Feedback: Herald of the Sun Paladin in The War Within

[Arahgon-maiev]

@Benmarch-zuljin

I mean ok…

FV+Jurisdiction+DA = 207%

DS+Tempest = 111.6% x 2 = 223% ­­> 207%
DS+Tempest+BC= 117.34 x 2= 234% > 207%

okay so lets say we have larry, am i really gonna do unethical pad instead of blasting down his hp? considering hes a huge dps check on boss damage? your completely not accounting to prio damage. any spender damage spent on stuff like trees of lashers from gnarl root or even roots in tindrel is just wasted damage for overal padding or parse fiending

prio target is important and the only way you use ds over fv in 3 target situations is with bosses like primal council where its multiple same health bosses that need to die at the same time.

@Benmarch-zuljin

What do you mean it doesn’t hint “at all”?
How could they make it more obvious?

Like, what would it take for you to say there is?

i said later on that “over focus on damage type” is just not a good thing, and muddies the floor of expectations, ive also explained how the inital damage of sunspot will be the only thing on the tree to proc searinglight considering dots dont.

@Benmarch-zuljin

I think it is clear what they are going for, we just want them to execute it well.

i have reply on making sl work with dot damage, if it doesnt then sunpost dot and sunavatar and sun sear are dead in the water for searing light. (keep in mind im 87% sure that sl isnt supposed to work with dots)

@Benmarch-zuljin

That’s true for DA but its made inconsistent by the fact that it takes too long to gather 25 stack.

??? blessed hammer makes it very easy and fast to get a da stack in multiple target. one how in a ten target situation=11 stacks of da due to blessed hammer, you could effectively have it ready after one how toss.

if it worked with champions it would have to be nerfed to due to how csaa works. effectively in 5 target situations you have 10 stacks right off the bat the moment you hit combat.

@Benmarch-zuljin

I disagree on SL, 5% proc is fine when you hit 5 enemies constantly with DS but once you fall on ST you only get Wake hits and the initial tick of consecration triggered by BoJ once every 12 sec.

boj isnt 12 seconds tho, your not accounting for aow procs and haste reduction of boj, im pretty sure mine is about 6-7 seconds before wafting. people coom over dp despite it having a 10% proc chance but suddenly draw the line on sl 5% proc chance? community perception is one hell of a drug

@Benmarch-zuljin

Doesn’t have to be JUST the DoT.
The beam that links you to your sunspot when you pop wings could do the heavylifting on ST.

its a over glorified dot gg. if it works like helchains for unholy then frankly i dont think its gonna be much to write home about. if anything its gonna be more dangerous due to positioning. you have one start dot on the boss, then you use wog on a ally to get another sunspot active, you pop wings and you get 4 more sunspots on allies assuming no targets and if one doesnt get wasted on the boss to reset the sunspot. for a total of 6 sunspots. to have the boss between your chains you will have tmove away from your group and have the boss between you and the rest of the raid (almost like a tank) to get maximum value, assuming you dont get messed up by some kind of mechanic btw. now if current tuning is to be believed, i dont think these beams should be or will be that strong, if they are then it will be encouraging absolutely degenerate gameplay that will int your raid more than help it. this ocrouse also means if the beam does ALOT of st damage then its going to be absolutely broken in a aoe situation. use timers to use wings before boss summons adds, you got hell chains and now your all adds melt as you stack em between you and the group. ofcourse this left to be seen due to tuning.

i really dont think its possible to make herald do solid st with any build. with adding a whole lot of wording like "sunspots and sun avatar does 100% more damage on one target reducing by 20% for each target added until its 0%

[Benmarch-zuljin]

@Arahgon-maiev

your completely not accounting to prio damage

Because we’re talking about a generic situation.
Sure if you want to make the situation exactly fit your narrative as to why FV is best, its going to be.

Generally it won’t though.

@Arahgon-maiev

blessed hammer makes it very easy and fast to get a da stack in multiple target.

Yeah an effect only available in wings on targets above 20% health or if you get lucky on FV hit.
Which you wouldn’t use if there is 2 targets or more.
Furthermore, it only stacks it fast when there’s a significant amount of enemies because it’s not guaranteed blessed hammer will hit mobs twice.

@Arahgon-maiev

every boss this tier has adds that die faster from general cleave thus not worth dumping spenders on

I said in “general” and you’re coming back mentioning a specific situation on a specific tier again.

Is the current tier the only content in the game for it to be understood as THE “generic” situation?

In general, throughout an expansion, over multiple patches, through world content, dungeons, M+ and raid, on 2 target you’ll use DS if you have AT LEAST Tempest selected.

Is it that much of a controversial statement?

@Arahgon-maiev

if you thoguht i was talking about a “general situation” when the convo was always been about raiding encounters then you clearly misread the room before shoving your opinion into it

What’s the thread name again?
Does it mention “only raid feedback please”?

