I feel this could be relatively easily “addressed” by making some simple changes…
Make Searing Light trigger from the DoT damage
It already has an internal CD of 15sec, it would change virtually nothing on AoE and boost it’s damage on ST.
When we end up fighting 1 enemy, we stop using DS altogether which makes the only radiant damage we deal that can trigger SL be the hits from WoA and the initial tick of consecration
It looses all value in ST because of that.
If it could trigger on expurgation and Truth Wake, it would be a massive improvement to ST with radiant build.
Reduce the number of stacks required for Divine Arbiter with a proportionate reduction of the main target damage while keeping the AoE portion relatively untouched
OR
Let Divine Arbiter stacks work with Blessed Champion talent
Make Blessed Champion deal increased damage to main target if there isn’t any other cleave target for it.
Actually the impression i get is Herald is AOE and then Templar is ST. The Templar’s Watch talent fully emphasis that to a tee. Lesser target you do more. In other words, the real worth of the talent is directly funneled into a specific ST scenario and the worth of the Hammer gets REDUCED if there’s more targets to hit.
The Hero talents directly mirrors our endgame capstones style if we were to think about it. Today you go Divine Arbiter for ST and raids and you go strictly Searing Light and the path down for M+. So with the current set, you just add on Herald for M+ and Templar for St.
Once every 20sec on judgement cast is not enough to create a meaningful difference on SL.
SL has a 5% proc chance.
Beside, on AoE “typical” build (M+), we take the AoE BoJ (blade of vengeance).
Empyrean effect worked better when it was detached from judgement and on Vengeance hammer from SL, you could choose when to use it but I don’t want VH back, personally.
Taking blade is nerfing your single target just to spread expurgation, While taking empyrean (both talents mind you) increases both single target and AoE. You might do more damage AoE with BoV, but it hurts your single target harshly by it. I find myself using DS more then I use the verdict finishers sometimes, although I’m not high in haste atm.
I don’t see it like that. We don’t have numbers yet.
HoL hits 5 target and cost 5, I expect it to hit stronger than DS (93% AP) but not necessarily harder than a FV (179% AP) per target.
Probably something like 155% on 5 targets? Which would put the ST damage with Watch talent at 201% for ST.
Maybe 163%? Like, if hammer of light is in fact 5 Templar’s Verdict? Which would tie it closely to Templar in a way
That’s probably why this talent exist to be honest, so that we don’t end up with a 5HP spender that is a net loss to use in ST.
And in all fairness purely damage-wise, if we would want it to be HP efficient compared to FV it would need to do 298% (179/3*5).
But HoL bring other benefits so…
Empyrean hammer don’t seem to have much AoE value that’s for sure (outside of when it crits) but I feel like it’s a very good in-between as a whole.
I expect all specs/talents/hero talents combinations will be considered when tuning pve enemies health raid bosses ect, and pvp tuning. Numbers matter and are what makes buttons feel impactfull or not to press. But with that if players are becoming X% stronger, so are the enemies they face. Should be a near net neutral change from end game one expantion to the next.
Yes, a very good point.
And in that sense, everything they are adding is very much “cosmetic”.
There are small thing you might want to play around now depending on what you choose but there won’t be a “numerical gain” in power coming out of this.
The damage profile will be slightly different depending on the class/role and may make it more versatile to different type of situation, which is the real strength that will come out of this.
One of the things I’d be curious about is, and this is just a hypothetical question (always got to state that), would it be better to have Eternal Flame be a WoG improved finisher for Holy, with a Templar Verdict Improved Radiant Finisher introduced for Ret?
Personally, I love Eternal Flame, but very much dislike it being a Hero Talent as I feel that is a “core Hpal issue” that is attempting to be solved through this tree rather than baseline.
However, introducing new Holy Power themed finishers in the Hero Tress could be kindof interesting.
Holy:
Lightsmith = WoG → Sacred Shield
Herald = WoG → Eternal Flame
Ret:
Herald = TV → Celestial Hammer
Templar = TV → Final Verdict
While losing Eternal Flame could feel slightly bad on Retribution initially, looking back at my last Mythic+, I casted WoG 3 times… It could end up feeling like a pretty dead talent for Ret once the nostalgia effect wears off.
