Feedback: Demon Hunters

In this thread, we’ll be testing and talking about Demon Hunters in The War Within. Look here for posts from the development team as adjustments and bugfixes are made throughout the testing period.

Please note that off-topic or inappropriate posts will be strictly removed.

The War Within Beta

All classes’ Hero Talent trees are available for testing. Please keep in mind that this is a Beta environment:

  • There may be UI elements on the talent panel that are placeholder, including things like talent icons, text, or final UI art.
  • Some talents may not be functioning yet, or may be marked as not yet implemented (NYI).
  • Some new spell visuals and audio may still be a work in progress.
  • There are some talents that are not fully tuned yet. This is expected, and we will implement tuning adjustments throughout testing.

The combat design team has two big areas of focus at this time:

  • Finish work on changes to talents, especially wherever Hero Talents still need adjustments.
  • Fix bugs that are blocking testing of new talents.

Working from Feedback

Alpha feedback thus far has been of great benefit to us.

Now that we are entering Beta, our focus on Hero Talent trees is shifting away from reworks and design changes and towards tuning and refining. We want to thank you so much for all the forum posts, videos, and discussions all over the internet. Your feedback and impressions have been invaluable for bringing their identities to life and making them fit into what you love about the classes you play.

We are looking forward to hearing from more of you as you get a chance to try Hero Talents for yourself. We are specifically interested in feedback or impressions on these topics:

  • Hero Talents that you feel are “required” for your spec in a type of content, such as raiding or Mythic+, or that push you towards picking a specific tree. This could be due to damage profile, utility, defensives, or something else.
  • Hero Talent trees that you feel are either too strong or too weak in power level compared to other options.
  • Hero Talents whose functionality is confusing, unclear, or difficult to track during gameplay.
  • Hero Talent choice nodes that you feel could offer more meaningful choices.

Again, Thank You

Feedback throughout the Alpha test was highly impactful on our design of the game, and we look forward to refining every class with you in the Beta. Thank you!

The World of Warcraft Combat Design Team

2 Likes

I know you said you are focused on tuning right now, but I have to share this feedback. The lore vision for these specs are the most uninspired and horrifically boring choices. “Fel-scarred” does NOT sound heroic at all. Aldrachi reaver is a bit better, but still not super interesting to me. I’ll admit other people really like the Aldrachi so I get it, but I do think that it’s stretching the mileage on the scraps of Aldrachi lore from aeons past.

We could have had a spec like “Scion of the Betrayer” or something, mirroring iconic abilities used by Illidan with flames of Azzinoth or … anything else. Druids get to be the CHosen of Elune or follow a Keeper of the Grove, Monks literally get to be the Conduit of the Celestials and Master of Harmony or a SHADO-PAN. And DH gets… Fel-scarred?

What does that even MEAN? It’s not even a good descriptor, it’s very generic and uninteresting (in my opinion.)

Listing some possible alternatives for lore-inspired demon hunter hero specs below:

Scion of the Betrayer: Walk the path of the Betrayer, who gave everything so our world still lives and breathes. By uncovering his ancient and forbidden techniques, you will become the pinnacle of vengeance and rain fel justice upon your foes.

**Could be focused on obtaining greater power for your metamorph, focused on a perma meta form like Illidan, added customizations, etc.

Shade of the Hunter: Through dark spellcraft and forbidden rituals, you have attained supreme command of the Demon Within. Manifest your inner demon as a powerful Shade and you will never fight alone.

**Inspired by the Shade of Akama and by the Twinblades gold traits which caused your inner demon to erupt out of you. Could be focused on augmenting your abilities with your inner demon or creating a permanent Shade of ally that your abilities empower/work alongside.

Vessel of the Endless Legion: Your long hunt will never cease - not so long as demons stalk the material plane. Tearing through demonic flesh time and again and consuming their vile souls for power, you have become a true collector of maddening power. None could predict what fel trick you will call upon next.

