All Elves. Yet the very first Hunter we see in World of Warcraft is a Dwarf with his bear by his side.
And I’m not against there being a petless spec, but ripping pets out of MM isn’t the way to do it.
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A dwarf that is a rifleman from the RTS games that never had a pet until wow… And who the NPCs in game for still largely don’t have pets for.
The cinematic was representative of the hunter class at that time.
I don’t know why we’re arguing over pet or not, when they should let us do both… There should even be a petless Survival…
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Bold choice of words given the state of the thread atm.
The real question would be how would this even be implemented given how integral pets are for Survival’s playstyle even moreso since the recent rework regarding tip of the spear and Kill Command being the main driver for it especially with it being somewhat of a long range attack as well based on where your pet can reach.
Anything implemented to replace it would look off in the current gameplay or come at a range tradeoff in being a melee strike.
TL:DR version at the bottom
At 1am when I couldn’t sleep, this is what I realized I will no longer be able to do if my pet is taken away. I’m sure there are more, but I fell asleep thinking about this:
- Pull mobs with Eyes of the Beast - which I’ve done in dungeons both for fun and to help the tank round stuff up quickly
- Misdirect to my pet in solo content, helping me round up enough mobs so that my AOE will work efficiently (we don’t have a 2 tag AOE, so I always pull in a third so I can use AOE spells)
- Have my pet fetch loot (not super important, but still very fun and a function that will no longer be available. Most useful when mobs die on a cliff and you can’t reach them)
- Have my pet run to tag mobs to bring them into range when they are just out of range of my bow and I can’t/don’t want to move for some reason (I used this a lot while rounding up pirates to get my Insane title so I could utilize the 15% xp and rep guild banner where you can’t leave it’s range. More recently for just the banner’s XP gain while leveling alts)
- Have the pet that I spent months finding to tame
I think a lot of people who started in Legion or after may not even realize the utility of having your pet. Maybe you heard it’s too much maintenance to have your pet out all the time. That was taken out of the game, and you no longer have to worry about that. Back in the day, you had to first tame your pet, then train your pet up to current level (it was tamed at whatever level it was at the time), then you had to feed your pet constantly because it didn’t like you at first. After feeding it a lot over a few days, then it started to become your buddy and you only had to feed it once a day or so to keep it happy. If you didn’t, it would be become unhappy and not do as much DPS for you. I heard rumors that if it became unhappy for long enough, it would leave you, but there were no internet forums at the time to verify that. I just never let it happen, so I don’t know. But yeah, it was a lot of work, but that’s what we did and we had a true bond with our pets after all of that. I agree that taking that type of maintenance out of the game was a step in the right direction, and it’s much easier now. To maintain your pet now, all you have to do is summon it. So I don’t understand what people mean about “having to maintain a pet” unless they are just talking about using it for heroism. Intimidation was taken off the pet and moved to the main bar so you don’t need a pet out to use that one anymore. Only hero is left since every other special pet ability was removed.
Pulling out a pet as MM with LW does give you a 30% haste buff for 40 seconds, but I don’t know if it was ever supposed to be a viable raid mechanic. It’s great for soloing, but not in raids/M+. I don’t remember if it was Wowhead, Icy Veins or Method (those are the only three sites I go to now because Elitist Jerks doesn’t exist anymore), but according to my research a few months ago, you took a significant DPS loss by dismissing your pet after you summoned it for heroism during a raid, so anyone who has been pulling it out, hitting the spell, and then taking the time to dismiss it again before DPSing, you were losing a lot of DPS during hero. If you waited and didn’t dismiss it during hero, you were taking a DPS hit for the rest of the fight for having a pet out (which could negate the increase all together), or later during the fight where you took the time to stop and cast the dismiss spell. So there is really no great option. The only time it made sense (max DPS wise) was if you pulled it out in the last 40 seconds of any fight, or dismissed it during a phase change where people really aren’t DPSing anyway (like when the bugs come out during Ulgrax and the tank is rounding them up) which is pretty limiting and makes you really need to understand the fights. It’s probably still a bit better for everyone else in the group, but it probably wasn’t doing as much good for you as you have been thinking it did. Drums, which can be used by anyone, does 15% damage for 40 seconds but there’s no down side. That extra 15% only matters in high end content, not the majority of players. So use drums, and you don’t have to pull the pet out at all if that’s all you’re using it for. They are getting cheaper every day, and if you have the mats, you can place an order at the artisan’s crafting table for them for just a tip.
But I understand that some people just don’t like pets. Or just like being able to hit hero and feel useful. I also understand that Blizzard is trying to reduce the clutter in melee (maybe not add survival to that problem? Just saying…).
