Feedback: Druids

This thread is dedicated to leaving feedback on Druids in Midnight. Look in this thread and in the Midnight Alpha Development Notes for adjustments and bugfixes made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

Apex Talents

Many Apex Talents are available for playtesting and may be selected using specialization tree points in the final specialization tree node. The current User interface (UI) is temporary for playtesting purposes and will be replaced with a final UI later in development. As with any test cycle, we will be adding more Apex Talents to the test over time and not all will be available with the start of the alpha test.

To help us refine Apex Talents, please consider the following questions as you playtest:

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?
  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out in our Combat for Everyone in Midnight article?
  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?
  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

For feedback regarding the changes on making the combat system more approachable for players of all skill levels, leave your feedback in the Combat Approachability feedback thread.

Thank You

We greatly appreciate all your feedback and are very excited for you to test out all the changes in Midnight!

1 Like

Balance

The design of how you enter and maintain Eclipse is changing in Midnight. We’d like to introduce more gameplay to it. Eclipse before Midnight is so important that you immediately drop everything to refresh it when it ends. There’s no timing or strategy to it, and it can be a struggle during phases with high movement. In Midnight, Lunar Eclipse and Solar Eclipse are an active ability that instantly enters Eclipse for 15 seconds, has a 30 second cooldown, and can be talented to have two charges. The goal is for Balance to prepare for each Eclipse and choose the perfect moment to activate it. Depending on talents and the pacing of a fight or dungeon, you might have an Eclipse up 60-80% of the time. You’ll want to spend your time in Eclipse spending Astral Power and dealing damage, and your time out of Eclipse building resources or refreshing DoTs to prepare for your next Eclipse.* *Balance’s Mastery has been changed so Sunfire and Moonfire no longer increase damage targets take and Waning Twilight has been removed. This allows Balance to start dealing damage faster and improves its strength in split cleave fights. Moonfire and Sunfire’s damage will be tuned to keep them as strong, efficient damage dealing spells, but the damage of your other spells will be less conditional.


Feral

Feral Druid is changing in Midnight to address some important mechanics that are based on information that is hidden to the player. Bleed snapshotting, where the damage a bleed deals is increased for its entire duration, is now applied only by Tiger’s Fury and Prowl. The icons of empowered bleeds change to show they’re strengthened. Bloodtalons has been removed. These changes also aim to reduce the complexity that could go into choosing the best builder to use in the moment, putting more of Ferals’ focus on maintaining bleeds and building and spending combo points. While some abilities like Brutal Slash and Adaptive Swarm have been removed, Feral has gained some new tricks that lean into their flavor as deadly hunting cats. Frantic Frenzy is a multi-target upgrade to Feral Frenzy and Blood Spattered makes them even stronger at taking down a primary target while fighting many enemies.


Guardian

Guardian Druid’s Rage economy is very oversaturated, particularly during cooldowns and in multi-target contexts, resulting in excessive APM and unintuitive resource management. We’re aiming to smooth out Rage income and provide healthier outlets. Additionally, we’re pulling back in areas where survivability feels contingent on having multiple layers of defensives, and improving a smaller set of baseline abilities instead.


Restoration

We are significantly reducing the number of buffs Restoration Druid can apply to allies to make raid frames and target frames easy to parse and always show your important effects. Restoration Druid’s Mastery will also be much more effective per healing over time effect active, as they can now only apply up to 5 heal over time effects to allies. We are also streamlining several cooldowns and actives we felt were redundant with other tools in the kit by either removing them or combining them with other abilities. Finally, we are reducing the amount of maintenance buffs by making targeted changes to Lifebloom talents and offering a way to maintain Efflorescence automatically on your Lifebloom target.

1 Like

How well do the changes meet the goals described?

As for hidden information, those have mostly been removed or better displayed (swarm particularly ones that are in-the-air, progress towards bloodtalons, snapshotting to an extent). 3 things that can be improved:

  1. Whether or not using skull-bash would cause you to charge towards your target or not. On live, your character charges if you are between 6 and 13 yards, though there is no indicator for this.