**Demon hunters gain power from each demon they slay, this could be a spec focused on adding new demonic powers. In the intro quest, you see the consumption of demon souls/fel tomes adding a variety of powers of note from specific demons. This spec would add new spells/abilities from different demons throughout warcraft history for you to call upon.

These are just a few ideas from off the top of my head - obviously, we’re past that point. I understand gameplay comes first, so if the fel-scarred gameplay is interesting and enjoyable, fine. But we can use the depth of Warcraft lore to make it much more interesting and feel more befitting of a hero spec. It isn’t too late to re-flavor the spec into something dynamic and interesting that makes the player feel awesome.

I’m not expecting any of the specs I said above to be made, or whether they’re possible from a gameplay perspective, or GOOD from a gameplay perspective. My point is simply that there are so many more options for what could be done that draw on what makes playing a demon hunter awesome from a class fantasy/lore/story perspective and I feel like the DH hero specs are a major, major miss in this department.

I really hope it isn’t too late to reflavor at the least the Fel-scarred spec so that it feels more interesting a choice, because right now there is zero reason from a rule of cool/class fantasy perspective to pick it. I was so disappointed when I saw the specs and I hope it’s not too late to get something better.

11 Likes

Demon Hunters Demon Form needs to be longer.
Eyebeam should give you roughly 8 or more seconds at base.
The Metamorphosis ability should be at least 30 secs.
As it is, Demon Hunters don’t feel as awesome as they used to.
Make Demon Hunters awesome again.

6 Likes

The number of souls required to activate the Reaver’s Glaive ability feels disproportionately high compared to the benefits offered by the other side of the talent tree. I fear that Aldrachi will only be used in ST / not ever.

12 Likes

I got slayer and colossus both giving more melee strikes
Wanna make a club

3 Likes

I hope the Fel-Scarred vfx assets are missing, because visually there’s barely anything perceptible on this hero tree, it’s largely passive as a hero tree, and there’s not even new engaging visuals to compensate. The skill icons change for Metamorphosis and that’s about it. It feels really bad.

Both Aldrachi Reaver and Fel-Scarred feel too riddled with passives, no cool visuals or transformations (the glaive toss on Aldrachi is very subtle).

I’ll also say that having to pay a capstone talent for our mastery to not be terrible is not good design. Destruction warlocks also don’t have to pay a talent for their chaosbolts to scale with autocrit features, so why should Demonhunters?

You need to bake AMN and KYE capstones to the class and move Glaive Tempest in their place. We barely get to incorporate new active abilities into our very small active ability kit because so much of our pathing is taken up by AMN and KYE so our mastery and eyebeam aren’t gimped.

Please get rid of momentum/inertia. You got rid of it for Chi Torpedo in Warlords of Draenor for a reason, nobody likes to waste movement skills and forced rotational displacements on small hitbox targets.


By the way, thank you for fixing Inner Demons. It now uses the appropriate matching sex for male night elf demonhunters, whereas before it used a female model in a bug that emerged in Legion, was fixed, and then re-emerged in BFA all the way into DF.


Please find a way to allow us to dragonride in our metamorphosis form just like you allow Dracthyr to soar and now flight form druids as well.

We all want the Illidan fantasy of flying around in our demonic form.

11 Likes

Unfortunately, I need to echo the disappointment. The Hero trees add virtually nothing to the class and have zero visual flair. You’ll be fighting alongside freaking Kael’thas, mounted DK’s and dragons casting triple beams, yet you can’t even tell if your Hero talents are activated. Not even to mention how little they affect the gameplay.

Aldrachi Reaver needs to go back to the drawing board. Trying to collect 6 souls is very frustrating and forces you into a very specific build. Even worse is the payoff isn’t exciting.

The Havoc tier set is simple, but fun and powerful.

