Here's the deal, when Alliance figures out SF is the KEY to winning, they wont be losing as much. GY's are important. Take a GY burn the towers near it. Peel the Onion.
Here's the deal, When Alliance figures out SF is the KEY to winning, they wont be losing as much. GY's are important. Take a GY burn the towers near it. Peel the Onion.I see what you did there...
Wow, the airship cannon buff is great in IOC.
Don't actually have to do over a dozen runs to do significant damage to a gate.
It feels comparable to siege weapons now in terms of what it can get done.
Don't actually have to do over a dozen runs to do significant damage to a gate.
It feels comparable to siege weapons now in terms of what it can get done.
07/31/2018 08:31 AMPosted by SqueektoyChromey,
What exactly is agnostic honor? Never heard that phrase before.
By victory-agnostic, I mean that winning/losing is not the bulk of your Honor reward.
I personally dislike the culture of "wow everyone's special, everyone's a winner", this isn't based on that kind of mentality. This is simple practicality.
The reward structure sucks in PVP.
- If it's a loss, I'm encouraged to give up and lose faster, because the longer the match goes on, the worse of a time waste it was.
- Regardless of win or lose, I'm encouraged to go derp around in a meat grinder for HKs, not to do objectives.
You can fix the former by reducing/removing the difference in honor gains from winning or losing. In fact, if the net bundle of honor for BG completion is gone entirely, that removes the "[I]Let's finish this BG ASAP[/I]" mentality which leads to mutual zergs and such.
In Epic BGs, I am penalized as a player for not completing matches ASAP and ignoring objectives. Win or lose, it is "better" for me to only commit to the fastest BG completions rather than make an effort to win, especially if behind.
Then you increase Honor and provide small range Honor gains for objectives. Right now, as an example I put out previously, if I go and sit on Tower Point because I want to win AV... and the Horde never tries to retake it. I can spend 5min getting basically no Honor and no Rep. The whole team gets Honor when that sucker burns, except I just spent 5min getting no HKs because I was "doing nothing" aka defending the tower from a recap which may not ever show up.
If I just went and ran into some stupid meat grinder around Stonehearth, I'd not only get the rewards from Tower Point while not contributing to it, I'd also get another 50 or 100 HKs of Honor.
I am penalized as a player for actually doing Battleground objectives under the current reward structure. It is "better" for me to just keep throwing myself at fights and not actually do the objectives of the battleground.
Make sense now why I'm advocating for a reward structure where your Honor gains come from being in range of objectives. "Defend the Payload!" And where winning and losing contribute less to your rewards than participation.
Take a map like Warsong Gulch. If the match is even remotely close, and you ever get 1 flag, you are immediately encouraged to have your entire team turtle with the implied threat that a Rogue or Druid might sneak into the enemy base and take theirs, hard forcing a 9v8 or so most of the time. You're immediately encouraged to STOP TRYING TO WIN and to STOP PLAYING THE MATCH because the reward for losing is SO poor. This is the opposite of the Epic BG problem, but the core cause is the same. As a player in a smaller BG, I am encouraged to immediately stop trying to win as soon as my team gets a small lead, and to turtle as hard as possible, riding a defender's advantage to a narrow win. Why throw away the bulk of my honor gains in a gamble to try to get 3 flags when we can just AFK turtle on 1 flag?
Besides, in Rated PVP where it matters, winning is already how Rating increases and losing is how it falls. In casual PVP, we don't really need to replicate and compound that issue. ENCOURAGE PARTICIPATION BY REWARDING PARTICIPATION!
Ok so put it in summary, The Av match starts with a back and forth ping pong match of horde and alliance on the field of strife. SFGY becomes the GY that dictates who has the advantage of the power struggle in that fight. IBGY is the Pivot Point that wins and loses games. Horde have the 1st map advantage which I'm labelling now as the first strike, what they do is if they happen to get any momentum of pushing alliance to SHGY they then can retreat to SH Bunker and Burn it. After burning Stonehearth Bunker they are now up 75 kills, often doing this with the help of SFGY during the process to lower the loss rate of horde. Alliance by rights should be killing more horde but for some reason they are not during the process.
