogy is off. MM plays just fine without a pet, but currently needs a pet for added utility in which the tradeoff is damage. Right now it’s like buying a fully equipped truck but you have to stop, get out and press a button in the bed for functions that are available in the cab, but when you press that button, 5% of your gas spills onto the ground.
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Except there’s one example off the top of my head. From a historical POV, in vanilla, for the Ancient Leaf quest chain to get Rhok’delar, if your pet helped in any way, you would fail whatever part of the quest chain you were on. Players would often dismiss their pets for this. A minor example, but one nonetheless.
What damage mechanics are the pet tied to for MM? The spec functions exactly the same with or without a pet.
Why would people who like the changes offer compromise when these players have been inconvenienced with how things function currently? A pet offers zero functionality except for growl and the annoyance of calling it out to use it’s utility. Sure there is space for Blizzard to be iterative before the changes go live, but don’t sit their and complain for the people who like the changes to help you out. You need to continue being iterative yourself so Blizzard hears a wider variety of ideas, not the same ones regurgitated over and over.
These are all reasons for making the changes too you know…
They will still be alive and in the stable.
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Rhetorically, any class that isn’t meta could be argued to consist primarily of casual players, since hardcore players would prefer to play the classes that parse higher or offer required utility. But, nobody here has those numbers one way or the other, so we can say is that there are a combination of self-identified casual and hardcore players that have provided their opinions here, which leads to the conclusion that both audiences exist that have an interest in this change.
One could argue that Casual players outnumber ‘hardcore’ players in general, but that would have to rely on sophistry, and is honestly immaterial to the underlying issue. We have two identifiable stakeholders.
If you rely on what the folks against the spotter eagle are saying it comes down to three major groups: Folks against 1) The Eagle, 2) No Pets BUT the Eagle, and 3) The RNG nature of the mechanic.
In general, in the nearly 800 posts at hand, there has not been more than a handful of arguments against changing MM at all that rely on a pure mechanical analysis (Because we don’t really have anything to test and iterate on yet), and I’ve seen a lot of conflation between these issues in the counter-responses and doubling back to already covered topics as folks try to poke holes into those three concerns.
As to the “why make any changes at all”, the least circular part of Kaivax’s argument is as you suggested, that the mechanics could use a refresh and a refocus on where our tool kit could be expanded - but that is not mutually exclusive to hardcore or casual players. While you may not have intended it to come out this way, what you said could be interpreted to mean that somehow casual players don’t deserve to have new toys, or that we are somehow happy being thrown whatever mechanics get dripped down from the hardcore players. As a Casual player I like new toys as well, and development time that is casual friendly is not wasted time.
Fluffy hits for its own auto-attack and ability damage. This is accounted for in damage calculations for balancing purposes, regardless of how nominal it might be. As for the spec “functioning the same with or without a pet”? No, a dead dips does no dps, and a moving Marksman cannot get off an Aimed Shot. Trapping, slowing, etc. only works so far in keeping mobs off of us, and not everything melts before reaching us.
I would be happy to dust off the ol’ CC skills to return to the days of trapping, taking out one mob at a time and kiting my foes, but I don’t think that is everyone’s cup of tea. Also, this is antithetical to how endgame content is designed - why would they reinforce a playstyle they have sought to stamp out in every other form of content?
As for Rhok’delar, that was tied behind Raiding and was considered the epitome of solo content at the time and a true test of kiting (Or cheesing in a couple of cases). That is fine as a one off, but every mob requiring that level of kiting gets old. If I decide to kill an elite on Siren Isle, I don’t want to have to (hyperbolically) pull them around the entire Island three times just to get a single kill.
Further iteration requires input from Blizzard on the ideas put forth already, either via dismissal or implementation. Iteration is a step by step process that requires communication, something which we will not get until after the holidays or Kaivax decides to put us out of our misery. Unless you have some kind of beta-build information to share, churning more ideas just for your rhetorical pleasure isn’t helpful either.
If the player base is independently providing the same input and potential fixes (I doubt the majority of players who are coming into the thread, new, are going through the trouble of reading these almost 800 posts to see if the same suggestion has already been provided) then that is evidence of that being an obvious solution that would resolve the concerns of more than one person.
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So, every hunter that’s responded negatively to this idea hasn’t considered it? Are you saying that every player that’s responded plays the M+/M.Raid/PVP? If so, maybe a more focused identity is not the only thing that’s needed, but this isn’t a complaint about damage, dungeons or whatever. It’s about fundamentally taking away something that has always been a choice for hunters playing MM.
