It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
Oh, I understand that both sides are waking up to the fact but especially Alliance that the years of mindless strategies that heavily favored them no longer works nearly as well.
On the other hand I feel things are finally fair again and I also will say it's a tad ridiculous the extremities some people are taking their assumptions that things are unfair just because nothing is working out or everyone is.
I have lost games simply because Alliance was better and our strategies crumpled over them simply being better players. Defending Galv means nothing if you get wiped for example.
It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
I had a game last night where they held up at shb until we met them. It was a struggle until we convinced people to go around and take shgy. Once we got that they got smashed in between the groups. We were able to run over them after that. They tried playing smart but they didn't keep the gy like they should have.
It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
Oh, I understand that both sides are waking up to the fact but especially Alliance that the years of mindless strategies that heavily favored them no longer works nearly as well.
On the other hand I feel things are finally fair again and I also will say it's a tad ridiculous that people seem to think everyone goes right or goes wrong for them and hence it is now unfair.
I agree 100%. I remember back in the day after they moved the Horde starting point back, and Horde was losing badly. That trying to capture Dun Baldar was like trying to invade Switzerland, whereas the Alliance had it easy because Frostwolf Keep was like Kansas. =)
Im in an AV game right now and the Alliance took hold of the hills around Balinda and trapped Horde that got impatient, the meta is constantly in flux which is a good thing. Unfortunately they lost their footing and its going against them.
----- Isle of Conquest I would maybe tone down the damage on Hanger a little bit. Being the only node that cannot be fought against other than taking Hanger itself, I would think the Airships should do the least amount of siege damage. Of course, I will need to play through more IOC games to get a real feel for it. It is likely that if Hanger is so dominant that there will be more fights for it so WS/Docks can become sneakily good since no one considers them.
... Alliance are more interested in and do more PVE. That means Alliance has higher average ilvl so your gear adjustment buffs the Horde NPCs more.
From where do you get that? I'm very curious.
Blizzard has stated elsewhere in the forums that Horde are much more likely to activate warmode, which explained the 2:1 advantage Horde have/had in warmode shards. I think that reflects a much stronger interest in PVP on the Horde side.
I suppose it's possible that Horde players just play more hours per week and thus get both more experience in PVP and better gear in PVE; if there's empirical evidence for that, I'd be interested.
Alright now, I haven't bothered to look to see if it's been mentioned but the stealth popping is really obnoxious. My druid can't come within 15 yards of any NPCs without being popped out of stealth in AV. Is this intended? I don't see rogues having issues? Are druids' stealth just crap now or is this AV only?
(specifically the bowman and NPCs in either mines)
I think Blizzard is separately tuning stealth effectiveness. I don't think it has anything to do with AV.
Blizzard has stated elsewhere in the forums that Horde are much more likely to activate warmode, which explained the 2:1 advantage Horde have/had in warmode shards. I think that reflects a much stronger interest in PVP on the Horde side.
I suppose it's possible that Horde players just play more hours per week and thus get both more experience in PVP and better gear in PVE; if there's empirical evidence for that, I'd be interested.
<span class="truncated">...</span> Blizzard has stated elsewhere in the forums that Horde are much more likely to activate warmode, which explained the 2:1 advantage Horde have/had in warmode shards. I think that reflects a much stronger interest in PVP on the Horde side.
I suppose it's possible that Horde players just play more hours per week and thus get both more experience in PVP and better gear in PVE; if there's empirical evidence for that, I'd be interested.
I've just always thought Horde was the better faction at both. Seems PVE leaderboards are typically Horde dominated.
Thanks. Maybe the Horde just have more of the hardcore players.
While I still think that both faction differential buffing/scaling of NPCs, and targeting of buffing/scaling to the generals & captains instead of to all NPCs, are bad ideas, I no longer think it's the main cause of the increased imbalance, and especially the increased imbalance since both factions have been trying out more strategies. I'll post regarding that separately.
I agree with Phalanx that AV is in a pretty decent spot right now.
Before patch, we had a ton of honor farmers getting into AV, who didn't want to be there, who wanted the game over as quick as possible regardless of win or loss. These people would just cross the map, stack towers/bunkers, hope to burn all 4, and kill Drek/Van to end it. Now, post-patch, those people are no longer in AV. 100% of both teams are now comprised of people who intentionally queued 40s and want to be there.
Horde are now deploying the strategy I have used since Vanilla to consistently win AV for the Alliance; which is stay grouped up, defend our Captain, backcap everything, and only proceed onto offense once all the enemy are cleared from our team's territory.
SFGY is actually the key to many, if not most, Alliance losses. And this is true for many Horde losses as well. If you're ressing there, the instinct is to go offense, which just feeds into the other team's defense and bleeds your resources and morale out, and also weakens your team's defense, making a successful backcap less likely, since now you're ressing behind enemy lines. You only want SFGY if itâs to the back of your team once you're pushing offense.
The map differences are not what makes or breaks the game, it never has been. The map differences are what make AV unique and call for slightly different strategies depending on which faction youâre playing. Each choke point can be used for you, or against you.
