Please stop trying to force us into playing caster Holy Paladin. Every single week we are seeing nerfs to the melee playstyle while getting buffs to the casts.
Let people have the option to play how they want to play.
8 Likes
It’s crazy to see even more nerfs to Beacon on top of the rest of it.
2 Likes
That’s mostly okay, paladins have been asking for power to be moved out of beacon and into its actual core spells for a long time and they finally started doing that this expansion. It doesn’t feel good to have beacons doing most of your healing, never really has outside of very early versions of the game.
There are many fights where beacon just isn’t great in a raid environment, especially depending on what tanks are being played (and now that classes/specs have even more defensive ability, putting it on “squishy” ranged is barely a thing) but because of its potential power the core spells weren’t doing enough. Was fine in M+ as well but more power to your actual spells will almost always be preferred.
1 Like
Beacon of Virtue is massive in M+, and is your only good source of burst AOE healing. If they wanted to buff the actual spells buff LoD in range, radius, and number of targets. Nerfing our best AOE burst healing to bring up spot healing is awful.
2 Likes
That is not really true, spot healing is massively important in m+ and because of those buffs to ST spells (and LoD) the beacon transfer needed to be nerfed. This will feel relatively similar in aoe scenarios, slightly less transfer with virtue while being much better in single target scenarios. Holy shock doing a lot of healing is something hpals have wanted for a long time, and the trade off is beacon transfer. It will not slow down your burst aoe healing nearly as much as you seem to think, it’s more of a buff to ST than a nerf to aoe if that makes sense. It is a net gain for m+ overall in general.
2 Likes
If it was just affecting Holy Shock and Light of Dawn that would be true, but beacons affect all sources of healing. Healing from Truth Prevails, Hammer and Anvil, Seal of the Crusader, Lightforged Blessing, and WoG among many other sources are all seeing their Beacon Healing nerfed. And many of those sources of healing are being nerfed as well.
3 Likes
I am aware beacon is from all sources of hpals healing, but holy shock getting a 40% buff, holy light getting a decent buff making it more useable outside of DF, LoD getting a 15% buff and Prism getting a big buff as well will help to counter the 5% transfer nerf quite a bit and will also help with more consistent single target healing which is good
Not saying anything about the caster vs melee stuff, only that the beacon transfer nerf is not bad due to the buffs we got to holy shock, prism, holy light and LoD, specifically those first 3 though.
I haven’t felt like hpal has had a coherent theme in a while, mostly since bfa ended, not entirely sure what it is supposed to be at this point. By that I mean we do single target, some cleave healing, no raidwide healing, we cast but in melee, it’s just a mess of stuff still imo. The mw devs figured out how to make a tree with melee and casting builds that are both very good, it’s very cohesive but when I look at the hpal spec tree I don’t feel any sort of real cohesion at all, the builds are still kind of mashed together and they can’t seem to figure out how to make melee work for hpals outside of pressing CS and holy shock for some reason.
The real reason why both builds for Mistweaver are viable is because they actively go out of their way to actually IMPROVE the spec. With Holy Paladin, all of their changes are based on their “vision” of the class.
Their vision of what the class should be causes them to have a narrow minded view that creates issues.
Look at Flash of light. They specifically said
Flash of Light and Holy Light have a lot of power tied into talents modifying their effectiveness and we would like these spells to be more effective to cast without these talents and casting these spells without Infusion of Light active to be a more viable option.
SO WHY DID THEY NERF THE HEALING BY 25% ???
If you wanted us to cast it more often, why nerf the healing of an ability that already does almost no healing?
“Oh well the infusion of light procs increase the healing now so it balances out.”
Again, they literally said that too much of the power is tied to other talents, just to double down on that idea. It is not fun cast an ability that does almost no healing.
4 Likes
The logic is definitely sound but I think people will be skeptical just because we’ve been down this road before and not gotten much out of it. Like this is what we’ve said everytime they’ve nerfed beacon but HS and our spenders still feel like they need help.
I got excited in beta when they removed Glimmer, but it ended up not mattering much because that passive healing just got replaced with different passive healing. It does seem like they’re actually addressing the issue this time though and buffing most of our direct healing spells (WoG still needs love or it will do less healing than live, and maybe LoD) so we’ll have to see where the tuning ultimately lands.
100%.
At this point I want to see them do different balancing for raid and m+ for HPal.
It sucks seeing the worst healer in m+ constantly get nerfs because they provide aura mastery + devo aura and put up okay numbers in raid.
4 Likes
Nerfing beacons means light of dawn, divine toll and prism are our ONLY alternative heals. Prism is genuinely a weak AOE heal, light of dawn will NEVER be useful/used in m+ and divine toll… well the holy shock buffs are helpful, but at the cost of all other spells producing less AOE healing from the beacon nerfs . This sucks to see continued ignorant changes despite relentless well articulated and thorough suggestions being made in the forms
2 Likes
Few points I’ve seen so far:
Beacon of Light nerf - This is fine overall considering it gives DR, but in AOE situations, we are getting gutted outside Divine Toll windows or AG LS builds. If this is intended to be only used for tanks, then that shouldn’t really affect anything to terrible.
Greater judgment nerf - it is a solid portion of healing (not super high but there), but it is nice to have.