It seems that to make everyone happy, the most logical thing would be to keep Lone Wolf as a choice, and just pull Primal Rage out of the pet’s abilities and add it to the main spellbook like what was done to Intimidate. Then when Lone Wolf is active, you can’t access your traditional pets. You wouldn’t need a pet (or eagle) at all. If you want to use a spell effect of a pet coming in doing its thing and leaving, instead of an eagle, I suggest using the extra stable slot that is for BM hunter since it’s already in the game, and use the appearance of whatever pet is placed there for your special Lone Wolf ability. No one wants a generic eagle as far as I’ve been seeing. If your pet is only there for a few seconds, then I don’t see the difference. If you’re trying to reduce melee clutter, you could make the pet only visible to the hunter, not the whole group. Then there would be NOTHING in melee, not a bird, not ground animals. Birds blocked LOS so much that our guild asked all the hunters to never use them. If it’s not visible to anyone else, then it seems like a good solution.
Or, with or without Lone Wolf, you could keep traditional pets an option WHEN NOT IN A RAID/MYTHIC+. If you’re not in a raid or mythic+, keep the ability to summon our pets and let us choose to play with or without one. No one needs melee decluttering if you’re playing solo. Make the change only applicable to raids and mythic+ and then at least I know I’d be happy with the change. Just don’t take away the ability to summon my pet at all other times, or if I chose not to take the LW talent.
TL:DR
Make losing the ability to summon traditional pets only apply to people taking the Lone Wolf talent and make Primal Rage a main spell ability like Intimidation so pets never needs to be used
or
with or without LW, lose the ability to summon pets only during Raids and Mythic+ and keep the option available at all other times.
13 Likes
After thinking about this change for a bit, I have to say I think it’s probably going to be considered a bad change for the majority of players to make them use an eagle they haven’t specifically chosen to tame…
I can certainly see the benefit to those of us are running M+, or raiders; it will solve the issue of MM hunters needing to summon out a ‘lust’ pet & then having to dismiss them before we start doing damage. But what is the actual percentage of active, current players who engage in M+ compared to other content? I prefer the playstyle of MM over BM in nearly every situation, & I’d hate to be forced into playing a spec I don’t really want to just to run solo stuff.
Would it not be better to allow MM hunter’s the ability to at least choose from their own stable of pets while still having THAT pet fulfill the new functionalities? I think that would probably ‘feel’ better to most players, but I suppose we’ll have to wait & see how this shakes out in testing.
5 Likes
you’re looking at it from a “keeping the same baseline number and multiplying it by 0.95 instead of 1.05” perspective but that’s not how tuning works. in reversing the mechanic so it’s -5% for having a pet rather than +5% for not having one, the numbers would be adjusted so that it’s not an overall nerf
e.g. in the current +5% system, if no-pet deals 100 damage and with-pet deals 95 damage, 95 would be the baseline number that’s being modified. when switching to a “pets give -5%” system you would then make 100 the baseline, not 95, so that it doesn’t result in an overall nerf
whether not having a pet is +5% or having a pet is -5%, the effect is simply that the two have a 5% difference in damage. the number value you start with is malleable
(this is of course a rough hypothetical and not exact math, since 95x1.05 and 100x0.95 aren’t quite equal. it’s just meant to illustrate the concept)
4 Likes
Thank you I was about to type that out but you saved me the effort <3
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How about before being an elitist jerk, you work on your rotation. Casual players by far outnumber every other type of player in this game and that’s a fact. You could have simply left your response as your opinion.
The fact is only 12% of accounts have AOTC this season and only 9% of accounts have KSH this season. Whether you like it or not it is within Blizzards best interest to serve their majority playerbase. You are entitled to your opinion and can give whatever feedback you like but drop the better than thou act.
12 Likes
Talking down to someone because they don’t do end game raiding or keys is pretty cringe when people who don’t do this kind of content vastly out number those that do. It’s even more cringe when you’re grey parsing while doing it.
Their opinion on the spec and the rework is equally as valid as anyone else’s.
11 Likes
Wouldn’t it currently be, I deal 100 dmg with no pet and no lone wolf…taking the lone wolf talent brings me to 105 and then having a pet brings me back to 100? Why would the baseline dmg start at 95% and then a you need a talent to be at 100%? makes no sense
The current lone wolf is adding 5% dmg to the baseline of 100%, otherwise what’s the point of the talent?
Removing the talent lone wolf and then adding a penalty of -5% for having a pet would be you’re at 100% and it brings you to 95%.
Sure you were
This rework for Marksman is a gigantic slap in the face because it is literally Legion MM, which was widely loved and enjoyed and required minimum tweaks to it, but with different colors. We were told back then we couldn’t have that version of MM and you had to do the first rework that led us to the mess we have had to deal with ever since. And now here you are, going back to that same version of the spec but new names and new colors. The eagle is literally just vulnerability window + marked shot coming back. We’ve spent 8 years making pointless reworks and changes to just go back to Legion MM again but with new names and different paint. So why did we ever leave it in the first place instead of growing onto it?
