So much of this, SV’s variant of Packleader is depressingly undertuned compared to Sentinel.
Especially when Packleader adds a lot more fun in it’s playstyle compared to Sentinel.
Honestly, having a leech pet out while using mend pet on cd is a lot of self healing for bm. imo only survival should have access to it
Destro feels unstoppable.
Mage feels excellent with insane AOE and prio.
BM feels great.
Boomie is rockin
Ele is pumpin
…and then we have whatever hole MM is supposed to be in.
I get depressed as soon as i go beyond the 3-4min mark on dps with some clunky as heck rotation that doesn’t feel good at all.
This is just painful that we are launching like this and what worries me even more is someone is ok with this moving forward… Yikes. Just Yikes.
6 Likes
We essentially have 3 opportunities left for balancing:
- This week’s PTR
- Release date hotfixes
- Season start hotfixes
However, if this week’s PTR does not show they the tuning is at least going to the right direction, it will be very worrisome.
2 Likes
i think a majority of people raging about pets never even tried the PTR tbh. they got pets back and dont know the “rework” is mostly the same spec with worse CD and rng eagle proc.
4 Likes
Hello! Updated list with some new issues discovered over the weekend, only focusing on the bugs this time as time is getting limited
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Dark Ranger Issues:
- Shadow Hounds was not updated to reflect the new tooltip. It still does a physical Beast Cleave.
- Damage from your Shadow Hounds do not heal you via Embrace the Shadows.
- Whenever Withering Fire is Active, the buff on your character still says that it fires automatic Black Arrows.
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Pack Leader Issues:
- In the original 11.1 Notes, it was noted that Alpha Predator would scale multiplicatively rather than additively. This does not seem to be the case as the 50% increase from Pack Mentality does not gain this benefit, making it effectively only increase damage by 43.5% rather than 50% if talented into Alpha Predator.
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Lead from the front is supposed to increase the damage of your Howl of the Pack pets by 25% and your pets by 30% according to the tooltip, but currently:
- The Boar doesn’t get buffed from Lead from the Front at all at the moment.
- The tooltip for the pet damage increase is wrong and says 30% (spell data suggests it’s supposed to be 15%)
- The Bear damage gain does not apply if you summon The Bear first and then gain Lead from the Front.
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The Boar secondary target effect hits the main target.
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(NEW) The Bear from Howl of the Pack Leader does not get the 99% AoE damage reduction most pets do, and can die very easily from Enemy AoE damage.
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(NEW) Better Together does not increase the amount of attack power inherited from the Hunter to the pet by 5%.
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The Season 2 Tier Set issues:
- (RE-EXPLAINED) Applying Potent Mutagen via the Season 2 4-piece, will fire a Barbed Shot in any scenario, whether it aligns with the functionality of the Season 2 2-piece or not, such as:
- You have Animal Companion active and cast Bestial Wrath, Potent Mutagen is applied to both pets, so you fire two Barbed Shots.
- You dismiss a pet with Potent Mutagen active and re-summon it while in combat, will fire a Barbed Shot.
- You dismiss a pet with Potent Mutagen active and use Call of the Wild, will cause a Barbed Shot to fire if that particular pet is summoned.
- (NEW) The Season 2 4-piece proc doesn’t reduce the cooldown of Bestial Wrath.
- (RE-EXPLAINED) Applying Potent Mutagen via the Season 2 4-piece, will fire a Barbed Shot in any scenario, whether it aligns with the functionality of the Season 2 2-piece or not, such as:
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Misc Issues
- The Bloodshed spell tooltip makes no mention of the 20% increased Kill Command damage when specced into Venomous Bite.
- Dire Frenzy does not buff Hati/Frenzy by 60% for the additional two seconds of uptime it gives.
- (RE-EXPLAINED) The “Doubled pet damage bonus from Bloodshed” part of Venomous Bite does not affect Animal Companion.
- Pets will both have their own seperate buff for the Tauren racial “Brawn” and the Dwarf racial “Might of the Mountain”, and inherit the Crit Damage / Healing from the player, making them benefit twice from the effect.
- (NEW) The trinkets Junkmaestro’s Mega Magnet and Improvised Seaforium Pacemaker do not proc off Kill Command and Barbed Shot.
- (NEW) When Bestial Wrath damage bonus was buffed from 25% to 30% a few weeks ago, this buff did not apply to damage done by pets.
Thank you for reading!
12 Likes
There’s probably going to be all three. One large update for a whole mess of issues they have been trying to fix. Then, wait on patch day for all the new bugs, and have another down time the next day to fix. Then, wait until next week to get most of the buffs and nerfs out.
1 Like
They’ll have to buff it to make sense at all in pve.
In PvP, marks is going to launch one shotting things because they won’t adjust PvP mults on aimed shot and rapid fire.
I have some hope that since it is slightly less one dimensional now that it will get to retain a reasonable amount of burst in PvP as they have to tune it for raids and keys. I think the way they’ve redone bm will make it more balanced and tunable for PvP. SV also feels strong in PvP but for its same set of niches.
The big thing that could help pre empt a marks hunter solo shuffle apocalypse would be changes to the snipers advantage talent. There are very particular things that you can do without really understanding much about the rest of the spec because you get sniper shot range on the same buttons that give you double tap with it.
I hope so, I know there’s always a lot of post-patch updates and bug fixes, as well as a final balance pass at the start of the season, plus some mid-season adjustments. But if we don’t get a juicy update this week to indicate they are aware of the issues, the later fixes may come far too late into the season.
1 Like
Double tap is weak in pvp, it’s 4 extra rapid fire shots. I wouldn’t worry about it. Sniper’s advantage won’t be used in small and medium arena maps. It will be trouble in BGs though.
