Feedback: Hellcaller Warlock

There are some relatively cool talents, but overall, it’s average. Mark of xavius will help with spreading dots in aoe, which is very welcome, and hatefury rituals will be mostly good on affliction with absolute corruption, and mark is nice because it increases the tick rate of the dots, which will increase soul shard gen on destro and affliction.

But that’s about it for cool talents that actually do something.

I am very disappointed with the general direction warlock has been going after aberrus.

s4 shadowlands lock was glorious, and they have done nothing but downgrade it since.

Thats not how I read the talent. From what I understood wither stack in similar way agony does. But they all are independent of each other. Meanwhile the shadowflamme effect is a direct dmg based on how many stack u have. So the 5sec taken off should be worth all stack since the dot dmg will increase according to stack

My initial thoughts…

EDIT: Changing this post after finding out that Wither will be instant cast.

Still a bit underwhelming.

I just read that Wither will be instant cast for both Destruction and Aff, this seems like a good choice.

The issue I have now is… if you simply gave us instant cast immolate, would this really feel that much different?

Either way, Immolate probably should have already been instant cast. It’s a slow spell in an already slow and clunky spec. Forcing us to use 10 talent points to fix a broken spell, and allowing us to turn a dot into another dot… does seem underwhelming.

There’s also issues with interactivity. Wither will allow you to spend shards more frequently, hopefully, but that seems like all it will do. It’d be great if it interacted with other spells in a meaningful way.


A side gripe.

If you’re setting these hero talent pages up to be 10 talents which essentially build into one spell… why? It’s a huge waste of potential. Wither for example could be a more complete ability without having to spend 6 talents in order to unlock the full thing. In in the slots that you’ve now saved you could add interactivity and ability association and make the trees MORE INTERESTING.

Every tree is the same way, who decided this was the way to go? It’s not a good idea to set them up like this.

I understand that you guys are trying to futureproof to some extent, but it’s boring. 10 talent points to get one ability… is boring.

5 Likes

As an initial concept this tree is good. It isn’t even alpha yet so it’ll be tuned and cleaned up. Having immolate replaced and X dot replaced for Aff is probably the best outcome for a tree that is to fit both specs. I get that Destro players wanted “insert giant fireball” spell but that wouldn’t fit Aff at all. In all it creates an easy dot to juggle that has some passive interaction and an execute-ish mechanic which could work. A lot of this I’ll have to wait till you can actually play around on ptr to make a final judgment.

Why is there DoT Management for hellcaller? Where are the big nuke abilities?

3 Likes

No. This is terrible gameplay and MR keeps Aff viable in ST without breaking council fights.

1 Like

Agreed. It’s also a good qol change for mplus as it helps you get wither out on multiple targets quickly outside of Cata windows.

1 Like

Season 4 shadowlands lock was extremely broken. Like DKs on release in wrath broken.

1 Like

My main question is at what stack count will Wither be stronger than Corruption, because if Wither isn’t technically stronger until it like 6+ Stack or when it’s acute then Afflictions damage is now based off 2 ramp DoTs, which is really unfun for M+ especially lower levels and what will be the new Heroic queue.

delete malefic rapture from affliction!

3 Likes

I got a better idea make Wither for Destro cast Cataclysm(INSTANTLY). Immolate/Wither Ticks can reset the CD of Cataclysm. When it’s reset by immolate ticks it always auto crits damage is increased by crit chance plus radius is made extra 25% or something.

Hell keep it like it is but just add what I just posed in to “Wither”.

Feels very affliction based rather than anything to do with destruction.

And lord, Affliction don’t need another button to press. They need a pruning. Badly.

3 Likes

I like the idea of our fire spells being converted to shadowflame and they might leave an extra passive burning dot effect on the things it touches. Keep Chaos bolt as Chaos energy tho.

1 Like

Not picking on you, but it really baffles me when someone chooses to play a pure dps class, but refuses to use the other two specs. I get you may like one more than the other two, but you’re willfully choosing to handicap yourself. It’s like people who pick druid and then complain about having to shift into forms.

1 Like

Oh yeah, this is also great - Chaos Bolt is Chaos damage… will it not benefit from Xalan’s Ferocity/Xalan’s Cruelty? Having 0 talents that interact with the main portion of Destruction’s kit (besides an extremely minor interaction with Malevolence) makes this spec 100% DOA for me.

I think we really need clarification on this. Roaring Blaze had a similar wording and did not work with Chaos Bolt, before it got changed at some point to list the actual abilities it worked on.

People didn’t really enjoy the buffing Incinerate aspect of Burn to Ashes with the argument that they want to cast powerful Chaos Bolts, not buff Incinerate… this feels the same debacle with Hellcaller, but with Immolate instead.

1 Like

no, it won’t, roaring blaze does not work with Chaos Bolt

After having some time and reading the discussions i want to try to give some thoughts about the presented hellcaller talent tree from the perspective of both specs as well.

THEME

After at first being very much on the fence about the theme of the tree i since then came around and have to say that fundamentally i like the shadowflame aspect the tree provides. While Satyrs are not neccessarily what i would think about when thinking destruction it can definitley work out in the end.