  2. Pouncing Strikes snapshot for rake isnt differentiated in any way from tigers fury. One idea I’ve seen is to make the icon purple+some sort of fade around the edge if its buffed by stealth. So it would be purple+faded if buffed by stealth not buffed by tf, purple+faded + bleeding if buffed by stealth + tf. Bleeding and red if buffed by tf but not stealth. And its current default icon if neither.

  3. Primal Wrath ability icon is not adjusted to be ‘bleeding’ when tigers fury is up.

Gameplay clarity pain points you’re still experiencing, such as information that’s important to playing the spec well, but is difficult to track.

There are 4 things I’m looking at. The first is Berserk rotation for 2 reasons. 1, having the overcapped combo points be displayed as a buff instead of showing up under combo points in some fashion is very unintuitive. It is fairly common that people are completely unaware of its existence until I or someone else informs them.

The typical route that Feral Druids employed to show these combo points was by changing the color of the first few combo points to be blue-- though this alone isn’t exactly accessibility-friendly since colorblindness does in fact exist-- so maybe like a shimmering effect on the border of those combo points can be included? I’d say either implement that or show 8 combo points while we are in Berserk.

The second point of confusion has to deal with Claw Rampage. Currently, the effect triggers per target hit, which means on live we prefer to spam brutal slash or thrash-- because these hit more than one target-- in order to generate more Ravages: In Midnight this likely means swipe spamming instead. This isn’t very intuitive, since most people would look at applying Rakes as higher priority.

The second concern at the moment has to deal with Chomp. As it stands, with the 30 energy threshold, it can situationally be difficult to dip that low, and cast the spell in time when we do, due to the gcd. Currently on Alpha this spell seems to update its availability on some sort of server-tick, which means even when we are below 30 energy, we cannot always cast the spell. Ordinarily, this would be clear and intuitive (assuming server-tick issue is fixed), however the energy constraint is likely to lead to gameplay where we spam Rake to meet the threshold, since clearcasting makes our shred/swipe casts free, and thus we aren’t dumping energy. The alternative is not much better-- that is, cancelling our clearcasts altogether to meet this threshold. This only gets worse as our haste increases over the expansion.

The third point of possible confusion has to deal with the talent Coiled to Spring. It is unclear to a new player if this means we should be overcapping in order to trigger this effect. Currently on live, it is only worth overcapping if it would trigger Bloodtalons when you need to refresh its buff. Well, that, and during Berserk as druid of the claw as essentially an extra chance to trigger Ravage. There is absolutely no way a new player would think to not overcap all the time. I think this talent should be redesigned to trigger upon reaching 5 combo points (or 8 during berserk if you so desire).

Lastly, Sudden Ambush is consumed by Rake, Shred or Swipe. Logically speaking, if one were to read this, they would think that the crit bonus applies to the full duration of Rake (ie snapshotting the very thing that was being replaced). And as such, intuitively, they would think that Sudden Ambush should be spent on Rake. In practice, rake will virtually always be the wrong spell to cast with Sudden Ambush available. It is possible that it is worth using on low target counts with Double-Clawed Rake talented… though that only makes things more confusing. My proposition? Remove Rake from this buff. Shred VS Swipe is pretty clearcut… usually…

Building characters for different types of content—do you feel you can get the tools you need for dungeons, delves, raids, and PvP?

For raid, not really. I suppose it is likely better than what Feral talents currently offer on live servers. For instance, Hunger for Battle wouldve been pretty nice for Forgeweaver Araz. We would use cooldowns on the first set of adds roughly 30s into the fight and then have a 20% amp to put into the boss. And then we would use cooldowns again on the first set of adds after intermission.