Then obviously TV and Jurisdiction can be adjusted to make up for any range loses and who really cares about JV.
Aside from that, it just feels like our capstones highlight the Radiant vs Holystrike a little too much, instead of being a bit more neutral in design. I think it’s gonna get quite old for Ret Paladins pretty quick when you just go: Left side is Holystrike → ST → Templar, Right sdie is Radiant → AoE → Herald.
Really feels like Ret is lacking ~6 more talents within the tree for customization, and the Hero talents are a little too on the nose of that conflict of damage types.
I’m gonna speak about the ret part because I’m not much of a Holy.
I would have gone with “Solar storm” or “Solar tempest” for Herald Ret , replacing divine storm obviously.
Templar seems “balanced” in what it does for both ST and AOE.
We don’t have numbers yet but we can already somewhat guess what it will be and all the little hooks involved seems to paint a pretty good picture overall.
Herald, at first glance, seems more AOE focused but the beam mechanic will always hit your party so you can use each of them to focus the damage even in ST.
It does seem to be more of a challenge to balance between the ST and AOE.
Now it does push us even further down the damage type build rabbit hole.
I don’t mind personally for Templar because it seems balanced from what we know.
If the Empyrean Hammer counts as an holystrike instance of damage, the value of Divine Arbiter will drastically increase in both ST and AOE but I don’t think I saw what damage type of those.
I am concerned that SL will still be a dead talent in ST if Sunspot don’t trigger it one way or the other.
We already know it doesn’t trigger from dots right now and sunspots will be dots soo…
I think it’s fine that the 2 builds be define by the damage type but their can’t be a 22% gap between them for ST/AOE.
They can each keep their niche but at like 7-8%, something like that.
Still, my worry is in pvp anything these hero talents grant in debuffs and dots will be dispelled just like Expergation. Specs with hero talents that augment or add direct damage are winning the design lottery.
Yeah, and it’s a bit hard to explain, but it just feels quite weird with the talents we currently have now.
If I say I want to play this Raid Build, as a Herald, chances are you’ll mention taking Penitence, Burning Crusade, Searing Light, and Expurgation to better synergize with being a Herald. There isn’t that cross synergy with the left side of the tree.
So I change it to something like this:
And you say that synergizes better with being a Herald, but now you’re playing more of the AoE build. Specing into the Holystrike build and playing Templar will just produce better results in Raids.
Then if I were to ask, well can I play this Radiant Build with being a Templar? Chances are you’ll say you can, but it doesn’t have the synergies it would if you played Herald, lol.
So it just creates this weird damage type/AoE vs ST loop, that removes that choice. I know this is a major concern amongst the community revolving around these trees and the illusion of choice. But for some reason it just seems to hit harder on Retribution than any other class I’ve seen. (Maybe Elune’s Chosen is similar)
Do the 8 Ret talents need to change, or do these trees just need more diversity?
Edit:
I guess the best way to put it is:
I feel like my Hero Talent Tree Choice is made in my spec tree, rather than after. And I’m not sure if any other specs feel that way, but yea.
why are you taking searing light tho? theres no synergy in that.
we already take penitence and expurgation in the raid build if anything we’d drop something for burning crusade for the dot increase
why would you ever play this build? this is like…turbo weird with you dropping solid talents for worse ones
heck its very likely the raid build wont change for herald unless you want to drop executioners will for burning crusade. but other than that theres really not much to change talent wise. simply because despite all the ds support, it still wouldnt be stronger than fv
for raiding we’re very likely avoiding all the ds nodes with current tuning simply cause one herald node doesnt work cause hammer of wrath has a 100% crit chance with a talent and how is currently tuned to low to take that loss for extra burn dam and a echo
Well it would depend on the interactions of Sunspots, Sun’s Avatar and Sun Sear. Those applications or DoTs could be enough to make it usable, but this again is all hypothetically speaking.
Well the point is to kindof express this.
I will only take Burning Crusade and Searing Light because I’m playing Herald. Without that synergy of being a Herald, again assuming Sunpots, etc, make taking SL worth it, it’s not worth taking those talents.
