Listening to Yoda say that his testing is showing bear be the lowest dps tank in M+ on PTR is quite depressing. Sure, grain of salt, but the combination or already being a low dps tank, losing damage from talent changes on PTR, and getting the worst combination of damage weapon/trinkets for next patch is really going to hurt.
I hope something changes, but its bear, likely nothing will.
I would love it if we could buff Ursoc’s Fury back to a respectful point for physical guardian druid and maybe remake Pulverize into a choice node that varies between a large single target defensive and a multi-target DR to make it worth taking in M+ while maintaining a large DR for raid scenarios or tank busters when needed.
I really prefer the damage smoothing style and with current tuning, no one runs either of these talents outside of a niche encounter.
Something that works together with the DoTC hero talent tree would be nice for the pulverize talent addition. A straight DR would be nice, but boring. I’m sure some other community members could better realize this idea to an interesting one.
I watched the same video. I’ve also done some test runs on the beta. He’s disturbingly accurate for someone who doesn’t lean into bear. Your choices are basically 4 
tankiness and 1 damage or 1 tankiness and 3 damage. It feels like a lose lose. And fwiw, I’d 1000% give up iron thorns to actually fix the specs damage output.
I just don’t think there’s enough time left to:
Buff UF
Rework Pulverize
Free up 2 more points in the spec tree
Giga buff raze
Begging for this to be applied to PvE.
I would love to be given an afternoon to just remake bear from the ground up. I suggested to the warriors, who are certainly in an unhappy place right now, that a better solution would be Ignore Pain on a CD that allowed them to actually fit in Revenges that didn’t feel like a waste.
I wonder if it wouldn’t be better to move away from Thorns of Iron and put Iron Fur on short CD with 2-3 charges, make it stronger at base, then rework the rest of the tree so that spamming that button (since that seems to be an Off-GCD thing blizz isn’t happy with) is less important and fitting in Razes with our excess rage would be more important.
This would require a huge redesign, but having competing rage dumps that can be spammed where both can give damage feels like a poor design.
https:/ /imgur.com/a/Im7ARW9
We urgently need the tier fixed.
Since the PTR came out the Rdruid tier has been buggy and is always applied 99% of the time to the healer himself.
Even if he doesn’t have any hot applied.
This image was provided by a Dreamgrove player
Example:
We apply Lifebloom, rejuvenation or regrowth on tank and 1 dps.
When the tier is activated, the insurance is applied to the healer, which makes no sense, since the healer has no hot.
Sure there is, and it wouldn’t even be a big patch.
Something like "Become Elunes/Ursocs chosen. You glow with a White/Red aura that does X damage and Interrupt/Stuns an enemy nearby every 1 second for 8 seconds. Would give a good AOE stop or interrupt and a flavor for each hero spec.
Wanna be fancy? Give it a visage, have a large runebear/ursoc form around the PC and making them temporarily become the god/acolyte for a few seconds. (This would obviously never be ready in time)
Ngl, I’ve lost hope. It always feels like whoever is making the design choices for bear is doing it as a second/part time effort. Our tier sets the last few expansions have come in crazy hot, we end up getting our base abilities nerfed, then the tier set does away and we end up spending n number of seasons as the worst tank and then we repeat the cycle.
I have no hope for bears being competitive. It’s my favorite spec and I always feel like I’m trolling by playing it.
I wish they would bring in people who REALLY know the spec and could make a real difference in design choice and overall feel. I remember doing this in the past (MOP) for Warlocks and some other specs and it was honestly fantastic.
SquishVegan has honestly done more for our perception that most of the class design team. He at least proves that bear is viable half the time.
So going back to the Class Talent tree, while yes I’m so ever, ever grateful Moonkin Form is back it essentially turns Balance/Resto spec into an extra Talent point investment or waste.
My example, due to the addition of Moonkin form we have one extra node now on the Right Side of the tree, now this isn’t just an issue for my OCD that it’s not symmetrical 
, but I find it extremely odd and frustrating to an extent that Moonkin Form unlike every other form isn’t just baseline and more so blocks Sunfire from Wildstalker Kittyweavers.
Not me, I enjoy Owlweaving but a friend has spoken to me off his frustration not getting Sunfire anymore.
Don’t get me Wrong Moonkin Form is great returning but it definitely shouldn’t be a Talent option it definitely should be baseline.
Currently as Balance baseline they learn 3 Talents, Starfire, Starsurge and Moonkin Form. Essentially losing a Talent for a should be baseline form.
What should happen is Moonkin Form becomes baseline, the First Node should be Sunfire that extends to the right into Starfire then where Moonkin Form is currently should be Starsurge that extends into the right into Starlight Conduit.
So this then gives Balance Druid automatically Sunfire, Starfire and Starsurge learnt literally the bread and butter abilities automatically learnt.
But then for the other specs wanting to pick up just Sunfire, for example Resto Druids which even Wildstalker has a node Hunt Beneath the Open Skies, easier to get without a further 2 point investment in Starfire and Moonkin Form which are useless for them to get to Sunfire.
I just think the return of Moonkin Form is great and amazing but having it as a talent seems very clunky and not thought out well. Seriously just make Moonkin Form Baseline like every other form in game.
I just keep going through the same stages of denial/grief/whatever you want to call it - every time PTR / Alpha / Beta gets put up.
“Maybe this time they’ll look at us and do something for us!” … “Maybe?” No? Ok.
Random once in a blue moon patch rolls around where they change something and bam we’re meta and not trolling by playing it for all of a patch (maybe if they dont nerf it).
Then its like they realize… oh wait. Tier lists have you at S tier? Or above C? No no. Get back where you belong. NERF.