Wishlist: Update dead talents, Blind Fury baseline, Meta and more barber shop customization, flight form

20 Likes

This is feedback pertaining to Havoc Demon Hunter Hero Talents.
My experience on Demon Hunter is that it was my main from it’s inception up until S3 Dragonflight, to which I swapped to Rogue in S4 wanting a change of pace. My primary focus in game is PvE content through M+ and Heroic Raiding with minor experience in Mythic Raiding. I am not a theorycrafter so what I have to offer is my general knowledge of the class and it’s interactions with the Hero Specializations. Everything I say here is my thoughts/opinions and should be viewed as such :slight_smile:

Aldrachi Reaper
Repeating a lot of what I’ve seen so far, 6 soul consumptions is ridiculous to even activate your primary ability in the Hero tree. It forces you to take a build that generates more fragments over time, but leaves little room for other playstyles to shine within it’s tree. It’s also an incredibly visually boring specialization where I had to squint to see the major skill the tree had to offer, and I hope the visuals aren’t in their at-launch variants yet.
Problems I see with the tree in general;
-Art of the Glaive being a passive on-consumption ability is dull, becoming a cooldown or builder with a better visual would make the tree more interesting and fragment builds wouldn’t be necessary for the spec to work.
-Reaver’s Glaive giving 20 fury would be awesome if the activation was higher/cd. For now it’s just a dead talent in my eyes.
-Throw Glaive doing more damage is decent.
-Vengeful retreat having 2 casts in a window is great for momentum oriented builds, dead talent for non-momentum.
-Resetting the cooldown of Felblade works fine.
-30% Increased Chaos Strike is fine if activation were more frequent.
-Shattering an additional soul fragment is fine but doesn’t add much to the table since the build to make this work already use enough SF.
-Felblade Ward makes a decent defensive, no complaints.
-Soul fragment healing an additional 15% is wlecome as an additional survivability, no complaints.
-Wounded Quarry doing 0 damage is potentially a bug, but if a feature please reconsider for higher burst windows.
-Hunt Cooldown fine if activation higher.
-Escalation fine, again parroting that activation needs to be higher.
-Chaos strike damage increase very nice.
-Thrill of the Fight amazing in concept, horrible due to the way reaver works.

Closing thoughts on Aldrachi
Mediocre hero talent shoehorning a build that very little of the DPS DH community plays. Very little payoff for executing it right, and overall just a boring specialization all around. Needs lots of improvement, visually and mechanically.

Fel-Scarred Feedback
Starting off, the name is mediocre and doesn’t scream, “Hero”. This is a very passive tree and overall visually underwhelming alongside Aldrachi Reaver. While it’s fun to jump into demon form and get the ball rolling, it just feels like our normal playstyle with some slight changes.
Talents;
-Demonsurge is cool in concept, lame in execution. Just more passive damage with nothing visually unique.
-Chaos Nova slow is great for… something? I don’t see the appeal of it outside of attack slowing for big pulls in M+ or trash pulls in raids.
-Movement speed increase per 10 fury is great overall but will shine nicely for momentum builds to get in and out of the fray more comfortably.
-Focused Hatred is fine.
-Converting 5% of damage to Fire and giving a Fire Damage reduction is a great survivability talent, no complaints.
-Leech increase is fine.
-Burning Blades adds something interesting to the table, just needs some visual integrity.
-Violent Transformation makes Meta a better burst phase. Decent.
-Enduring Torment is a solid damage buff, can’t complain.
-Untethered Fury is just… uninteresting? I don’t find myself struggling with Fury.
-Student of Suffering is fine.
-Flamebound is great for cleave, no complaints.
-Monster Rising is fine.
-Demonic Intensity, glad to see it buffing our burst phase, but overall lacking visually.

Closing thoughts on Fel-scarred
Much better picks overall, and going to be my choice over Aldrachi Reaver. Lacking severely in the visuals department, and not feeling quite heroic. Albeit a background spec, I see the potential if they add more interesting visuals and give it a bit more oomph.

