Feedback: Hellcaller Warlock

Classes Warlock
142

I think the trees serve destruction on a mechanical level. But it really feels you guys have eschewed the thematics for destro. One summons demons and the other is centered around a dot that replaces immolate.

Would it have hurt to make destros summons exclusively be abyssals, infernals, felflames ect? Even if they did the same thing?

Hellcaller is all about wither this and wither that. Im sure wither will hurt, but I do question the image of destro being about pushing a dot. Internal Combustion will probably do something cool here?

143

Shame the tree all about Satyrs didnt allow up the option to use a Satyr demon pet.

6 Likes
144

my guess is that it is going to be off the gcd and you can just macro it. i don’t find these types of things bloating anything.

145

FIRST IMPRESSIONS - As an affliction main, I am so excited by these talents, it seems like some really fun interactions and power in both aoe and st. It reminds me a bit of the Dagger of Necrotic Wounding (shadowlands s2 seasonal affix power) that was so great for aff. Also a nice mini cooldown in malevolence is very welcome.

DESTRO FLAVOR - As has been pointed out this tree needs more destro flavor, but not I think a complete change. I think it would be pretty easy to change some of the straight dmg nodes to give more flavor. For example: Change Xalan’s Ferocity to say: all your fire dmg is now shadowflame dmg, deals 5% more dmg, and is purple in color. That would be awesome! Purple fire would be thematic and cool (and I reaalllly want it). You could also change Malevolence so that the initial dmg that it causes doesn’t erupt, but rather you shoot a barrage of shadowflame at each target with wither. Now we’re purple fire slinging hellcallers, and it’s a lot more destro.

WITHER STACKING - One thing I’m concerned about is that wither will only stack on dmg abilities rather than on dmg instances (unlike the dagger of necrotic wounding). That might be really bad for say drain soul, incentivizing cancelling and recasting rather than full channeling.

ABSOLUTE CORRUPTION - Unclear if AC will remain in TWW, but assuming it does hopefully there are cool combos with wither - that actually work. For example comboing with Hatefury Rituals might be really good (and finally give AC a niche, since it’s not really taken anymore). Otherwise Hatefury Rituals is going to be awful to play with in ST, aff has enough short duration spinning plates (though in AOE with seed it might be awesome).

AOE CURSES - While the cursing ability in this tree seem good for PVP, Warlocks really need AOE smart cursing in the class tree (not locked to any spec or hero talent - because that will really pigeon warlocks into that in dungeons). This could be warlocks signature dungeon utility - adding some version of impending catastrophe as a capstone or even better in the center of the tree (doesn’t need the dot portion but it could be welcome as well).

DOT REFRESHING - I don’t know what Mark of Xavius is trying to do, but please just give warlocks the ability to catch and refresh AOE dots with abilities like vile taint/cata (this needs to be in the base tree not hero talents), manual refreshing is a legacy that doesn’t have a place in fast paced modern WOW.

2 Likes
146

Sort of offtopic, but that’s actually the norm rather than atypical. Players generally identify with a singular spec over the class as a whole, such to the extent I believe Devs have even straight up acknowledged it a couple of times (with the big discourse coming in Legion as part of the Artifact Weapon discussions). Other than FOTM or people who just want to absolutely min-max who will both reroll for even a few percent gain, it makes sense. The majority of people play for fun, after all.

4 Likes
147

You can’t have it both ways. You want to play for fun, fine, so be it. I have zero issue with it. But you can’t also complain because you’re too lazy to switch specs.

1 Like
148

I’ve collected my thoughts some more, and want to build upon my previous message. Primarily a Destruction Warlock so feedback will be from that perspective.

Pros

  • Core Mechanic is a DOT that both classes regularly maintain in all forms of content
  • New DOT is instant cast, great for destruction
  • Combo skill talent, makes applying much less tedious
  • Capstone is another CD, for destruction a welcome addition as our rotation is minimal

Cons

  • Three flat % modifier nodes, comes across boring and uninspired.
  • No core rotational abilities mentioned anywhere in the tree other than a minimal change during Malevolence. While Wither makes for significant gameplay implications, the rest of the tree feels entirely too passive and uninteractive.
  • Core mechanic is a DOT, that has stacks and culminates in a strong DOT. Malevolence as it reads does little other than remove the need to stack. Some affliction fantasy, almost no destruction fantasy, unless the initial corruption has a distinct visual and direct shadowflame damage element or something. This could simply be a description issue, or potentially solved with visuals and better descriptions.
  • I think this happens in many trees, but the choice nodes don’t feel like meaningful choices.