Alliance also losing the ping pong power struggles cause alot of alliance are running into horde in single line cause they want IBGY so very much, cause alliance are currently losing a lot to the same strategy and something needs to change but are in fact throwing the game as this should be a stealth job if anything. 10 players then leave the match on alliance cause this just feels like part of the same script as before when alliance goes into a 1 hour turtle and loses.
The ping pong starts again between the GY's of SHGY and IBGY. Alliance still want to win but every time we get near IBGY, the 300 style chokepoint just crushes them. The summons hopefully appear by now but with bunch of newish players or whatever the chances are, we don't always get summon. Sometimes horde get the summons first. If either side do not get summons then eventually horde get to SHGY, they can occasionally fail but they tend to get enough push to roll over the GY and take it resulting the beginning of the losing turtle. IW Bunker comes with SHGY making a drawn out fight between SPGY and SHGY. Horde hit Balinda next making Alliance push into SHGY possible and sometimes we gain the node just bairly only to find we just dropped another 100. Horde will either retake SHGY or go back to the ping pong struggle. Another 10 alliance leave the match. Ping Pong effect happens between Stormpike and Stonehearth now but with horde still having galv 20% health buff for 2 minutes. They eventually crush alliance, maybe cause half the team just don't care about winning by now.
Stormpike Graveyard becomes hordes new graveyard, they immediately make sure they got Irondeep mines and just Blockade and wait til the graveyard caps. They then start the advance on DB bridge, supposedly strongest chokepoint on map but I've yet to see it actually feel strong maybe cause the score is we now need to kill 2 horde to 1 alliance or sometimes 3 horde to 1 alliance by now. Or maybe they just blow half the alliance off the bridge and just move in anyway. People just don't care now, archers do help but they just feel useless overall. Horde eventually move in on base take it over and the match is then gg.
Now if we do beat them to the summons race, alot of matches have been lost cause of the feeding alliance and we simply run outta reinforcements before we destroy IBGY and start any kind of advance.
Would like the leader of SI:7 Mathias Shaw or Greymane try to explain basic strategy to this. They could even be talking during the bg, and rogues and druids can hear the extra details of being a stealth etc from shaw. And also have equivalents on horde
Alliance also losing the ping pong power struggles cause alot of alliance are running into horde in single line cause they want IBGY so very much, cause alliance are currently losing a lot to the same strategy and something needs to change but are in fact throwing the game as this should be a stealth job if anything. 10 players then leave the match on alliance cause this just feels like part of the same script as before when alliance goes into a 1 hour turtle and loses.
The ping pong starts again between the GY's of SHGY and IBGY. Alliance still want to win but every time we get near IBGY, the 300 style chokepoint just crushes them. The summons hopefully appear by now but with bunch of newish players or whatever the chances are, we don't always get summon. Sometimes horde get the summons first. If either side do not get summons then eventually horde get to SHGY, they can occasionally fail but they tend to get enough push to roll over the GY and take it resulting the beginning of the losing turtle. IW Bunker comes with SHGY making a drawn out fight between SPGY and SHGY. Horde hit Balinda next making Alliance push into SHGY possible and sometimes we gain the node just bairly only to find we just dropped another 100. Horde will either retake SHGY or go back to the ping pong struggle. Another 10 alliance leave the match. Ping Pong effect happens between Stormpike and Stonehearth now but with horde still having galv 20% health buff for 2 minutes. They eventually crush alliance, maybe cause half the team just don't care about winning by now.
Stormpike Graveyard becomes hordes new graveyard, they immediately make sure they got Irondeep mines and just Blockade and wait til the graveyard caps. They then start the advance on DB bridge, supposedly strongest chokepoint on map but I've yet to see it actually feel strong maybe cause the score is we now need to kill 2 horde to 1 alliance or sometimes 3 horde to 1 alliance by now. Or maybe they just blow half the alliance off the bridge and just move in anyway. People just don't care now, archers do help but they just feel useless overall. Horde eventually move in on base take it over and the match is then gg.
Now if we do beat them to the summons race, alot of matches have been lost cause of the feeding alliance and we simply run outta reinforcements before we destroy IBGY and start any kind of advance.