General Closing thoughts
Demon hunter is in a decent spot for Fel-scarred, and Aldrachi is in a horrible spot. I think both talents could shine with more visual integrity and making more of the kit for Aldrachi front-ended instead of back-ended. Overall, I’m left feeling uninspired on demon hunter. Nothing outwardly awful about the class as a whole, but just a whole lot of boring and shoehorning.

Thank you for reading this long post, and here’s to hoping that the specs get some much needed love. For Lord Illidan!

12 Likes

Been loving Fel-Scarred for enhancing what i like about the rotation without changing the gameplay.

Does need a little more visual pop. All of the enhanced abilities should look different/more intense.

edit: Should add. I’ve been using a no-mover build akin to the one from season 2. A throw glaive build seems pointless without the S3 tier set and i wasn’t fond of it anyway.

8 Likes

I really feel we need a Ranged Demon Hunter spec for a 3rd spec. to date Druid is the only class with a tank and a range spec in the game. It’s been 20 years and its still the only one. This Forum post is a perfect example of how to do it and make it fit with the lore.

I do not like Aldrachi Reaver, but then i am not a big fan of throw glaive either. I really only use it for pulling when I tank.

Fel-Scarred is pretty cool, ngl. But I really wish it worked with Demonic, not just meta. That would make the gameplay far more interesting.

3 Likes

i have one feedback right now. delete illuminated sigils or atleast make it only effect offensive sigils like ed and sigil of flames. also make sigil of silence and sigil of chains share a choice node to further reel back our overwhelmingly powerful control.

5 Likes

Havoc/Fel-Scarred Feedback:

  • Blind Fury and Dancing with Fate become 1 point talents.
  • Isolated Prey, Looks Can Kill become baseline.
  • Inner Demon/Restless Hunter move into Looks Can Kill and the other row 8 choices slide over.

If I try to pick up the talents aligned to Fel-Scarred, then I have no points left to pick up any of the movement talents, or really any other utility. Freeing up 3 points in the middle set of talents would give me a bit more choice.

The bottom block talents just have poor layout, mainly due to Inner Demon/Restless Hunter. You’re kind of forced to take it if you want to get both A Fire Inside and Any Means Necessary if you want to focus on the Fel-Scarred stuff. If I want to lean into Eye Beam and go for Shattered Destiny then I can’t also get Ragefire and that feels bad. I don’t want the default choice to be EB just because of poor layout.

For Fel-Scarred and mainly Demonsurge/Demonic Intensity - Demonsurge is worthless without Demonic Intensity, so leveling up it had absolutely no impact other than the health and armor, and who cares about that. There also needs to be some interplay with just baseline Demon Form.

I think both need some kind of rework. I should be procing Demonsurges in normal Demon Form, and then I should have empowered abilities and larger Demonsurges from Meta.

Burning Blades is weird being tied to Throw Glaive. Once we lose the set bonus, nobody is ever going to pick up anything for Throw Glaive, and isn’t Aldrachi supposed to be the glaive spec anyway? It’s also like a worse version of Burning Wounds. It just feels like a lazy talent.

Monster Rising is kind of bleh. Two passives in a row doesn’t feel great, and it isn’t very exciting either way. I would have like to see some kind of interplay here between abilities, ie Blade Dance does something extra against a target with Immo on it or something.

The visuals overall need to be more flashy as well. The empowered abilities are super muted and barely noticeable, especially in combat with a bunch of stuff happening. All these other classes around me have all these new flashy things and I don’t really get any new flashy effects.

Lastly, it’s been 8 years since Legion and we’re still stuck with the same customization options on the elves and nothing for demons. Not to say anything about not getting any more races added. It sucks to be forced into playing the exact same race with no visual updates for 8 years.

4 Likes

Long time havoc player here. The currently playstyle with the hero talents feels so bad to play that I contemplate quitting the game. If they were to make the Amirdrassil 2 set a talent I think it would make the spec actually feel like a well designed spec.