[Arahgon-maiev]

@Benmarch-zuljin

Generally it won’t though.

every boss this tier has adds that die faster from general cleave thus not worth dumping spenders on. theres alot of specs that straight up explode adds like tindrel roots in mythic better than ret can. if your dsing in stuff like gnarlroot adds then your 100% inting your raid for parse fiending and wasting your damage. instead of pumping down the boss. this is why theres ethical and unethical damage.

not to mention wake of ashes naturally syncs up for these adds and thus make it a way better tool for it than ds.

if you thoguht i was talking about a “general situation” when the convo was always been about raiding encounters then you clearly misread the room before shoving your opinion into it. m+ is the only content mode that has “general situations” and even there you use FV to blast priority targets in stuff like bursting. all the smol guys might get extra dam but thats way better than one big guy getting 5 stacks of extra damage and starts oneshotting the tank

[Soladris-magtheridon]

Apologies is this is repeat feedback, but chewing on Herald a little today: I think the beams are going to more trouble playing around than they are worth. Are target caps shared or separated for healing and damage? Are targets left with a hot/dot for crossing a beam or must they remain in the beam for it to have any effect? There’s just a lot of opportunity here for beams to feel really bad. Whether or not they add much, watching them do little or nothing because of unfortunate rng placement, tanks moving, etc will kinda suck.

An alternative: “During Avenging Wrath your Sunspots have a chance to lash out with Solar Flares, dealing damage/healing to all targets in wide (180-degree?) arc around the sunspot.” You could give the arc smart directionality, preferring enemies for Ret and allies for Holy. Seeing flares fling out like whips instead of beams could be really satisfying from a visceral/art perspective too.

[Koldera-thrall]

Scrolled through all if the thread just to find this.

[Greatbrae-dalaran]

Praise the sun!

[Kalrum-emerald-dream]

I offered a similar bit of feedback in the Templar feedback, regarding the ability which activates it, and for this, I go to both Holy and Retribution.

I feel like its a missed opportunity, and a bit of a corner design-wise, to be Holy Prism and Wake of Ashes to activate Sunspot for your next spenders.

For example, would it not be more thematic if Daybreak (Holy) and Final Reckoning (Retribution) activated it? Adjust the numbers of how useful the Sunspots are to make up for Holy getting less of them compared to the current version which gets 2 every 20 sec. It could look like…

Holy: Daybreak causes your next 2 Holy Power spending abilities to create a Sunspot on your target, healing over 8 seconds or dealing Radiant damage over 8 seconds.

Retribution: Final Reckoning causes your next 2 Holy Power spending abilities, and Execution Sentence causes your next 1 Holy Power spending ability, to create a Sunspot on your target, dealing Radiant damage over 8 seconds or healing over 8 seconds.

Both: 10% of Sunspots damage and healing radiates to nearby allies and enemies, reduced beyond 5 targets.

And to me, it’d feel more thematic? Could then have a hero talent to be like… “Holy Prism leaves a Sunspot on its target, and Light’s Hammer/Wake of Ashes applies Sunspots on up to 5 targets damaged/healed by it.” Or something to that effect.

[Dekardcain-whisperwind]

Any dot or debuff that is dispellable from any hero tree is just about useless in pvp without a severe backlash effect, and in S4 we still have a bonus to our currently dispelled dot. Not good.

[Benmarch-zuljin]

Thanks for the rename on Sunspot.

Dawnlight sounds good!

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

Yeah, and tying it to both Holy Prism or Barrier of Faith is nice.

[Zaim-sargeras (Zaim)]

I’ll also mention, Eternal Sun was replaced with “Blessing of An’she” in this Alpha build.

While I like the idea of naming abilities after An’she, naming a proc ability “Blessing of ________” is very misleading to the Paladin toolkit.

Paladins have had a very distinguished history with abilities named; Seals, Blessings, Auras, etc… and continuing to devalue those names, feels very disconnected.

(Similar with “Imbues” for Lightsmiths, which historically have been a Shaman thing…>.>)

[Sigmar-frostmourne (Sigmar)]

Rename it “Gift of An’she”

[Treyadin-blackwater-raiders (Treyadin)]

you had me at light whips, that would be cool

[Daiza-gilneas]

Not even gonna lie.

I’m taking Blessing of An’she just because of An’she. Let that talent be Light awful tier, I’ll still be using that.

[Vyrbur-frostmourne (Vyrbur)]

One issue i have with Herald (compared to Lightsmith) is that outside of the 30 second window to activate our Dawnlights there isn’t much happening thematically or mechanically. With Lightsmith you have other things like weapon enchants and Judgment creating a light shockwave.

I also really hate that Dawnlight is tied to Holy Prism/Barrier of Faith. It feels clunky.

[Cererin-zuljin]

You have passive burning from crit Hammer of wrath, Divine storm. or from Holy shock

[Kazrian-emerald-dream]

Would love to see Holy Prism on the same level of Wake of Ashes in terms of both power and how satisfying it is to press.

Especially if its going to be a core part of this kit, it really needs to look and feel punchy.

[Vyrbur-frostmourne (Vyrbur)]

Yeah, Wake of Ashes makes sense for Ret and in the videos i have watched it flows really nice. But Holy Prism/Barrier of Faith don’t have that same feeling which is important if you’re going to use those abilities as the anchor to this entire Hero Talent tree.

When i press Holy Prism it should feel the same as Wake of Ashes, iconic, visually interesting, mechanically interesting, thematically cool. But right now Holy Prism is this pixel noodle that doesn’t really do much.

I feel the same way about Holy Prism as i do Shield of Righteousness, i use them because i have to not because i want to. They are boring spells.

[Eviaeline-area-52]

@Vyrbur-frostmourne

But right now Holy Prism is this pixel noodle that doesn’t really do much.

Holy Prism didn’t even look visually impressive when they added it back in MoP, much less these days.

[Clocklock-laughing-skull]

Holy prism is a boring ability and visually unimpressive. Do a replacement ability for it so it lloks like golden flames or something. Or replace it all together.