Holy prism is our a weak, (not weakest mind you) AoE spell that is typically only used now to get Divine Favor procs to get your Holy Light usage to remove the cast time associated with it.
Holy shock healing +
Light of Dawn is seeing 0 use as is. Even buffing it’s healing, people won’t use it when we have beacon of virtue (not saying take it away), but maybe make it aoe around the paladin instead 40 yards around and possibly increase the healing even more to see use. You could even lighten up virtue with this change. As of now, it is used 0 times in M+ because it’s a waste of mana all together.
Holy Light healing increase is wonderful, but it costs to much and takes to long to cast. People will still only use it with Infusion of Light/Divine Favor combo to get it out. Unless the cast time and reduce the overall mana usage. It’s usage will still be miniscule.
Spenders:
We need our spenders to actually do healing. It’s currently used only because you don’t want to cast FoL or HL without buffs added to it. I think by making them cost 0 mana (which I think in TWW or DF they increased the mana cost of them) would make it at least manageable to use.
For Raid:
We are brought primarily for our buffs and ST healing with barely AoE healing outside of LS. Herald of the Sun is gutted to be not even able to be used unless people are stacked close enough to warrant using it. LS at least gives us AOE healing and some buffs to the raid.
In m+ we have 14 second cd and 7 sec window of casting for aoe healing in dungeons. It’s sub par and if you miss time it, you die.
Suggestion:
Increase distance to around the player for LoD. Even with it’s current iteration of healing, it’d be a net plus (think tyr of deliverance healing).
Maybe make beacon of virtue castable like the other two, but on five targets for 5% total healing to everyone and no dr instead? or 10% and no DR?
Remove mana cost of spenders. Increase WoG healing to something to feel like it’s useful again (or more HP more HPS)
Lastly,
If we are to be castadins again, we need more reason to cast HL/FoL and some type of AOE heal. That could be done with beacons be more permanent till casted again, Tyr could even make Beacon of Virtue to the whole raid for 15 secs (which would be neat as hell!)
We need a good balance between m+ and raid. Currently we are only sought out in Raid and people who always play the spec in m+. M+ it struggles to heavily beyond 14’s.
Holy shock buff - good stuff. It needs more power behind it.
This is the biggest issue. The Holy Paladin tuning is not taking M+ into consideration.
99% of our AOE healing is from beacons. If they want us to cast LOD then they need to buff it by a considerable amount FOR M+ ONLY.
And I’m saying that it should only be for M+ because I can see them buffing it for both(Raid and M+) and then nerfing it because its “too strong” in raid.
1 Like
Holy paladins need sooo many things.
- better balance between generating spells and spending spells
- not just a rebalance of modifier talents, but a complete removal
- more skill expression: abilities should have meaningful controlled interactions. (Like prism boosting holy light or giving a divine purpose proc with herald, or look at literally ANYTHING in the mistweaver kit for an example)
- stronger choices for high/low HPS output in regards to our mana ( actually, screw mana management, it will NEVER be enjoyable ever.)
- removal of one of the two wings variations in favor of making it a passive. The other remaining wings type can have a choice node to modify it’s duration and cooldown
I would really love see to holy paladins lean into being insanely defensive style healers. More shields and damage reduction.
Adding a buff applied by holy shocks, that gets removed by wog ( or a new ability) that has some interaction would be cool
- stripping the buff echos 20% of the healing in the target from the last 10 seconds
- the buff can stack, increasing the affect (whatever that might be)
- the buff allows X% of damage from cs and judgment to heal that target
- healing on targets with the buff fills a pool. You can extract from that pool to either shield a single target for a ridiculous amount, or the whole group (5 man)
I feel this way every time I comment about paladin. It feels like MW class designer is doing the Lord’s work.
I disagree here-- I honestly think the way MW and Mana Tea deal with mana management is engaging and relatively easy and allows for skill expression. Paladins had an ability like that too, kind of-- didn’t last long…
Passive AC and 1min wings. Is this a holy version of mistweaver? Yes. But druids already got Avenging Crusader-lite(Dream of Cenarius/Call of Elder Druid)this xpack, and homogenization is helping blizzard tuning woes.
Across all the healers, its starting to get a little one sided. HPal needs help, RSham has one workable hero spec and mana concerns, disc still needs tweaking, etc.
It’s so bad that almost every healer I know has a MW alt ready to go.
1 Like
And it’s not even necessarily because it’s OP or anything, it’s just incredibly well designed.
In lieu of a big “rework”, like most specs seem to get, MW has gotten a steady stream of QoL improvements and minor talent tweaks over the last 5-6 major patches. It’s ended up with a fantastic design overall because of this, and has kind of slipped under the radar since the redesign has been so gradual.
I wish every other dev assigned to a healer cared as much about their spec the same as whoever has been in charge of MW.
6 Likes
I think the key takeaway is that MW hasn’t had a redesign at all in those 5-6 patches. Instead of changing the playstyle so frequently for paladin, they would really capitalize on listening to player feedback regarding the current design and implementing small changes.
Things like the Holy Infusion change going live without a word is huge. While it wasn’t a big output change it was a huge gameplay change and was universally negatively recieved.
1 Like
Which change was that?
Holy Infusion used to be a choice node with Awestruck. Crusader Strike generated 2 Holy Power. It was essentially ninja-deleted the day before season start.