3 Likes

Hello, many of my thoughts echo what has been said in previous posts, so I’ll focus mainly on how I think it’s worth thinking about DH hero specs. Broadly, the way DH plays continues to be fun and dynamic, and with some thematic and mechanical tweaks, it can be quite good in TWW. In summary, I think it would be interesting to borrow a bit more from the Demon Hunters of the past and pull in abilities and concepts from DH bosses and NPCs along with previous set bonuses we’ve come to know to build more into the identity of the class. This has worked wonders for other classes like DK and Mage.

Hero talents

Now, I like how the hero talents attempt to accentuate the duality of the class, with Fel-Scarred focusing more on the Demon and Reaver on the hunter aspects of the class. One is more ‘fast-paced’ and the other is ‘tactical.’ However, I feel this is where the shortcomings start to present themselves: the specs don’t have the same flash and dynamics that some of the other Hero Talents seem to have, and they both feel like they are missing something. Below are some ways I think the specs could be tweaked to emphasize this duality further and build some exciting talents for the class. The examples below are not meant to be exhaustive.

Fel-scarred

I’ll start with Fel-Scarred because this one probably needs less tweaking overall. Unfortunately, it doesn’t do much outside of the base kit. If you like DH, Fel-Scarred is fine, but it doesn’t feel great when these are meant to be Heroic abilities. Specifically, there needs to be more visually exciting aspects applied to the empowered abilities through Demonic Intensity and a few other areas of polish to make it shine and to help players SEE the empowerment. While I don’t think it’s inherently wrong to have hero talents more focused on accentuating what already works, and it does, overall, play quite well, I do think it’s missing some of the excitement it should be generating. Here are some examples:

Lingering Torment: Why not make this a choice node or re-design the ability and take a page out of the boss abilities of Leotheras the Blind instead of just buffing Chaos Strike and Blade Dance? Instead, a ‘Shadow’ of your demon form lingers behind temporarily when meta ends. This Shadow of could function similarly to the DK Dancing Rune Weapon, where it replicates abilities the player uses. It would be interesting if, instead, the shadow casted abilities included some ranged spells (like Chaos Blast or Shadow Bolt volley), providing some additional ranged damage for the DH to plan around for encounters where that would be beneficial.

Demonic Intensity abilities:

  • Sigil of Doom: As something that can only be cast a couple of times during meta, it should do something in addition to improving the damage. I suggest having the sigil also spawn an elemental Flame of Azzinoth, like in the Illidan fight in BT. Have it cast a fel fire blast, adding some additional damage to the dot from the sigil and despawning after the duration of the dot, giving the ability to have some ranged damage potential. This could compensate for situations where the initial target(s) move for whatever reason between the cast of the sigil and its explosion. A name change to Sigil of Azzinoth may help with the themes here; Doom feels more like a warlock spell to me.
  • Abyssal Gaze: In addition to the Eye Beam/Fel Dev, let’s also add a spawn of 1-2 Shadow Demons, again from the Illidan BT fight, that also blasts the target(s) with damage and then crashes into them like in the boss fight. I see this mainly as a straight damage upgrade, but if you do look at the Shadow Demon abilities, they stun as it chases down a target; it could be interesting if a slow could be generated out of Abyssal gaze to help with up-time on Eye Beam, especially in PVP or providing additional kite potential for tanks.
  • Consuming Fire: Should leave a trail of Fel Fire underneath the player’s path. The idea is to synergize with mover havoc builds, the need to constantly move as a tank in M+ but have continued value in ST and standing still. This would be similar to the Felblazed ground ability from the Illysanna Ravencrest fight in Blackrook Hold or, of course, like Illidan in BT.

Aldrachi Reaver

Now, onto Aldrachi Reaver. I’ll be honest: the overall collecting of 6 soul fragments is frustrating and has been stated by other posters, so I won’t get into it too much more. However, I think again that a contributing problem here is the theme. We have some lore on the Aldrachi but haven’t come to know them THAT well. I believe this leads to some barriers in building out what players expect from a DH hero talent tree as recognizable. It is okay to keep something of the Aldrachi as a talent, but I don’t feel there’s enough here to build a hero tree thematically, especially when you see other classes getting recognizable new abilities. Between these two things, that’s what I think is missing here: recognition and flexibility.