Would like the leader of SI:7 Mathias Shaw or Greymane try to explain basic strategy to this. They could even be talking during the bg, and rogues and druids can hear the extra details of being a stealth etc from shaw. And also have equivalents on horde
Alright now, I haven't bothered to look to see if it's been mentioned but the stealth popping is really obnoxious. My druid can't come within 15 yards of any NPCs without being popped out of stealth in AV. Is this intended? I don't see rogues having issues? Are druids' stealth just crap now or is this AV only?
(specifically the bowman and NPCs in either mines)
(specifically the bowman and NPCs in either mines)
Seem's like Honor has been drastically reduced per amount of time played in AV and IoC.
The guns on the ship hit players stupid hard lol! We nearly lost our flag to alliance hitting us all on the flag then jumping in. The demo clears the room. Crazy stuff but makes for some fun games.
On a side note, I think it'd be cool if the AV and IOC bosses were updated in regards to hp/dmg every PVP season, so this overall feel is maintained throughout the xpac
What are your game times looking like for IOC now? Prehotfix I was getting around 50-90 mins, which was around AV
07/31/2018 06:58 PMPosted by ZalathelWow, the airship cannon buff is great in IOC.
Don't actually have to do over a dozen runs to do significant damage to a gate.
It feels comparable to siege weapons now in terms of what it can get done.
What are your game times looking like for IOC now? Prehotfix I was getting around 50-90 mins, which was around AV
For the love of god, fix AV. Horde have a 95-99% win rate right now. I did 5 AVs tonight and asked if anyone had won in the last 3 days and not a single person had.
There are 4 "chokepoints" in the game: Stormpike, Stonehearth, Iceblood, and Frostwolf. However, due to how they are actually made in the game, only 2 are actually chokepoints - The Horde ones, surprise surprise.
With Stormpike, there's 2 entrances into it. The back way and the front way. With Stonehearth, there's 3 entrances. Back, side, and front.
Whereas with iceblood, there's one tiny little path which you have to run through a fence to get into it, and Frostwolf is again, a tiny little path that goes through a hole in a fence.
Which means all Horde has to do is camp those 2 fence gates and they can kill any alliance who try to get through.
Alliance have no such luxury, as there's many many ways into our chokepoints, as well as a bridge where Horde can easily run in and thunderstorm, typhoon, etc. and kill half our team at once.
You try turtling on Alliance? Horde break through your defenses eventually because of aforementioned multiple entrances on every. single. location. the alliance has.
You try zerging on Alliance? You don't get past Iceblood if even 1/4th of the Horde team defends it.
There's literally no way to win as Alliance right now unless you're playing against downright stupid Horde.
Alliance have 4 options when the game starts:
Rush Drek - You lose because half of the Horde team is at Galv.
Rush Iceblood - You lose because half of the team is defending their CHOKEPOINT.
Turtle Stonehearth Bunker - You lose because Horde cap Stonehearth Graveyard and from then they just rampage.
Turtle Stonehearth Graveyard - You lose because then Horde get SHB and win from reinforcements.
ALLIANCE HAVE ZERO OPTIONS ON HOW TO WIN ANYMORE.
Don't even get me started on how much easier it is to hold a bunker because of how big and open it is with multiple places to line of sight people than it is to hold a tower because it's literally a tiny little room so every single aoe will hit every single defender.
And as I've said FIX REPUTATION GAINS ON ALTERAC VALLEY I'm tired of coming out of an hour+ long battle with less than 100 rep, despite turning in multiple times armor scraps, crystals, etc.
There are 4 "chokepoints" in the game: Stormpike, Stonehearth, Iceblood, and Frostwolf. However, due to how they are actually made in the game, only 2 are actually chokepoints - The Horde ones, surprise surprise.
With Stormpike, there's 2 entrances into it. The back way and the front way. With Stonehearth, there's 3 entrances. Back, side, and front.
Whereas with iceblood, there's one tiny little path which you have to run through a fence to get into it, and Frostwolf is again, a tiny little path that goes through a hole in a fence.
Which means all Horde has to do is camp those 2 fence gates and they can kill any alliance who try to get through.
Alliance have no such luxury, as there's many many ways into our chokepoints, as well as a bridge where Horde can easily run in and thunderstorm, typhoon, etc. and kill half our team at once.
You try turtling on Alliance? Horde break through your defenses eventually because of aforementioned multiple entrances on every. single. location. the alliance has.