Frantic Frenzy is a bit awkward as it is an aoe-exclusive talent. It provides zero value in single target, which means there needs to be a sizable amount of AoE on the boss fight to justify its selection. That being said, this is a more ‘snap-AoE’ damage, something we have historically been extremely poor at handling.

Blood-Spattered, in theory, provides funnel to the spec-- that being our Single-Target damage increases with the presence of more adds. With current tuning, the cost of using Primal Wrath twice as often as Rip is more damage lost than Blood-Spattered would give. Blood-Spattered also requires a high uptime of additional targets, since its value in single-target is meager, and 10t is very rare in raid-- though this is just a tuning thing. I think reducing the target count where it gains its maximum value would go a long way to making this more accessible in Raid.

These changes do make our cooldowns a bit more flexible in raid however, since we can now choose to have cooldowns every minute, 90s or 2minutes. Though it is a bit unfortunate that we are forced to talent into Berserk: Heart of the Lion. Sure-- on live we almost always selected it anyway, but sometimes it was worth spending the point elsewhere, giving us 3minute cds. (or what would be 2:30 cds now). It would be nice if there was a choice node on Heart of the Lion that did something else.

For M+, the above talents are even better, but I am a bit concerned about where that will leave our single-target damage. On live servers, this was mitigated by the pure strength of Adaptive Swarm and the minor loss in single target that Unbridled represented. The replacement talents confer zero benefit in single target unless the boss has adds are adds are chained into it (to benefit from Hunger for Battle/Blood-Spattered). Some Feral Druids already feel their single-target is lackluster on live– so this will likely need addressing at some point in the alpha-beta cycle.

Another concern ferals have for m+ is the natural desyncing of Tiger’s Fury and Berserk due to downtime between pulls. Since berserk is very strong, it is a common strategy to send tigers fury even when not actively in combat in order to Berserk as soon as its available. Perhaps this is an area that can be explored as a replacement for Panther’s Guile.

other stuff not specifically requested for

  1. Sudden Ambush

So the new version of Sudden Ambush makes our next shred rake or swipe critically strike. These spells are currently pretty weak, and we also gain critical strike from talents-- namely Lycara’s Teachings and Strike for the Heart-- 21% crit by itself. Sudden Ambush would devalue crit even more, whilst also not tuned competitively enough with auto-crit alone. Our crit rate could be converted to something else (ie crit damage). Another alternative is maybe Multi-Strike, as long as it wouldnt affect Rake snapshot.

  1. Focused Frenzy

Pretty cool talent, 30 seconds lines it up with tiger’s fury. This was well received when it was a portion of the tier set bonus back in Amirdrassil. Though it needs to be more than just 15 seconds off. Effectively, this node is half of Feral Frenzy’s value plus whatever little you get from the better alignment. If we assume all the points are similar in value to each other, this means Focused Frenzy will be worse by default.

  1. Apex / Convoke in regards to being able to trigger Unseen Predator

For whatever reason, on alpha, Apex triggers Unseen Predator but Convoke Bites do not. This is inconsistent with how these two spells were treated in regards to benefits in the past. ie: Saber Jaws doesnt apply to either, but Taste for Blood applies to both.

  1. Swipe (and Shred too for that matter)

Swipe is currently very weak, and just received additional nerfs going into Alpha. With the removal of Brutal Slash, the concern is that Rip/Bite are going to be a an excessively large portion of our damage. This isn’t an issue with Rip and Bite, builders in general just need buffed.

  1. Lunar Inspiration

I believe this got overly-hit by the stat squish, as it is doing much less damage relative to the rest of the kit than before.

  1. Icon redundancies

Dreadful Bleeding/Rip/Rip and Tear all have the same icon. (this is even partially corrected by rip and tear stealing Veinripper’s icon for its debuff, funnily enough)

Apex Predator’s Craving and Rampant Ferocity share an icon.

Rip’s ‘bleeding’ effect when it is buffed by Tiger’s Fury looks very similar to Primal Wrath.