Theme (recognition)

  • I suggest that the spec be renamed something like Illidari Reaver or less tied to the Alradchi only in some way. I’m not sure how many players would make the connection between Illidan/DH themes and the Aldrachi unless they played Legion and then read the lore of the Aldrachi artifact.
  • Thrill of the Fight should be renamed Cursed Vision of Sargeras or Vision of the Dark Titan, something along those lines, to call back to Illidan. This is meant to be the final talent in a hero tree; it should be something Demon Hunter-specific. Thrill of the Fight is somewhat DH, but it could apply to any melee. It should fit with the themes of the class. Additionally, when getting what is supposed to be a substantial buff, there should be some visuals to reflect this; I’d love to see some shadows or something surrounding the DH, like Illidan’s Demon Form.
  • Overall, enhanced abilities need some additional love. I would love it if we could again bake some new skills. For example, instead of just increasing the damage of Chaos Strike/Shear, the enhanced version also summons a Parasitic Shadow Demon or applies a Parasitic Wound debuff that can bounce between mobs near each other, providing damage and healing for the DH and echoing the Illidan raid encounters in BC and Legion. Blade Dance/Soul Cleave/Spirit Bomb can be enhanced by launching a Dark Barrage aoe shadow spell like in the BT Illidan encounter, leaving additional dots (possibly compensating for losing the DF Season 3 and 4 set bonus).
  • I would love it if Reaver’s Glaive did something more to Throw Glaive, too; what about it summons a Soul Fragment of Azzinoth, providing a temporary barrier to tanks (Bulwark of Azzinoth) and doing damage for DPS (Chaos Blast and providing a DPS buff)? Thematically, it would be similar to Illidan throwing down his glaives and spawning adds in his encounters. If Throw Glaive is to be the core of this spec, it should be something that feels good to use and provide tangible benefit to the player to plan around.
  • It would be cool to add some talent options that call on Illidari allies, either DHs we know like Kayn/Altruis/Kor’vas/Loramus, etc., or others like the Ashtongue, Naga, or Shivarra.

Gameplay (flexibility)

Using souls and abilities in sequence isn’t bad from a gameplay perspective. Still, I have some concerns and frustration lining this all up with the other CDs DH needs to manage. It doesn’t seem to have the same flexibility. I can’t see why I would pick Aldrachi in most situations and it just feels like as-is, won’t see much use outside of specific conditions. Suggestions:

  • Now, there CAN be some interesting interactions if the talents could be adjusted to allow for the banking of buffs and then use them during burst windows.
  • There really should be a way to control when Reaver’s Glaive is activated.
    • Maybe building the first node in the tree into a usable ability that shatters a special severed soul that enhances certain abilities. When the DH uses the enhanced abilities in sequence, they give the more significant Thrill of the Fight buff.
    • Or it could be something like the old Fodder to the Flame - Spell - World of Warcraft (wowhead.com). Still, instead of randomly spawning, you use an ability to summon a Demon (maybe like Demonic Keystone, to call back to the Sargerite Keystone from Legion). You destroy the demon with Throw Glaive, consume its soul, and provide the enhancements. Once your enhanced abilities are used in sequence, you get the bigger buff; this could couple nicely with some of the previous suggestions to change the name of Thrill of the Fight to Vision of the Dark Titan or similar in that it echoes the way a DH is created in the lore (consume demon heart > see maddening visions).

Conclusion

To close, I want to wrap up by saying these are examples and suggestions that would be interesting to add to the DH class playstyle. I also agree with previous posts that DH needs some cosmetic love. I won’t repeat what’s already been said, but more customization is welcomed and needed to keep the class fresh.