Now first i want to lay out what themes i would expect from an affliction and destruction hybrid. From the affliction side i’d expect the damage over time aspect being brought a little bit more into the focus while from destruction i’d want to see the theme of direct damage spells that look good and feel good and somewhat explosive to press.

In this tree i feel like the thematic aspects destruction should bring into it fell somewhat short outside of things like a crit chance increase and the flame aspect of shadowflame damage, while the affliction aspect of damage over time is more in the foreground and also well done in my opinion.

I would welcome to see some satisfactory direct damaging components be incorporated in the tree in future iterations, the only form of that currently seems to be the ultimate node of malevolence which is a one minute cooldown.

TALENTS

Wither: Bestows a vile malediction upon the target, burning the sinew and muscle of its host, dealing Shadowflame damage over 18 seconds. Replaces Corruption (Affliction) or Immolate (Destruction).

I quite like this one. Replacing immolate and corruption with a themed shadowflame dot feels like a cool thing to do. Also making it instant for destruction is a very nice qol change for the spec. Simple and has good possibilities to be built upon.

Xalan’s Ferocity: Shadow damage increased by 5%. Fire damage increased by 5%

Simple tuning knob , a bit boring but alright. Would be interesting if existing shadwoflame spells double dip on this (shadowburn comes to mind or even chaosbolt being both of these spell schools)

Blackened Soul: Your damaging abilities further corrupt enemies affected by your Wither, increasing its stack count by 1. Each time Wither increases it has a chance to become acute, dealing Shadowflame damage to its host every 1 second until 1 stack remains. Wither will always become acute after reaching 8 stacks or when its host reaches 20% health.

Now this is the juice of the mechanic it feels like and somewhat of an echoing void lite. Building up the stacks on wither for then have a strong effect is possibly very strong and very cool. Here i think the resulting effect of a rapid tick down with shadowflame damage is very much on the affliciton side of things and this could be a good opportunity to put in some destro flavor into the mechanic that is already more afflictiony at it’s base as it builds up on a dot.
Outside of that this talent raises some questions for me:

  • It says damaging abilities increase stacks. How exactly will it work? Will it be damage events (so every rain of fire tick could increase stacks?) will it be per cast of an ability (only the first damage event of an ability like rain of fire or channel demonfire or drain soul counts?). This sounds like it could be very strong very quick and maybe lead to some not so fun gameplay where you for example start channeling drain soul just to cancel it to recast it on gloabal to gain stacks or something like that.

  • is the 20% health clause a permanent thing as in wither is acute on every target with 20% or less hp and will instantly tick down whenever a stack gets applied, or a one off once the target hits 20%?

Xalan’s Cruelty: Fire critical strike chance increased 10%. Shadow critical strike chance increased 10%.

Same as the other Xalan node, a simple but maybe effective tuning knob with double dip potential for some spells (would really love a clarification)

Choice Node: Mark of the Legashi and Aura of Enfeeblement

  • Mark of the Legashi: Curse of Weakness also applies Curse of Tongues.
  • Aura of Enfeeblement: Enemies within 10 yards are affected by your Curse of Weakness and Curse of Tongues at 75% effectiveness.

While i really love the aura of enfeeblement being brought (back) into the game for warlocks, i massively dislike it being locked into a hero talent tree and would really love the aspect of aoe curses to be backed into the base class somehow.

Choice Node: Zevrim’s Resilience and Illhoof’s Design

  • Zevrim’s Resilience: When you consume a Healthstone, you also restore 10% of your maximum health as Soul Leech.
  • Illhoof’s Design: Sacrifice 10% of your maximum health. Soul Leech now absorbs an additional 15% of your maximum health.

These both seem kind of … weak? Now warlock is already pretty tanky so i dont think of this as too bad but neither of these talents make me very excited.

Choice Node: Hatefury Rituals and Bleakheart Tactics

  • Hatefury Rituals: Wither deals 100% increased damage but its duration is 50% shorter.
  • Bleakheart Tactics: Wither damage increased 15%. When Wither gains a stack from Blackened Soul, it has a chance to gain 1 additional stack.

I am somewhat afraid of Hatefury Rituals in the context of both specs. Affliction currently is already known to overflow on the management aspect of its dots and debuffs and making corruption basically a 9 second dot wont be helping there (also how does it interact with Absolute Corruption). In destruction a 9 second immolate (even if instant cast) doesnt sound much fun either as i generally like to cast my direct spells alot more than reapplying a dot. Also (a general fear i have) wither might lead to Internal Combustion creeping back into being played and this is a talent that already isnt liked and will be even less fun with a 9 second dot that could lead to the gameplay of wither into chaosbolt into wither into chaosbolt and so on.

Bleakheart Tactics sounds fine to me, just some basic strength increase (though also possibly very strong if stacking up works with damage events like rain of fire ticks)

Mark of Xavius: Agony damage increased 10%. Agony is now a combo skill (Affliction). Directly recasting Agony within 2 seconds applies Agony to 1 other nearby enemy. Wither damage increased 10%. Wither is now a combo skill. Directly recasting Wither within 2 seconds applies Wither to 1 other nearby enemy (Destruction).