It comes down to strategy, focusing the right objectives at the right times, having sufficient healers, and knowing how to peel and not feed the enemy.
I really appreciate all the care and attention Phalanx is giving to these Epic BGs that we all love so much and stay subbed for.
It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
No. I've been in multiple groups that tried defending. Multiple groups that tried holding, etc.
It. doesn't. matter. The only thing holding/defending does it prolong the fight.
There's no way to push past Iceblood as Alliance. You will lose on reinforcements no matter what.
Now that Horde know that Iceblood is unbreakable if they defend it, it's literally impossible to win as Alliance.
This was a problem before the changes to the battleground, but because it was in the general BG queue, most Horde tried to zerg to make AV go faster. Now that it's separated into Epic BGs, the Horde queueing for it DO want to defend, and thus are highlighting the significant Horde advantage.
There's a reason Horde queue times are nearing an hour, and why Alliance lose every battle now. There's zero chance to win as Alliance now unless you get an entire group of incompetent Horde.
It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
No. I've been in multiple groups that tried defending. Multiple groups that tried holding, etc.
It. doesn't. matter. The only thing holding/defending does it prolong the fight.
There's no way to push past Iceblood as Alliance. You will lose on reinforcements no matter what.
Now that Horde know that Iceblood is unbreakable if they defend it, it's literally impossible to win as Alliance.
This was a problem before the changes to the battleground, but because it was in the general BG queue, most Horde tried to zerg to make AV go faster. Now that it's separated into Epic BGs, the Horde queueing for it DO want to defend, and thus are highlighting the significant Horde advantage.
There's a reason Horde queue times are nearing an hour, and why Alliance lose every battle now. There's zero chance to win as Alliance now unless you get an entire group of incompetent Horde.
Another problem seems to be with the "quality" of the individual players themselves (skill level, DPS output, healer output, knowing what to do, etc), it seems many individual Horde players are the "equivalent" of 1.5-2.0 Alliance players. So say if you have 11 random Horde players fighting 15 random Alliance players, it's still more or less an "even" fight when you factor in individual player skill, DPS numbers, etc. The 11 random Horde players are roughly "equal" to those 15 random Alliance players.
On my Balance druid I've often stood out in front of the Horde front line just free-casting and AOEing like crazy. I notice like 3-4 ranged Alliance DPS players trying to tunnel me down... I also notice they do like no damage lol. They get me down to like 35% health before they run out of steam/cooldowns and I'm healed back up to full by my healers. Alliance DPS output really "tickles" sometimes, it's almost a joke.
But when a group of Horde DPS players decide to tunnel you or focus you, make no mistake - you ARE going down unless you get big heals - no question about it.
This was a problem before the changes to the battleground, but because it was in the general BG queue, most Horde tried to zerg to make AV go faster. Now that it's separated into Epic BGs, the Horde queueing for it DO want to defend, and thus are highlighting the significant Horde advantage.
There's a reason Horde queue times are nearing an hour, and why Alliance lose every battle now. There's zero chance to win as Alliance now unless you get an entire group of incompetent Horde.
Before the changes, it was often possible to zerg Galv and win even if the entire Horde raid was at Galv. Alliance would lose maybe 5 people while downing Galv, but then the 30% captain kill buff would let the remaining 35 Alliance kill all 40 Horde and cap Iceblood graveyard. After that, the reinforcement advantage from killing Galv gave us a good chance of winning.
That doesn't work any more because after the changes, we can't down Galv before we wipe.
I'm starting to appreciate just how difficult it is to balance AV. I like the NPC buff and I like the added reinforcements as independent changes, but then there are interactions with which parts of the map favor which faction that can throw things off. I'm really happy that Blizzard is paying attention to the issue, but it's not an easy issue to solve.
I just witnessed 2 MM hunters push back 15 people. Not because the MM hunters killed everyone, but people were so scared of the initial burst.
That's hilarious! I specced out of barrage because it just drew attention to me and got me killed in world PVP, but maybe I should spec into it for AV.
SFGY is actually the key to many, if not most, Alliance losses. And this is true for many Horde losses as well. If you're ressing there, the instinct is to go offense, which just feeds into the other team's defense and bleeds your resources and morale out, and also weakens your team's defense, making a successful backcap less likely, since now you're ressing behind enemy lines. You only want SFGY if itâs to the back of your team once you're pushing offense.
SFGY is actually the key to many, if not most, Alliance losses. And this is true for many Horde losses as well. If you're ressing there, the instinct is to go offense, which just feeds into the other team's defense and bleeds your resources and morale out, and also weakens your team's defense, making a successful backcap less likely, since now you're ressing behind enemy lines. You only want SFGY if itâs to the back of your team once you're pushing offense.
Luku your response?
Recently, how many games have you seen won without the wining team holding SFGY (before the latest changes both Horde and Alliance often just skipped SF).
As for the IB choke point, like any choke point you at some point just need to zerg it. Push into the IBGY spawn area to cap it. Once Alliance owns IBGY the map is theirs. SFGY is half the distance to IBGY than SHGY so it is much easier for Alliance to zerg from SFGY than it is from SHGY.