Yes, that’s an option, it’s also an option to not change it at all, which is what a lot of the people asking for this not to be done are requesting. If there is a need for a ranged spec to not have a pet, they have mages that they’ve already done that too and that wasn’t well received. There’s warlocks that they haven’t done that too… yet and hopefully never will. There’s evokers that have never had a pet and from personal experience don’t do well with multiple threats or elites at the casual level. There’s priests that have the backup of running as disc to offset this. The tank spec for pets is the hunters aspect for that. If people don’t like pets crowding their screens in content, they can ask the hunter to put them away or leave and they can hold the aggro. BUT that is still a CHOICE. Blizzard is saying that MM don’t need to have that choice.
I make that comparison because that’s been my overwhelming experience trying to get into some of that content and it’s a generalization that I do know that there are exceptions to that. It’s more a reference that they complain about how THEY want the game to be, and the majority others pay for that ego.
It’s not off, you just about have it but not really. The analogy is that Blizzard is saying that they players don’t have a choice about if we get the pet when we want or need it (the wheels) because they are stating that they feel that we can drive the car without wheels. Does it have an anti-grav engine? VTOL rotors? Magic? Nope, you have to figure out how to move it on your own.
What functions? Your analogy is basically saying that the pet is still going to be available, but that you have to press a button to get it to attack and growl, but Blizzard isn’t even giving you or anyone else that option.
I’m sorry, but it seems like you are focusing on parts that were used to support the theme of the complaint that’s being made. As I’ve stated, most of the casual player probably doesn’t min/max the way an M+ runner would, some obviously will, most won’t consider that based on SIM’s and add-ons to read damage output, there’s a perception (correct or not, I actually don’t care) that running a pet with MM will result in a DPS loss. If it does, well, I’m okay with that because it’s my choice to run MM that way, I have interrupts, the pet stun, the distracting shot, concussive shot whatever for pack pulls to be able to interrupt casts that need it so a run can go faster ultimately because the healer isn’t as mana starved recovering group health, the group doesn’t get stunned, even down to not having to be res’d or having others res’d because the cast went off. And yes, that is stemming from my mentality I play mainly as a tank spec on multiple toons. For me, it’s a basic part of playing with others and I will still work to ensure that others in the group, dps/tank/healer, are still alive at the end of a pull so we can continue on with a run. Wait for a healer to run back or take an extra 5 to 10 seconds to kill a pack? I’d rather keep moving than standing around twiddling my thumbs.
Again, it’s my LORE, MY PLAY STYLE. MY CHOICE. The complaint is that Blizzard dev’s don’t seem to think that’s a good one. They don’t seem to think people don’t want to be pigeon holed into one play style. They’ve listened before. At Vanilla, we had huge talent tree’s, they trimmed them way down, I would say they dumbed them down. But, that cost them and we’re back to having a large selection again, granted, some builds are a few core skills with a ton of passives, but… IT’S STILL OUR CHOICE. Let me be unequivocally clear, you can pick and choice parts of what I comment on and put in your agreement or disagreement on it. But ultimately, the argument, the disagreement and request is that Blizzards change to MM is taking away players CHOICE.
It’s not about lore, it’s not about damage, it’s how we view the character we’ve built and how we want to play that character.
You want a spec that doesn’t get a pet, add it to rogue or hunter and play that. Heck, add a hero tree to hunter that starts off stating you can’t have a pet with this tree. Don’t change MM to something that’s being viewed as something less than what we enjoy playing.
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Wasn’t arguing that a pet is or isn’t factored in for tuning, but that the buttons you press to deal damage as an MM hunter are the same with or without a pet, whereas if you’re a Surv hunter, your pet being dead or not called, means buttons won’t work.
Same. But I would argue that, in end game content, CC abilities are used way more often than any pet would be useful.
I’ve not been in this thread for long either, but I see the same ideas being repeated over and over, often times by the same people. And of course it’s helpful for people to continue being iterative passed what has already been stated. The typical person isn’t reading this entire thread, true, but the Devs are.
Sounds like you (Vortan) feel inconvenienced by the fact that the game presently doesn’t work the way that you want it to and now feel that you have the right to say that change is good and everyone should accept change because you want change.
I’m not saying that change is bad, but bad change is still bad, and as much as you can feel that keeping things at the current status a knock against you and those that want change. We can feel that this change is bad and so are those that are pushing for it.
In reading this, people have commented that compromise and constructive alternatives haven’t been put forth. They have, make a new talent spec somewhere else, make a new hero tree, put out more information about a fundamental change to how a spec will work without an aspect of the class that has been a core part of it for a long time. You say that traditionally, MM has never enjoyed having a pet out for M+ etc, well, I’ve seen enough comments here and know many hunters that have openly stated otherwise, continue to play otherwise and would like to continue to do so.