To be honest i am not sure what this talent is made for. Having an easier time spreading agony sounds quite nice and could help the build up before hitting a 8 target capped vile taint to have a wider spread but what does destruction get out of the this node?
I’d think you want cataclysm to spread wither easily on many targets (except one expects this to be for situations without cataclysm which sounds like it could happen that you dont take cataclysm in aoe scenarios again and that in my opinion sounds awful especially after how good it feels as a spell in the current m+ season). Also does combo spell mean anything special or is it just a categorization for this behavior?

Cull the Weak: Casting Wither directly or refreshing Wither with less than 4 seconds remaining causes Wither to gain 3 stacks.

This talent may not seem like much but is possibly really awesome qol for both specs. It allows for wither to be a very good instant cast for movement which destruction desperatly lacked and while affliction can refresh its dots this has actually some more use than this as it also applies stacks. The condition of refreshing with less than 4 seconds sounds like a nice way to incentivise more thought behind when to mass refresh your withers with somehing like cataclysm or seed of corruption.
Some questions i ask myself when seeing this:

  • if no wither is applied does the 2nd condition still apply so the first mass appliance would apply a 3 stack wither?

  • Afflictions aoe gameplay currently revolves around spamming seed of corruption oout while this talent reads like it would want you to not do that and time a seed right to gain the wither stacks. Will there be some changes to afflictions aoe gameplay loop to accommodate for that or does this talent want to encourage a different appraoch while still keeping the current sow the seeds gameplay as a possiblity?

Mark of Peroth’arn: Blackened Soul deals 5% increased damage per stack of Wither (Affliction). Agony deals damage 10% faster. Wither deals damage 10% faster (Destruction).

Neat talent. Increaes shard generation as well for both specs which is a neat side effect for affliction that could feel shard starved at times (i have different opinions on destructions pace of shard generation but it’s still a neat side effect for destruction as well).

Malevolence: Dark magic erupts from you and corrupts your soul for 20 seconds, causing enemies suffering from your Wither to take Shadowflame damage and increase its stack count by 3 (Affliction). While corrupted, your active Withers are acute, your haste is increased by 10%, and Malefic Rapture grants 1 additional stack of Wither to targets affected by Unstable Affliction. While corrupted, your active Withers are acute, your haste is increased by 10%, and Chaos Bolt grants 1 additional stack of Wither (Destruction).

Dark soul (jr.) i missed you. I think this reads really cool as it sounds like a flashy aoe burst effect (thumbs up) and then more haste (we like haste). The aspect i am not too sure about is the extra wither stack from chaos bolt and malefic rapture. I expect it to be deliberate that the increase only exist for your primary single target spender but i am somewhat unsure how that will feel in aoe situations as you miss out on the effect if you dont want to just play single target in aoe which could possibly feel bad.

CLOSING THOUGHTS

To summarize i think the tree grew on me after thinking about it some more after its release. I think bringing in a shadowflame theme to both specs is something that can fit in well and is very cool although currently the tree feels more about incorporating affliciton into destruction than also incorporating something from destruction into affliciton. I think this a very good base in terms of gameplay improvements and with some fixes to the thematic shortcomings for one of the 2 specs it is desgined for could very much be a hit in the end.

3 Likes

Its not getting removed

This x100.

I actually prefer aff. But I also enjoy both demo and destro and play them when they are clearly the superior choice.

As the devs can see, Warlocks are not happy with these talents. I want to give my suggestions on how better Hellcaller could be for both Affliction and Destruction. I will use some of the current Hellcaller passives and ideas to help fill in the gaps. I would much rather see a compete rework of Hellcaller instead in favor of Destruction but lets try to salvage this mess.

Row 1

Shadowflame - We’ve had this in the past and Dragonflight further explored Shadow flame magic. It could return to us in its old form with increased range on it.

Row 2

1 - %increase shadow/fire damage.
2 - Shadowflame has a chance to increase your soul shard generation with each tick.
3 - %increase to crit

I am a firm believer that our soul shard generation for Affliction and Destruction needs to be buffed.

Row 3

1 - Pick one. Your Demon applies either Curse of Weakness Or Curse of Tongues.
2 - Pick one. Shadowflame has increased crit chance Or Shadowflame dot ticks faster
3 - Pick one. Consuming a Healthstone also restores 15% of your soul leech Or Soul leech now absorbs 5% up to a maxium of 18% damage.

Row 4

1 - Damage from Cataclysm and Seed of Corruption applies the Shadowflame dot.
2 - Immolate and Curse of Agony tick faster.
3 - Each tick of the Shadowflame dot has a chance to reduce summon Darkglare and Infernal cool down.

Honestly, Grand Warlocks design or Wilfreds (what ever you want to call it) should not be on a fixed cool down like it is now but rather something we could work towards thats not over powered

Row 5

Casting Chaosbolt or Malefic Rapture casues targets that have the Shadowflame dot to erupt for X amount of damage.