Ok…well they put out Mage, Hunter, etc class/spec changes on the weekly for new or changed talents weekly - maybe they’ll get us next.
No? Ok.
Like we dont even ask to be meta (honestly I hate it - cause then I rage at FoTP’s that come out of the woodwork).
We just want to be useful/brought up to the same level of some other tanks.
I still stand by my head cannon that they gave up on Bear officially when they made Ursoc a Snackrafice back in Shadowlands. We know it was before that but that was their way of spelling it out for us.
Unless you’re taking the new magic DMG node, won’t cat weavers be skipping Sunfire altogether? Would do 20% less DMG than it currently does on live. Maybe it’s still worth the button press? I don’t know.
I brought up Sunfire Talent placement up for several reasons,
firstly as Wildstalker talent Hunt Beneath the Open Skies adds 10% damage to Sunfire, but in doing so it requires 2 Talent Point investment just to gain the ability if you choose to even try to get Sunfire.
So a Hero spec Talent essentially adds a pointless modifier for the sake of it. Starfire and Moonkin Form would be completely useless and just more so just soaking up talent points.
For Balance and Caster Resto “Owlweaving”,
Balance essentially loses a Talent point due to Moonkin Form for some crazy reason being a Talent rather then baseline and so does Caster Resto.
With making Moonkin Form baseline, As it should be like every other Druid Form, and with the talent swaps I suggested this then firstly gives Balance Druids its 3 core abilities to literally function as a spec, but also makes Sunfire easily accessible by other specs if they choose too.
Starsurge also progressing into Starlight Conduit makes better sense then currently being Sunfire as Starlight Conduit directly enhances Starsurge. Has really nothing to do with Sunfire at all.
Like I said I’m more then grateful Moonkin Form is returning, but making it a Talent is definitely the wrong approach.
Our class tree has greatly improved from how it was but it definitely isn’t perfect, talents definitely need to be shifted around, made baseline and have the option to avoid mandatory but niche situational choices to progress the tree, Soothe/Cyclone is a huge culprit.
They could easily change the hero talent from “Hunt Beneath the Open Skies” to “Rip and Rake damage increased by 10%” instead of “Moonfire and Sunfire damage increased by 10%”.
That way, the Rdruid wouldn’t have to lose much at all.
Very true, and I agree an adjustment to the Wildstalker talent should be adjusted.
Still doesn’t change the fact for Balance Druids you are losing a talent point for having to be a Moonkin. It feels like you are being punished/taxed for wanting to be a Balance Druid losing a talent point essentially for playing the spec.
Regardless of the decision made most definitely Moonkin Form should definitely not be in the class tree, it shouldn’t be a talent choice at all it should be baseline.
Imagine if Feral or Guardian Druids lost a talent point to unlock Cat or Bear Form, Sounds ridiculous doesn’t it.
I believe Moonkin is learned automatically for balance druids. The talent is auto selected and has no cost associated with it.
It is learnt automatically, but it is in place of what could have been for another ability, that’s the issue and your reply further solidifies why it’s an issue that I been trying to explain as yes it basically has a cost associated with it.
Every spec gets 3 abilities/Talents learnt automatically, yet Balance is the only one that actually loses a talent/ability because one of its free auto learnt abilities is used to learn Moonkin Form rather then an actual ability like Sunfire.
Feral learns Rake, Thrash, Rip.
Guardian learns Frenzied Regen, Thrash, Verdant Heart.
Resto learns Rejuvenate, Wild Growth, Imrpoved Nature’s Cure.
Balance learns Starfire, Starsurge and Moonkin Form.
Like I mentioned imagine Feral didn’t get to learn Rip automatically but instead was Cat form and actually had to use a further talent point to learn Rip. Or for Guardians Druids they lost Thrash and in its place was Bear Form.
Sounds unfair right? As all the forms are baseline to the class, but for some reason Balance Druids are paying an ability tax to play their spec?.
Because thats what’s happening with Balance now since Moonkin Form is a talent choice. They are losing an auto learnt ability in replace of learning the Form they have to be to function as a spec, which is ridiculous as Feral and Guardian Druids don’t have this issue.
I tried to explain it in a lot of detail moving Sunfire to be learnt automatically and make Moonkin form baseline as Sunfire for Balance is a core ability for the spec and most definitely should be learnt automatically.
The thing is, many druids are cheering for the return of boomy form.
But forget the fact that by bringing it back, it made boomy druids unhappy about that factor.
That something else could be learned instead.
To be honest, boomy form should be a base form.
It’s nothing special, it’s just like cat form, bear form, etc.
I never understood the need to make it a talent in the first place.
Curious, if you got that point back (say they made Sunfire baseline for Balance as well), what would that net you in the tree that you can’t get with the pt now?
Is it make or break for Balance Druids?
Compared to last ptr patch: Balance looses one talent point in pure single target where they wouldn’t take improved sunfire since baseline sunfire in necessary for their mastery to work and now after boomy form. For the standard build that point could have been nuturing/killing instinct for armor/healing(you can still get one to 2/2 or both too 1/2), hibernate, rejuv, or in the extreme case rake (for stealth stun). No change in keys or aoe.
Its a similar change too resto’s; where we got baseline remove corruption to make it easier for the other specs pathing instead of some healing increase as our new third baseline, even though we weren’t running it in a lot of raid bosses or pvp builds because sometimes there’s just no curses or posion.
Better for the overall class and no ones actually loosing anything from live because we’re all being bumped up to to 3.
Wouldn’t mind them making boomy baseline for everyone though, or trading it with sunfire since it is 50% of their mastery which probably maths out to more than the 10% flat damage from boomy form.