The Horde only really needs SF to stop Alliance from spawning there. Alliance now needs SF to take IBT/GY.
One other thing I'd like to note, Horde just completely skips Balinda now (no need to kill her to win so just skip and keep pushing). I think thats one mechanic that could be looked at, something like you get massive honor for killing a sub-boss or you cant kill the boss until either Galv or Bal is down, or maybe towers are much harder to take down if Galv or Bal is still up. Not sure but skipping Bal or Galv seems kind of cheap to me.
If you're going to make them take longer to finish, then they should reward more honor. Time spent really hasn't been at the appropriate values when I could do 2 normal BGs in the same amount of time or even less and get more honor than a single epic BG.
I agree. As long as the rewards are proportional to the time spent in normal bg's, then I will be enjoying epic bg's even more. I don't want to have to skip doing them because of efficiency. Maybe at the end of the match we can get bonus rewards for taking down or defending towers.
I agree with Phalanx that AV is in a pretty decent spot right now.
Before patch, we had a ton of honor farmers getting into AV, who didn't want to be there, who wanted the game over as quick as possible regardless of win or loss. These people would just cross the map, stack towers/bunkers, hope to burn all 4, and kill Drek/Van to end it. Now, post-patch, those people are no longer in AV. 100% of both teams are now comprised of people who intentionally queued 40s and want to be there.
Horde are now deploying the strategy I have used since Vanilla to consistently win AV for the Alliance; which is stay grouped up, defend our Captain, backcap everything, and only proceed onto offense once all the enemy are cleared from our team's territory.
SFGY is actually the key to many, if not most, Alliance losses. And this is true for many Horde losses as well. If you're ressing there, the instinct is to go offense, which just feeds into the other team's defense and bleeds your resources and morale out, and also weakens your team's defense, making a successful backcap less likely, since now you're ressing behind enemy lines. You only want SFGY if itâs to the back of your team once you're pushing offense.
The map differences are not what makes or breaks the game, it never has been. The map differences are what make AV unique and call for slightly different strategies depending on which faction youâre playing. Each choke point can be used for you, or against you.
It comes down to strategy, focusing the right objectives at the right times, having sufficient healers, and knowing how to peel and not feed the enemy.
I really appreciate all the care and attention Phalanx is giving to these Epic BGs that we all love so much and stay subbed for.
Donât you play 30 man premades? The experience of a 30 man premade with discord and leadership will be a very different experience than an alliance pug.
I agree with Phalanx that AV is in a pretty decent spot right now.
Before patch, we had a ton of honor farmers getting into AV, who didn't want to be there, who wanted the game over as quick as possible regardless of win or loss. These people would just cross the map, stack towers/bunkers, hope to burn all 4, and kill Drek/Van to end it. Now, post-patch, those people are no longer in AV. 100% of both teams are now comprised of people who intentionally queued 40s and want to be there.
Horde are now deploying the strategy I have used since Vanilla to consistently win AV for the Alliance; which is stay grouped up, defend our Captain, backcap everything, and only proceed onto offense once all the enemy are cleared from our team's territory.
SFGY is actually the key to many, if not most, Alliance losses. And this is true for many Horde losses as well. If you're ressing there, the instinct is to go offense, which just feeds into the other team's defense and bleeds your resources and morale out, and also weakens your team's defense, making a successful backcap less likely, since now you're ressing behind enemy lines. You only want SFGY if itâs to the back of your team once you're pushing offense.
The map differences are not what makes or breaks the game, it never has been. The map differences are what make AV unique and call for slightly different strategies depending on which faction youâre playing. Each choke point can be used for you, or against you.
It comes down to strategy, focusing the right objectives at the right times, having sufficient healers, and knowing how to peel and not feed the enemy.
I really appreciate all the care and attention Phalanx is giving to these Epic BGs that we all love so much and stay subbed for.
Donât you play 30 man premades? The experience of a 30 man premade with discord and leadership will be a very different experience than an alliance pug.
Heâs talking about the pug groups he and I have been queueing into before the patch and especially after, the number of which has been substantial because we are nerds. There is the in game raid voice chat feature Blizz has added which can be utilized if you wish to coordinate through such means. Iâm sure you could find enough players interested in using it especially against the harder fights.
I'm just a little worried now that since Alliance isn't winning as much and the outcry is getting louder that Blizz might over react and give Alliance an additional advantage somehow. When the BG's first came out Horde was winning, Blizz moved Horde starting point back and they have been the underdog since. (proof just look at someone who has 1000's (or even 100's like myself) of AV games played and see what the percentage of wins are Horde vs Alliance). Out of over 380 AV games played on this toon I (as Horde) have a 40% win ratio, you Krienn with over a 1000 AV games played on that toon have a 87% win ratio with Alliance. Alliance has (on average) been winning AV for a very long time now. Horde is finally feeling good about winning again. Please Blizz don't overreact and lets see if Alliance can figure this out without giving them an advantage.