So if I want to play with Burning Crusade and Searing Light baseline, I’m kindof “forced” into being a Herald of the Sun. My Spec Talent choices dictated my Hero Talent choices.
Even in a Mythic+ situation, would you recommend me playing Burning Crusade and Searing Light with Templar? If the answer is “No, why would you lose out on that radiant damage synergy, that’s just dumb?” That’s the point of expanding the Hero Trees (or in this case, the Ret tree) to be a bit more boarder in design.
How much synergy is too much synergy and you lose those choice options?
If all I do is play Mythic+ on my Tauren Ret Paladin, do I set his Mythic+ AoE talent build, along with Herald and call it a day for the next 8 months?
even with these extra procers, i doubt searing light would be strong enough to use in st situations.
your still gambling in a small rng proc that was clearly designed to be a aoe only talent node. the reason why searing light procs alot is because each target hit has its own chance to activate it, when everything that proc it is uncapped. assuming that herald will make searing light “viable” for st raid is just kinda silly with current data and sims (again assuming if talent tree are unchanged)
whose forcing you to play these talents tho? herald at this time wont “force” you to use bc or sl.
depends on the affix honestly? cause templar seems to be very good prio and cleave targeting for dungeons with small pulls like falls or whatnot. both hero trees right now do seem to be rather aoe+st split but it doesnt seem like its split in a way that would make use play templar or herald for specific gamemodes.
consider current m+ meta show that ret often go DA or SL or other st talents depending on the affix and dungeon. its just awy to early to even think about that.
Yeah shouldn’t use forced, but the “default choice.” Taking a reference from Bolas’ WoWhead post:
but if Templar and Herald are both tuned equally on single target then it seems to me that Herald will likely be the default choice on any content with additional targets. The one situation I absolutely do not want is if Templar and Herald are reduced to being used as a single target and an AoE talent tree respectively. Ret already struggles with the damage gap between its single target and AoE talents being much wider than almost all other DPS specs, exacerbating this issue with Hero Talents is a nightmare scenario for us.
Similar to what Benmarch stated, Templar is a bit of a stand alone spec. Outside of requiring WoA and a few other talents to function, there’s really no direct correlation to any other talents directly buffing Templar’s effects.
Had Hammer of Light and/or Empyrean Hammer been Holystrike, Divine Arbiter would have been a “default choice” for any Templar build, which would include Adjudication and Blades of Light on the way to DA.
Herald on the other hand isn’t a “stand alone spec.” While it too requires WoA and a few other talents to function, there is also a direct correlation to other talents, directly buffing Heralds effects.
but if Templar and Herald are both tuned equally on single target then it seems to me that Herald will likely be the default choice on any content with additional targets.
Yeah, and I’m not trying to doomsday this problem. I’m just wondering at what point does Penitence, Burning Crusade and Searing Light become additional “default choices” for when you’re playing Herald?
There’s more than 1 target: (ST vs AoE problem)
Default Choice: Herald
Since you’re playing Herald: (Holystrike vs Radiant problem)
Default Choice: Penitence, Burning Crusade and Searing Light
If Herald becomes the default choice, and then 7-8 talents become default choices because I’m playing Herald, it just compounds on itself, and loses some customization and fun.
I just want to know if its maybe worth changing Burning Crusade to not increase Radiant damage and Searing Light to proc of named abilities more so than just “Radiant things?”
(This is also why I was wondering if Herald should introduce a ST Finisher for Ret instead of Eternal Flame)
Would this help Herald feel like Templar, where’s its a bit more of a stand-alone hero tree? Or are there more design changes in store for Retribution?
yes i agree with bolas post whole heartedly but i frankly i still think its to early to worry about that beyond than the feedback his post stated. there will always be a a divide between these hero trees, as he stated in his article “but if Templar and Herald are both tuned equally on single target then it seems to me that Herald will likely be the default choice on any content with additional targets” it wouldnt be in our best interest for both hero trees to be tuned where both do even st. its very likely that there will be some sort of niche both templar and herald strive in.
keep in mind current concern is that herald and templar will have a divide like our aoe and st build aka a 22% stark difference in priority target/aoe. as long as this % difference between the two isnt as big as our talent difference then i think its fine for one to lean on raiding a tad bit whiel the other leans on aoe. cause if it doesnt then templar is dead in the water unless theres a volcross next raid tier.