Suggestions

  • For flat % nodes and a passive tree(outside of wither): While tuning knobs are fine and necessary, they’re a lot more interesting if they interact with abilities. Adding in interaction with core rotational abilities from each spec (for Destruction do X, for Affliction do Y) replacing flat nodes makes the tree more interactive, more exciting, enhances class fantasy.
  • For fantasy: I have discussed this much and realized, even if the mechanic stayed exactly or mostly the same, but instead of becoming “acute” it “rained fire/erupted in a pillar of flame/struck by a shadowflame bolt each second until stacks deplete” it would feel much more destruction based. As we don’t know what “acute” looks like, this could simply be a description issue. Of course you could also change the capstone or the “acute” effect to actually be more “destructive” rather than DOT, but either I feel would go a long way to improve fantasy.
  • For meaningful choice nodes: The worst choice nodes are nodes that both apply to the same aspect of gameplay in different ways, whether its damage increases or defensives etc. When this comes to damage, sadly whatever sims higher will be used. From reviewing other trees the best meaningful choice nodes in my opinion seem to come from: personal benefit vs group benefit, content vs content(raid vs m+), or two cool bonuses that are unrelated but have better use cases (eg DR vs mobility). These choice nodes seem less exciting to me. Curses are so niche, don’t like the idea of having to make my Ranged DPS not so ranged. Healthstones are boring, and may not even be used. Soul Leech can be useful but still boring, Warlocks are already very tanky.

Random Brainstorm Ideas for fun:
Use these how you see fit :stuck_out_tongue:

  • Acute Withers have a chance to make your next Chaos Bolt a Shadowflame Bolt and cast X% faster.
  • Chaos Bolts that strike withered enemies apply “Searing Pain” dealing X% bonus damage immediately/overtime/splash damage.
  • Enemies struck by CDF immediately consumes X stacks as acute Wither stacks.
  • Combo Cast of Wither have a chance to make your next incinerate instant/deal additional damage.
  • Utility Choice Node Ideas: Burning Rush costs an additional X% less health and increases your movespeed by an additional X%; Demonic Gateway grants everyone who uses it X% movespeed afterwards; Shadowfury is now instant cast; Shadowfury has an additional charge; Mortal coil heals X% more and now stuns the enemy; Dark Pact shields for an additional X% and/or costs X% less health, and the shield is applied to a nearby ally at Y% effectiveness; Demonic Circle: Teleport gives you X% damage reduction; Soulwell becomes Well of Flames and grants Flame-touched Healthstones that heal X% more but deal Y% damage overtime after.
6 Likes
149

“You’re not allowed to give feedback on a painpoints of the spec you play because you don’t play every spec” is a rather odd assertion. Wouldn’t someone who only plays the spec be in a better position to comment on the pain points of it? Affliction’s (like Shadow and Balance’s) frustration factor in low level mythic+ is well-known and nigh universally acknowledged – to the point it was a bit of a meme a bit ago where balance was the best DPS spec for M+ and wildly overperforming everyone else but only on keys above 20.

Granted and more on-topic, the feasibility of actually fixing that issue is another question. Balancing DoT classes is something of a nightmare, one which the devs have struggled with for practically the game’s entirelife span at this point. It’s why Balance, Shadow, and Affliction keep getting reworks (and why MR exists as it does now – its whole existence is as a lever to balance the ST vs cleave/multidot problems DoT classes have). This final bit ties in to some affliction main’s issues with Hellcaller – MR exists to prevent the spec from being either hilariously overpowered (ala MoP/Legion) or being nerfed into oblivion. However overall the tree seems quite well received by Affliction minus that one complaint.

2 Likes
150

A lot of the trees seem to be forgetting about the classes core mechanics… no new demon pets for Warlocks, no new shapeshifts for Druids, it just seems lazy.

But yeah I agree. A Satyr pet, which doesn’t even need to be a new pet, it could easily just be an Imp replacement, would be perfect for this tree.

3 Likes
151

Feedback by M+ only player. Affliction only.

Name

Not the worst, not the best.
I don’t like “Hell” part of it and I don’t think it’s matching to the keystone ability.
I’m calling Hell? What do am I calling anyway?
I’m not calling anyway, I’m spreading flame inside the body to burn it from inside…

I’m Flamesower / Flameseeder / Flamespreader

Theme

I like that spells are from Shadowflame school. Hope to see nice animations of shadow and fire together as in last raid of Dragonfilght, and maybe shadow and green fire if someone decided to did felfire warlock question for destro spells.

Gameplay

Would I play it?
Yes because it looks cool, replace existing boring ability and move it to new level.
No because Affliction base on spreading Corrupion only by Seed of Corruption in AoE. Some talent points from this tree even doubledown on Seed spam playstyle, which does not vibe with me at all :frowning: Would like to see possible build in M+ which does not require to take Seed of Corruption at all and gives a way to spread Corruption differently.

Blackened Soul
Malefic Rapture cost 1 shard and hit one target ones, does it effect 1 Wither stack?
Seed of Corruption cost 1 shard and hit one target 3 times (3 seed explosions in AoE), does it effect 3 Wither stacks? Does it mean more of Seed spam than even before?
Would be nice to see something alternative against seed-spam gameplay in AoE. I want to be able to play pureMalefic Rapture in AoE (no Seed talented) and make competitive damage to Seed spam.

Hatefury Rituals
Seed spam as it’s only way to keep up with 9 seconds dot if Siphon Life is still a case.