Overall MM will be the same - big one shots and average sustain in arena. Won’t be as bad as the auto black arrow one shots but enough to make people complain
2 Likes
Even when it behaves properly at a 40% extra aimed shot or rapidfire, it is still insanely strong. There are a lot of aimed shot modifiers. Rapid fire still chunks. Both are at close to 200% base effectiveness in PvP. For reference, the last season that doubletap existed as its own 1m on-gcd button, aimed and rapid had no positive PvP coefficients. Aimed shot was also still tuned to its 2.5s base damage coefficient with far fewer independent modifiers. I.e. you were expected to cast it more often instead of each individual aimed shot doing so much damage where even a 40% mult is a huge deal.
Being able to outrange stuff by a lot is still a big deal on small maps with correct use. Especially considering that you don’t have to accomplish a long cast to get the extra range. You just have to be in line to start rapid fire. Kill zone is actually insanely strong with it as well.
hoping next MM rework finally gives up on precise shots and 3 target minimum trick shot
4 Likes
I don’t see a problem with Precise Shots. It’s there so Arcane Shot is worth pressing. So, I’m curious: what would you expect them to do with the rotation if they took Precise Shots away?
1 Like
This is 100% true. The same like 5 people that spam brigaded this thread for weeks about pets IMMEDIATELY stopped posting feedback once pets were added back in (Despite claiming they care about the spec and play MM).
Like very clearly they don’t because the moment pets were added back, MM No longer mattered to them. The spec’s design has literally been handicapped and hijacked by people that don’t play it at endgame.
5 Likes
The rework was awful before pets were brought back. Their return didn’t change anything.
I was never asking for a MM rework in the first place, so the entire thing was an exercise in futility from the start – I wasn’t going to accept also losing pets.
It’s people who wanted a petless spec for a pet class that hijacked and handicapped MM for the worse. Don’t confuse cause and effect. The current state of MM is the fault of those who couldn’t keep their traps shut and continued pushing for less pet inclusion.
If you had known your place, which is any other ranged class, we wouldn’t be here.
10 Likes
THIS.
Quaark put it so much better than me.
I’ve said, from practically the beginning, that I don’t understand why they’re throwing RNG into MM to preserve “its historically smooth rotation.”
I said that RNG has never made for good and reliable DPS.
Every time in the past they tried to make MM a RNG spec, they mess it up. I said it was Legion MM all over again.
I looked at the history — which I played, by the way.
I’ve been called emotional and delusional (in a different thread). I’ve been accused of gaslighting. I’ve been accused of throwing a tantrum…
…when I literally said, “Look at the history. Look specifically at Legion MM. It did not survive beyond Legion for a good reason.”
And now, people who refused to listen or try to understand our warnings — that is, the long-time MM players who have seen this before — are angry and blaming something that had nothing to do with the rotation!! (Pets. I’m talking about pets.)
The rotation sucked from PTR week 1. They barely made any changes on the rotation itself! They only did bug fixes.
Pets had nothing to do with the rotation. The pet-related bugs, yes, absolutely Blizzard’s fault for failing to understand (for the 3rd time) how Hunters, as a class — including MM! — are built from the ground up with pets.
But back to the rotation. Like Quaark said, it sucked from day one of this PTR.
RNG has never, ever made a good and reliable DPS for MM.
I got shouted down on other threads, so I decided, “Fine. I’ll just sit back and watch what happens.” After all, it’s still not as bad as Legion MM.
But stop blaming other players for what Blizzard did. Stop blaming things that had nothing to do with the rotation (pets).
Place the blame where it belongs — squarely at Blizzard’s feet. They tried this massive, foundational rework mid-expansion. They tried to repeat the same mistakes that doomed Legion MM! They only focused on bugs and tuning. They haven’t acted on any of the feedback on the rotation itself.
It’s on Blizzard. Not the players.
EDIT: back in BFA beta, I expressed significant concern that the majority of MM’s DPS comes from just Aimed Shot. I said that we’re having all our eggs put into one basket. I pointed to the MoP-and-prior design, in which MM’s two heavy-hitters were Aimed Shot and Chimera Shot. (And Stampede was our big CD.)
I got shouted down by the theorycrafters and PTR testers who all said, “If you weaken Aimed Shot, then what will MM do for the burst?”
I said, just make the other shots stronger. MM needs better sustainability so it won’t be crippled every time we couldn’t depend on Aimed Shot (movement, casting time, and charges).
I wasn’t popular for that reason. It’s a major reason why I’ve stopped providing feedback on the rotation itself. I saw this coming in BFA. It’s been MM’s Achilles Heel — we have one hard-hitting ability. (Rapid Fire does help to offset that a bit, but sometimes it’s strong, sometimes it’s weak.)
And look at all the mess in the current rotation? A good half of it boils down to the changes they made with our actions around getting Aimed Shot off. 
11 Likes
Improved documentation for the Lead from the front issue.
Trueshot aside, I think the idea behind the new rotation is fine (other shots make AiS stronger and faster), but there are some weird results with the current numbers. Running out of AiS charges is very punishing since it enables the rotation to work which in turn make AiS stronger, and the current numbers will make MM run out of AiS charges even if tou take every talent that helps with that.
This may still be solved with tuning (like reducing AiS CD a bit), though it’s strange this hasn’t been done already despite feedback on it being repeated since PTR was available.
2 Likes
I do agree that the Trueshot is basically all of the problems going on, along with the weird issues with Aimed Shot.
What I’m leery about is how it feels on a low level alt or a brand-new 80 that isn’t geared yet. This population tends to get overlooked.
We’ll find out.
ret did 
even if people dont like to talk about it