I will say that I personally find this rework to be extremely flawed because of the idea behind it and the reasoning for it. “Marksman hunters are losing pets in general because they are a lone wolf sniper that sits in the tree and is a sharpshooter from 100 yards away. They don’t need a pet” --------- “Here is an imaginary eagle that you will be required to use because you are literally helpless without it” - What are we even doing here?
Regarding the specifics of the rework - I continue to raise concerns with the mobility issue of marksmanship. Aimed Shot having charges and a cooldown and being one of the longest hard cast abilities in the game after literally 8 YEARS OF FEEDBACK ASKING FOR THAT TO BE CHANGED continues to show that you obviously do not care about the feedback of MM hunters which makes me wonder the point of doing this thread to begin with. Like we have made it abundantly clear the literal 1 change we want and there is a refusal without reason to do it.
You refer to the rotation as “smooth and iconic” and yet every single MM Hunter in high end content would tell you that the “smoothness” goes away the moment any type of movement has to happen because our usable while moving abilities hit like a wet noodle and the only thing “iconic” about it is how terrible we are when any level of mobility is required. The fall off of MM when mobility is needed is truly “iconic”
Kill shot now benefits from precise shots except kill shot (and black arrow) hit for laughable amounts of damage compared to other execute abilities. Aimed shot triggering explosive shot early would be fine except for the fact that Aimed shot’s cast time and travel time is nearly the entire 3 second duration of explosive shot’s pre detonation phase.
That’s wonderful that we will be able to customize and change the eagle PET in the future however, the problem with this continues to be, THE WHOLE POINT OF THE REWORK IS TO NOT USE A PET ANYMORE BECAUSE WE AREN’T SUPPOSED TO DEPEND ON THEM AND YET WE ARE GOING TO BE DEPENDENT ON AN IMAGINARY EAGLE.
Overall, I’m not even disappointed because I’m immune at this point. I’ve been on these feedback threads with the same many other MM Hunters since BFA with these reworks and changes and at this point, I know all of our feedback will be ignored anyways. The 1 major change we’ve asked for for years has been moveable aimed shot OR no more charges and cooldown and a shorter cast time and literally neither have even been acknowledged so why should I care anymore?
I have no issue with the rework. In fact, I’m looking forward to not having the same rotation as BfA. Working with Streamline to cut down Aimed Shot cast time or cooldown reduction. Pairing this with the Spotter’s Mark [cough…vulnerability] will be a nice change.
If they would just tie these changes in with a Lone Wolf passive as it once was, and allow for a pet to be called as it is now, this would be fine. Additionally, if instead of an eagle, they allowed the MM Hunter choose one of their pets (stable slot?) to be the ‘helper’ that appears for the utility and disappears much like Intimidation is now. This would elliminate the developer investment of animations, appearance glyphs, and other modifications.
3 Likes
Show me a class in wow that uses bows/guns/x-bows that isn’t Pet centric, and plays like a Fantasy Sniper and I will swap in a heartbeat.
That class fantasy is currently, and was always, Marksman hunter.
This change takes that away entirely.
If it means we will get that fantasy via another class - fine, sure go wild.
I am, as ever, hopeful but not expectant.
2 Likes
I really wish they’d add another physical ranged class so they’d quit monkeying around with Hunters.
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Please don’t remove Marksman pets. I’ve played a Marksman Hunter main since WotLK and I would be devastated to see this change go through as planned. Why can’t we continue to have an option for pet use? I support quality of life changes for Lone Wolf raiders, even reversing Lone Wolf to be the default and giving us an option to spec into pet access, but taking our pets away entirely will ruin the enjoyment of this spec for solo players like myself.
I’ve had more fun playing WoW in TWW than I have in years because of the new ways to enjoy the game as a solo player and opportunities to gear up without needing to do group content. I recently went on a taming spree to get all my favorite pet looks, and was excited to see news that choosing pet specs is coming back…then get slapped in the face with the news that Marksman are losing our pets entirely. What kind of cruel timing is this? “Here’s solo content that you greatly benefit from using a pet tank for, and here’s the option to finally use any pet you choose in any situation…except for you, Marksman Hunters. You get this random Eagle. You’re welcome!” That’s some nasty work.
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How will precise detonation work exactly with a 3.0 sec aimed shot cast? Won’t explosive shot detonate before we can get a cast off?
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The beauty is it wont work.
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okay, let’s say the current baseline number is 100 then. 100x1.05 is 105. if it were changed so that having no pet gives no bonus and having a pet gives -5%, then you would adjust the numbers to make 105 the baseline instead. 105x0.95 is approximately 100, so there would be no overall nerf. the mechanic would just be conceptually reversed.
the point isn’t the exact numbers, it’s that you wouldn’t keep the current baseline number. you would bump up the baseline number by 5%, essentially “baking in” the current lone wolf and resulting in virtually no change
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That’s what they’re doing. They’re trying to sneak a new class in through a spec. With predictably disastrous results. It’s an unforced error. Real junior varsity stuff.
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