this is a good thing, hero talents that passive and only add to the regular rotation is fine, just as hero trees that add positive flavor to the spec is fine as well. compared to outlaw trickster tree and oracle tree… frankly i also dont see how templar has “no direct correlation to any other talents” this is lowkey implying herald has more “direct impact” with our talents when it really doesnt. odds are if anything, templar will adopt holystrike
again, its heavily depends if the talent tree remains untouched. which is very unlikely considering some hints in both hero trees
not exactly. you could simply gain more benefit from playing regular raid build along with herald.
im talking strictly mythic raiding now, unless theres very important cleave adds, you wont be using DS on boss encounters. FV is still considered your best dps option at 2-3 targets. THATS IF your allowed to cleave. there are specs like dh and rogue that absolutely blow important adds up faster and betetr than ret can. so frankly there would be no benefit full “aoe build” unless its a council boss like primal council.
again idk where this idea of “i have to take penitence now :(” came from cause your always were supposed to take it anyways. also divine storm even with all of its talents picked, is still weaker than FV unless theres huge uptime of 4+ adds so theres really no reason to take those either
lets look at a boss like gnarlroot for example, lashers die quickly, so sL will proc once for its internal cd and then its a dead talent until the next set of lashers. so even with the “radiant synergy” of herald. its very unlikely that SL will be used in raid even if we " were using herald"
burning crusade is the only thing on the table, and you can take that by dropping executioners will and thats only if sunspot,sear and lazers are white listed by burning crusade, theres not even a 100% assurance it will be stronger than executioners will either cause frankly 4 more seconds on ES is rather strong and benefits from sunspots, sear, and lazers as well.
i just dont see where the idea of “now i have to go aoe build if i want to play herald in raid” is coming from cause every logical and sim data i have from playing around with other tc’ers point to “no your probably not gonna be using aoe build if everything stays the same” like keep in mind this is even shoddy cause making serious data points and all that when the talent trees are probably gonna be changed for anythign but fun is like a colossal waste of time
perhaps or perhaps not, honestly eternal flame should be like denounce or harsh words and be targetable at enemies to give holy a range dps spender.
its very likely theres more design changes in store for retribution and every spec as a whole
tldr: i wouldnt worry about tuning so much until alpha is released and i doubt we’d change much of the raid tree if nothing changes
The threshold is at 2 targets *with all talents selected for it. In fact, even with less than all.
Base DS - 93% AP
Base FV- 179% AP
FV+Jurisdiction= 197%
DS+Tempest= 111.6%
It’s about the message “the game” sends from the lost synergy.
The game hints at you that all those things works together only to break the fantasy once you get into the numbers while simultaneously saying that Hero talent are suppose to add some flavor (AKA fantasy).
Its sends mixed signals.
Obviously you’re not forced to do it but it does muddy the water of what seems to make sense to do and what gives you the best result.
Ideally, in a cohesive design, these things should be somewhat in sync.
Ultimately it’s fine that SL and DA excel at different things but maybe they shouldn’t be completely devoid of value in the opposite scenario if the goal is to add some flavor.
I think ideally (to me at least), as it stands now with the talent tree we have, going Herald with Radiant damage and focusing on ST should yield a better (or at the very least similar) results as going Radiant damage and picking Templar.
With the upside of doing more damage if there is AoE to be done.
Do you see what I mean?
Likewise for Holystrike in AoE (on 5 targets lets say) choosing templar with this build should yield better or similar results compared to mixing Holystrike and Herald but have the upside of doing more in ST.
As to not exacerbate the already existing and too large of a gap between the 2 build in their specific niche and instead shrink it.