You try zerging on Alliance? You don't get past Iceblood if even 1/4th of the Horde team defends it.
There's literally no way to win as Alliance right now unless you're playing against downright stupid Horde.
Alliance have 4 options when the game starts:
Rush Drek - You lose because half of the Horde team is at Galv.
Rush Iceblood - You lose because half of the team is defending their CHOKEPOINT.
Turtle Stonehearth Bunker - You lose because Horde cap Stonehearth Graveyard and from then they just rampage.
Turtle Stonehearth Graveyard - You lose because then Horde get SHB and win from reinforcements.
ALLIANCE HAVE ZERO OPTIONS ON HOW TO WIN ANYMORE.
Don't even get me started on how much easier it is to hold a bunker because of how big and open it is with multiple places to line of sight people than it is to hold a tower because it's literally a tiny little room so every single aoe will hit every single defender.
And as I've said FIX REPUTATION GAINS ON ALTERAC VALLEY I'm tired of coming out of an hour+ long battle with less than 100 rep, despite turning in multiple times armor scraps, crystals, etc.
07/31/2018 05:33 PMPosted by LukuHere's the deal, when Alliance figures out SF is the KEY to winning, they wont be losing as much. GY's are important. Take a GY burn the towers near it. Peel the Onion.
Krystar!!! You haven't posted yet you jerk but this is your queue lol
The structural setup of the map is fine. Give it some time because I think we Alliance are in shock right now over the spike in losses but it will change. Mark my words. I love the challenge and epic PvP. These changes are awesome and I'm very grateful.
Edit: I just don't want it mirrored. The only changes I would ever approve of would be to make the map larger for more epic potential but I'd want it unique. As long as it's in the ballpark, I don't mind slight imbalance personally.
Edit: I just don't want it mirrored. The only changes I would ever approve of would be to make the map larger for more epic potential but I'd want it unique. As long as it's in the ballpark, I don't mind slight imbalance personally.
There is a bug when doing rams, if you hand in too quickly while ram is running towards you, it doesn't despawn. Forcing you to drop quest for a few mins, wait til it despawns then keep going.
Got into a long IoC last night that was clearly a loss early on but still had so much fun duking it out for 30 mins plus that I didn't even care about winning or not. Once the horde got our gate down we just ended up turtling in our base the whole rest of the game until they eventually pushed into our boss room cleared us out and won but it was still so awesome. Best IoC I've been in in a long time.
I think the changes to epic battlegrounds have moved the larger bgs to a more "epic" scale. Here are some thoughts I had:
I have always loved Alterac valley, before and especially after the recent changes.
The npc's being scaled to the player level is a welcome change. Being able to solo down npcs so easily felt wrong. I would like to see an increase to the mines' reinforcement generation to make them actually useful to capture. The rate they produce reinforcements at the moment makes little impact on the battleground's outcome. The time it takes towers to be destroyed after being captured could be lengthened to allow more time for strategic recapturing and defense of towers.
Isle of conquest is fantastic after the patch changes, I used to dread getting it on a random queue but not anymore.
What I'm really looking forward to is what new epic bgs will be released. I personally am hoping for some of the outdoor pvp zones to be made into epic battlegrounds.
Either way, love epic bgs, thank you and keep it up.
I have always loved Alterac valley, before and especially after the recent changes.
The npc's being scaled to the player level is a welcome change. Being able to solo down npcs so easily felt wrong. I would like to see an increase to the mines' reinforcement generation to make them actually useful to capture. The rate they produce reinforcements at the moment makes little impact on the battleground's outcome. The time it takes towers to be destroyed after being captured could be lengthened to allow more time for strategic recapturing and defense of towers.
Isle of conquest is fantastic after the patch changes, I used to dread getting it on a random queue but not anymore.
What I'm really looking forward to is what new epic bgs will be released. I personally am hoping for some of the outdoor pvp zones to be made into epic battlegrounds.
Either way, love epic bgs, thank you and keep it up.
07/31/2018 11:25 PMPosted by DigeratiWhat are your game times looking like for IOC now? Prehotfix I was getting around 50-90 mins, which was around AV
18-30 min ques, not too bad.