Savage Fury shares an icon with Killing Strikes

Ferocious Bite, Taste for Blood and Blood-Spattered all share the same icon.

Raging Fury, Killing instincts and Hunger for Battle share an icon.

Wild Slashes, Claw Rampage and Grievous Wounds share an icon.

Ruthless Aggression and Feral Frenzy share an icon.

Tigers Fury and Carnivorous Instinct share an icon.

Incarn and Ashamane’s share an icon-- Sometimes this can confuse people into thinking they have incarn talented when they actually have Convoke.

Entangling Vortex and Ursol’s Vortex have duplicate icons.

  1. Unseen Predator encourages this cooldown pattern → rake rip feral frenzy bite shred convoke. The Shred is the ‘2nd’ combo point builder after rip in this case. Making it the first doesnt help, because if you Feral Frenzy, then you cant bite and then convoke while fully buffing convoke. Convoke itself cannot trigger Unseen Predator so you can’t rely on that either. This is because Unseen Predator buff only lasts for 5 seconds but convoke lasts for 4. This is weird and unintuitive.

I’m sure there is more to say but wanted to get something down early in the cycle.

29 Likes

Speaking from a pvp point of view here

Did some duels with my friend for fun I think the pruning may have gone a bit too far IMO at least on druid so far. I have heard some stuff from others as well

Anyway going back to druid I am hoping we could get a reverse and bring back renewal it feels super bad without it after messing around with druid in pvp on beta. The HOTW change feels bad too not having double regen but i can live without that but i feel we need renewal back as the survability on boomy in pvp felt kinda bad without it.

otherwise regrowth healing needs some buff its been really awful all of TWW as well too imo but i would rather have renewal back if possible

10 Likes

It appears I’ve forgotten to answer the questions at the top of this thread oops.

  • How gameplay-impacting, exciting, and fantasy forward is your Apex Talent to you?

Main gameplay difference I can see is that we will want to trigger the damage amp from points 2/3 prior to using convoke the spirits. This is usually means convoking right after a combo point builder. This is unintuitive and just bizarre, bumping the duration of the buff by 1 second would mitigate this. I can imagine the damage amp being neat, but otherwise the effects kind of just happen, so maybe moderately exciting? As a Feral Druid I feel like the spec tree talents are generally cooler than the Apex talents are.

Graphically the flickers are very cool though, and reminiscent of Legion Shadow-Thrash. They can be easy to miss though (very much like its name) when there are a lot of mobs due to melee in general being a clutter of effects.

  • Are your Apex Talents and new Hero Talents meeting the approachability goals laid out?

Yes, other than the whole convoking immediately after a builder thing I’ve mentioned. We like to pair our damage with tigers fury already, so these talents naturally lend to what we already do.

  • Are there cases you would consider not selecting your Apex talent?

This just seems tuning-dependent to me. Design wise its fairly target-agnostic. The main concern would be builds where someone would spam Primal Wrath in AoE, but I don’t think that’s a fair concern, since that would just be poor play. While you lose Ferocious Bite casts in AoE due to Primal Wrath being half rips duration, that is made up by talenting Apex Predator’s Craving in AoE scenarios.

  • Does the Apex talent disproportionally favor a particular talent build or Hero Talent tree?

It disproportionally favors Apex Predator’s Craving, as that directly increases the number of ferocious bites you’re casting. Technically it favors all of our energy talents for the same reason. Any talent that amps Rip in any way will also see a notable bump, since the fourth point increases rip damage by a large 30%. That being said, we are losing Adaptive Swarm which amped dots, so that might just be needed to maintain the balance. At the end of the day, I assume the intention is for us to play all 4 apex talents, and thus everything else would be tuned around that assumption.

16 Likes

The Balance Druid theory-crafting community came together to create an in-depth feedback post linked here. We felt it would be better to make a separate thread to keep that conversation focused on Balance Druid feedback instead of flooding this thread which is looking to have specific questions answered. Thanks!

3 Likes