Also, I do expects changes on the trees to because of the hints dropped by some talents making no real sense unless something else is changed elsewhere.
yes but your forgetting DA which is anout 5% to holy strike damages and turn fv to a small extender with da stack generations, not to mention the chance for fv to proc how which is a stronger DA stack generator on multi target, not to mention that fv proccs da itself. all of this in mind you still us FV at 2 targets, 3 targets it gets muddied but your still want to prio target with fv and cleave off it with bov or champion
i mean thats a given with numbers, sometimes its gonna be better than “fantasy”. herald also doesnt hint at all that that it has synergy with searinglight, yall are just looking at damage type “its radiant so it must be searing light related” when keep in mind expurg, and wake of ashes are radiant as well and used heavily in the “holystrike” build. people focus way to much on fantasy that doesnt matter, theres a stark difference between focusing on the radiant damage type then making assumptions on that and asking for some nodes to be named afteer anshe.
the thing is sl and DA arnt completely devoid of value in the opposite scenario. DA has a very strong cleave aspect attached to it and you can proc it more when you use HOW in aoe. while SL with the amount of radiant damage frequent in the baseline kit can still proc in st for a hefty amount. its just like Divine purpose, Searing light is rng but whilepeople think searing light is too rng and shouldnt be used in st/raid while, they will argue up and down how DP is actually good in raid/st as well and how its rng isnt rng.
i dont think this will be the case overal, yes the goal is to have both hero trees be useable with every build. but you have to consider how strong this dot would have to be to make herald do simliar st to templar in general. but i wont lie, if a dot does more damage then a 5 cost spender then ill be kinda miffed. they can be close but i dont think herald should do more st even with the “radiant build” or if it even can do more st logically. its very clear that herald looks like the strong aoe build that hammers on rets extreme burst aoe dps. which isnt a bad thing btw. if you go full aoe dps then your comp can be one hybrid and one better st prio targeter with passive cleave (like mage)
i think people are just way to focus on the “damage type” despite herald doing little to support the searing light capstone for st/raid use. its very likely that only the inital damage of sunspot will be able to proc it, while stuff like sunsear and beams (if beams doesnt have a initial damage) wont be able to proc it. which means the only “radiant” thing you’ll take extra if anything is burning crusade, and thats only if the extra 4 seconds of es doesnt over take it (more damage instances helps es by alot.) people might think it “Feels back” but frankly i think its just a non issue cause i can just put on my fire tmog and go "boom i burn people with radiant in raid "
DS+Tempest = 111.6% x 2 = 223% > 207%
DS+Tempest+BC= 117.34 x 2= 234% > 207%
You can argue that 1 FV is 1/25 of DA and add it up which make FV approximately 225% on 2 target but that assume everything lives until you get your DA proc.
It’s muddy at 2, on 3 target it’s not even close.
Then when DA is stacked up, we use FV to use it even on AoE.
What do you mean it doesn’t hint “at all”?
How could they make it more obvious?
Like, what would it take for you to say there is?
Searing Light description:
Your abilities that deal Radiant damage have a chance to call down an explosion […]
This means that by it’s nature SL will should synergize with sources of Radiant damage.
Sunspot description:
Wake of Ashes (Retribution) and Holy Prism (Holy) cause your next 2 Holy Power spending abilities to create a Sunspot on your target, dealing Radiant damage
Sun’s Avatar description :
During Avenging Wrath , you become linked to your Sunspots , causing Radiant damage to enemies or healing to allies that pass through the beams
I think it is clear what they are going for, we just want them to execute it well.
That’s true for DA but its made inconsistent by the fact that it takes too long to gather 25 stack.
I like that it triggers off all the enemies hit by Blessed Hammer (which is a replacement for Crusader Strike in Prot) on HoW crit.
I just whished it would apply/work with Blessed champion talent or if they would reduce the amount of stacks needed to trigger it with a proportional adjustment to its damage.
I disagree on SL, 5% proc is fine when you hit 5 enemies constantly with DS but once you fall on ST you only get Wake hits and the initial tick of consecration triggered by BoJ once every 12 sec.
That’s not enough to say it has value on ST, not with a 15sec internal CD on it.
Doesn’t have to be JUST the DoT.
The beam that links you to your sunspot when you pop wings could do the heavylifting on ST.
Even if there’s only 1 boss, you’ll be linked to allies and can focus all beams on the boss.
Again, it doesn’t have to be vastly superior but if it can do comparable damage on ST whether you go Templar or Herald with radiant build, that would be my ideal scenario.
people focus way to much on fantasy that doesnt matter, theres a stark difference between focusing on the radiant damage type then making assumptions on that and asking for some nodes to be named afteer anshe.
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