08/01/2018 03:32 AMPosted by MaizouFor the love of god, fix AV. Horde have a 95-99% win rate right now. I did 5 AVs tonight and asked if anyone had won in the last 3 days and not a single person had.
I just don't believe this. Years upon years of mindless strategy that favored Alliance swarming, and now that people are actually paying attention...nobody has figured out anything to counter it Alliance side?
Yes, horde AV in my experience has gone up but still lost a couple from alliance simply being better than our team. Nothing about strategy there.
07/31/2018 11:09 PMPosted by MeykaThe guns on the ship hit players stupid hard lol! We nearly lost our flag to alliance hitting us all on the flag then jumping in. The demo clears the room. Crazy stuff but makes for some fun games.
I play both sides, in IOC is it me or are the guns on the Alliance ship extremely inaccurate when compared to the Horde ship guns. I know about having to lead the target etc. It just seems to me that the Alliance guns just aren't up to par.
08/01/2018 03:32 AMPosted by MaizouFor the love of god, fix AV. Horde have a 95-99% win rate right now. I did 5 AVs tonight and asked if anyone had won in the last 3 days and not a single person had.
I just don't believe this.
It's true, but only because Alliance are playing foolishly atm. They rush to their deaths trying to kill Galv or take IBT instead of defending SHGY/SHB and taking and holding SFGY then pushing forward.
08/01/2018 03:32 AMPosted by MaizouFor the love of god, fix AV. Horde have a 95-99% win rate right now. I did 5 AVs tonight and asked if anyone had won in the last 3 days and not a single person had.
There are 4 "chokepoints" in the game: Stormpike, Stonehearth, Iceblood, and Frostwolf. However, due to how they are actually made in the game, only 2 are actually chokepoints - The Horde ones, surprise surprise.
With Stormpike, there's 2 entrances into it. The back way and the front way. With Stonehearth, there's 3 entrances. Back, side, and front.
Whereas with iceblood, there's one tiny little path which you have to run through a fence to get into it, and Frostwolf is again, a tiny little path that goes through a hole in a fence.
Which means all Horde has to do is camp those 2 fence gates and they can kill any alliance who try to get through.
Alliance have no such luxury, as there's many many ways into our chokepoints, as well as a bridge where Horde can easily run in and thunderstorm, typhoon, etc. and kill half our team at once.
You try turtling on Alliance? Horde break through your defenses eventually because of aforementioned multiple entrances on every. single. location. the alliance has.
You try zerging on Alliance? You don't get past Iceblood if even 1/4th of the Horde team defends it.
There's literally no way to win as Alliance right now unless you're playing against downright stupid Horde.
You have mostly argued for REP and I would stay arguing for that. I have exclusively played AV/IOC and I have seen a steady increase in Alliance wins. We have all discussed problems with chokepoints in this thread and, frankly, the map itself is unlikely to change.
I have seen the Alliance strategy evolving and I have experienced more of those losses that are handed to Alliance. I am realizing the problem is the teams themselves and not the map. If you have a team full of melee against a large Alliance raid of ranged and healers then it is likely to be unfun as melee are nuked from afar and rack up the deaths. It is also that melee often times are unsure how to play AV other than run in and die.
AV has its issues, but its becoming an issue of morale and team composition rather than chokes... I mean, I just witnessed 2 MM hunters push back 15 people. Not because the MM hunters killed everyone, but people were so scared of the initial burst.
08/01/2018 09:14 AMPosted by Luku07/31/2018 11:09 PMPosted by MeykaThe guns on the ship hit players stupid hard lol! We nearly lost our flag to alliance hitting us all on the flag then jumping in. The demo clears the room. Crazy stuff but makes for some fun games.
I play both sides, in IOC is it me or are the guns on the Alliance ship extremely inaccurate when compared to the Horde ship guns. I know about having to lead the target etc. It just seems to me that the Alliance guns just aren't up to par.
I've not been on the guns on either side since the change but they seemed fairly accurate that game. We were kind of spread out around the flag because we saw the pass coming but then we were just bombarded with what seemed very accurate fun fire as several of them dropped on us. Was pretty awesome of them but they still failed at taking the flag. It was a great game, they got our gate down and got the boss to 50% or so before we were able to push them out. Ended up winning an hour or so into it.
*gun fire lol but fun fire is a great auto correct