Malevolence
In Dragonflight the Dark Soul was removed because stacking cooldowns was too powerful… which it was. Now, we see baby version of Dark Soul back again.
Worst case we would have Soul Rot, Vile Taint, Malevolence and Darkglare to manage as cooldowns. And Affliction should be about manage dots, not cooldowns.
Why can’t we have Darkglare/Infernal talent just somewhere in the middle of the tree (easly to access) and tailor talent around this button and not creating new offensive cooldown?

Summary: Hero tree looks very good, but in combine with current Affliction it’s meh in result. Adding new cooldown can possible turn Affliction into cooldown management spec, instead of dot management. Affliction already feels like Seed spammer more than dot manager, sadly. As reminder in telant description: A master of shadow magic who specializes in drains and damage-over-time spells.
Drains, dots… not Seeds should be core gameplay in all; raids, M+ and PvP.

1 Like
152

Genuinely curious, how would you like to see corruption spread in AOE if not seed?

153

With wither replacing corruption, does this mean all the original talents that effect Corruption will also apply to Wither?
I think it’s important that previous talents don’t get invalidated to accommodate new ones that you’re adding now.
Also make Oblivion (pvp talent) into an empowered proc of Drain Soul/Shadow Bolt/Chaos Bolt. Such a neat spell and we only get to use it PvP. Since it’s something we can take with both specs, it feels like a choice that would make a lot of sense for this crossover tree.

154

I found the direct damage Destruction component of this Tree buried at the top of the description of Malevolence:

Dark magic erupts from you and corrupts your soul for 20 sec, causing enemies suffering from your Wither to take Shadowflame damage and increase stack count by 3.

So long as the eruption that causes Shadowflame damage is actual bolts of shadowflame flying from you to your targets, this CD brings a Destro element to it.

Yes, its in the form of a 1 minute CD, but there really isn’t any comparable ST spell between Destro and Aff to make the Shadowflame mechanic spell because Drain Soul and Incinerate are VERY different and SB Affliction is a lie.

Also the passive crit buff is an increase to Destro’s shard generation that means we get to cast Chaos Bolt more often.

Now they just need to make Cata baseline so Destro can enjoy both of its Hero Talents in M+…

2 Likes
155

It would have to work with Haunt instead, since it’s fairly iconic for Aff and the Soul theme of it fits Hellcaller. Then the Destro equivalent would be upgrading Conflagrate or Shadowburn, depending on how the new spell works.

156

Except haunt isn’t taken in every situation, perhaps UA would work as a better analogue for this?

1 Like
157

I love the idea of Aura of Enfeeblement, but it being a 10 yard range is concerning.

As a Warlock, I’m not a very big fan of standing 10 yards from a mosh pit filled with 7 foot tall, large neck men with great swords the size of a skyscraper. Me, myself and the dress made out of paper mâché that I wear would much rather stand 20 yards away from such hazards, maybe further.

4 Likes
158

I love this tree for destruction. Immolate being replaced by a stronger instant cast is super cool and will make getting damage out even easier in PvP.

The theme is also really cool. I see a lot of hero specs struggling to find a solid theme lore wise, and this one has been in the game since vanilla, love it. This also really gives Night elves a bit more lore friendly ways to play a warlock.

It seems the main concern I see posted here is that there is no damage boosts to direct damage skills here, and I understand that. I guess I just didn’t care about that because destro is already so burst oriented. It would be nice to have some boosts to the main destro spells somewhere, but honestly it doesn’t bother me personally.

4 Likes
159

To be honest… does is matter? With current gameplay Corruption is almost ignored as the spell, just press from time to time during boss… just Seed in Aoe all the time.
Sky is a limit…

If you ask me about mine “full go” I would say; combine Agony and Corruption for Affliction. Keep Vile Taint as it is, make it spamable (no cooldown) but not refreshing agony duration when casted, just to apply it. Make refreshing Agony by hand little easier. Being dot spec does not mean having ten dots to play around, have one, powerful and play around it.

When we would like to little around; Shadow can spread Pain with VT, Moonkin can spread SF withing 8yd with one button. We can copy any of it or make own unique, ticking UA spreading Agony. Damaging Malefic Rapture applying corruption… Sky is a limit… and it does not matter how we will do it, as we as we already easily doing it by pressing Seed.

To add last point above it all, maintaining Agony, Corruption and Siphon Life as active spell was maybe fun, but in TBC. Problem is that it was 18 years ago… Now we have new layers on top of it but I don’t think final result made it’s point, sometimes more is not better.

160

I mean not exactly no, while I respect your point of view that this tree fits destruction, the point for many others is that it doesn’t, and it’s not about the damage boost.

Wither is mechanically nice immolate replacement, but does it really feel Destruction? Not really no. The actual DMG boost and output is a tuning pass from being great or bad, that’s not the issue here; it’s how the tree relates to Destruction

Different opinions are fine, but no it’s not about the DMG boost - just want to be super clear that the focus is on the theme

1 Like
161

Not really.

Dot classes are never going to be good in low level mythic plus. Not every spec has to be good in all content at all times.