I’m sorry, but honestly, I think your position and that of Blizzards on this issue needs more compromise and more discussion before the change is rolled out. This is strictly my opinion and not an arguement or attack against this, but it just seems that the flexibility that you seem to be asking the hunter base to accept isn’t been given in return.
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Oh, and to be clear, yes, this proposed change to the hunter has me feeling hurt and I believe that many other people that have commented on it against feel hurt. Thus, those arguing and commenting against rolling this back are pretty much saying “suck it up, we want the change and we don’t care about your feelings”.
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I’m saying that if the overwhelming majority of players are not in favor of the change, it would have never been suggested in the first place. I know change it scary and the announced changes will certainly be iterated on. Also, if the voices are heard loudly enough that MM wants to keep their pets, it may just happen. Look to Single Minded Fury for warriors. SMF is worse than Titan’s Grip by a decent margin, but it exists to appease the players who wanted it. May happen for pets and MM too.
A lot of what you’re saying here doesn’t really hold water. Are you suggesting I go play another class/spec if I don’t want to use a pet? Isn’t that the exact thing people who want pets have said about losing them? Ouch.
No specs outside of tanks deal with elites or the tougher rares like those in Ringing Deeps. I often have to turn growl off while playing survival so my pet doesn’t die. Just because a thing is a thing doesn’t mean it should always be a thing.
I wouldn’t call them elitist though. From the most casual to the most hardcore, players want a particular experience whether it’s how their class plays or who the player chooses to play with. Often times people are complaining about not being accepted to M+ keys. There are so many reasons for that (score isn’t high enough, a different utility is needed, a different spec is desired), but people think the game is busted because they can’t do the thing they want when they want. We’ll see what Blizzard says once they respond to feedback.
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Once again, you’ve missed the point. MM hunters can already choose not to play with a pet. Blizzards to make it so MM hunters never get to make that choice. That’s the OUCH. The compromise that you seem to be missing is perhaps change or leave MM alone and for those that want the core of this change get a CHOICE all of their own with a lot of the same functionality and feel of MM but in another spec. How is that saying that we’re taking away a choice? We’re asking for us and the other side to not only have the cake they want, but eat it too.
I won’t argue this portion with you, it’s based on my personal experience and how the requirements have been presented to join them, you meet them and and sometimes exceed them and they still proverbially speaking “close ranks” and exclude the chance. If you don’t like the characterization, then accept the change that sometimes, people just don’t think like you.
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Why do you have logs of you playing without your pet?
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Yup. I stopped playing MM because utility being locked behind the pet is annoying. And if the spec stays the same and ends up not being changed you will feel justified in that decision as it being something that should always be.
The create a new spec or talent tree crowd are incredibly short sighted in what those suggestions mean. Never said Marksman traditionally has never enjoyed a pet out of M+. The exact opposite is probably true. It’s only useful for some outdoor content and you’ll probably have to use a specific pet, one with a tank ability like a bear or scalehide, for it to not die in delves.
I’ve stated a few times a solution that has been given and iterated upon it. Have pets accessible through a talent or toggle in the stable, make pets only usable in the open world and delves and reduce pet damage while maintaining the current functionality of growl. It wouldn’t impede on the proposed new spotting eagle in the end game activities (M+, raiding, PVP) and let the casual crowd continue using pets the way that seems most important to them.
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oh I am super aware of that but if they implied they are better than me then by all means share the knowledge it gets a llittle sus when they havent timed a +6 and most of their raid experience is from Wrath or Cata though. I would even argue that gemeplay wise an avarage joe like me might have a better understanding of current MM than they have. I am not great I am so far from it but even I an avarage joe in this game understand MM NEEDS these changes to be a better spec. If blizzard manages to keep the changes while letting ppl who like to solo play MM with a pet keep it then great! If not then I am sorry but I won’t feel bad or be scolded for liking the direction the spec is going
Tar trap, freezing trap, binding shot, disengage, aspect of the cheetah. Trust me the mobs will be dead before they get to you
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No I understand perfectly. You feel losing pets is the ouch. I feel utility being locked behind the pet in exchange for damage is the ouch. The changes fix my ouch and give you an ouch. I understand there’s a middle ground and I’ve iterated on the original suggestion, see my previous response for that.
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Kiting is a lost art and a skill that use to be desired.
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I would argue that a “frankly that’s a skill issue” or “get good” is applicable but I am being called an elitist jerk already for saying pets have cost us damage and utility as MM and the spec doesnt function well with them but all good
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Most rare elites leash way too quickly for that to work as well nowadays.
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