I’m no game designer; I’m just a long-time player who enjoys the DH spec and wants it to reach the heights other classes are gaining in the TWW. Overall, DH continues to be fun to play, but some additions and tweaks are needed to make the class continually exciting in TWW and going forward.

6 Likes

Greetings.

First and foremost, all of my feedback comes as a Havoc Demon Hunter.

I’d like to link to another thread I did on the class forums, since a lot I want to talk about is already written there: https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-about-havoc-for-tww/1862915

After testing in Beta I have extended my feedback to the following:

  • Cycle of Hatred builds feel atrocious to play with Inertia and Essence Break. Everything desyncs constantly. Please, change this way this talent works to at least keep the sync with Essence Break (turn Eye Beam into a 20s CD in a somewhat predictable way).
    Essence Break is in direct pathing with Cycle of Hatred. Cycle of Hatred shouldn’t make the gameplay of a talent that’s directly in front worse.
  • Glaive talents have no purpose at all with nothing propping them up and both hero talents emphasizing the usage of either Chaos Strike (Demonic Appetite, getting more souls for Aldrachi Reaver) or Eye Beam (Cycle of Hatred, more Demonic windows for more Demonsurges for Fel Scarred).

Now, I have more feedback about Aldrachi Reaver, I believe this talent needs a lot of work still.

  • Reaver’s Glaive itself is based on the damage of Throw Glaive. Throw Glaive does no damage, by extension Reaver’s Glaive does no damage either. After testing in dummies for close to five minutes, even in situations with cleave, Reaver’s glaive damage is laughably low. This sounds incredibly wrong to me, this should be the high of the hero talent. This is in part caused by the low damage of TG builds in general, which is something that should be looked at.
  • Most of the talents that affect TG (Soulrend, for example) do not work with Reaver’s Glaive. In fact, I think the only talent that works is Accelerated Glaive. Whether this is a bug or not, I don’t know, but also looks is incredibly antisinergystic.
  • All the damage this tree provides is focused on two things, Reaver’s Mark and Art of the Glaive. All the other nodes (Preemptive Strike, for example) feel like fodder, and serve no purpose.
  • It is extremely worrying that Reaver’s Mark, after the changes to it’s duration, can be close to 100% uptime on a single target. It’s a 30% damage amplification. There’s absolutely nothing that can compete in Single Target with this option in the Fel Scarred tree. In fact, it’s so strong that it trivializes everything that Aldrachi offers to the point that the optimal way of playing is always doing exactly the same thing (RG → BDance → CS).
  • Souls are still an incredibly clunky and wonky resource to play around, and we as Havocs would like to avoid it whenever possible.
  • Openers are insanely clunky in the current iteration. Havoc only has access to 5 souls on pull (Soul Sigils + Sigil of Spite and Sigil of Flame). With how strong Reaver’s Mark is as its current tuning, it feels incredibly bad to start your opener without having it up prior to that.
    Please, give us access to a talent that allows us to have a Reaver’s Glaive on pull, or do something similar like Mage’s Sunfury, and generate a RG passively out of combat.

Fel Scarred in general feels fine, but the friction from cycle still applies to this build if you decide to play Essence Break and Initiative.

I’d finally like to mention that visually speaking both talents still feel undercooked, with nothing impactful happening when the big moments of those trees happen (Reaver’s Glaive and Demonsurge).

Thank you for reading.

2 Likes

Okay, finally got to try Aldrachi Reaver gameplay. It feels… really bad. :confused:

Too many souls needed to reliably use the ability with the 30s timer feeling too short. When it said a pattern of bladework, I was hoping it would feel like a building combo or something, but it’s just two button presses and then squat. Really wish it was a new combo that built on itself like, “reaver glaive → enh chaos strike → enh blade dance → reaver glaive again → enh…”

A combo that rewards successfully executing it by becoming more powerful the longer you keep it going feels like what the text hints at but the mechanics don’t do that at all. Ironically it feels like all momentum completely stops the second you hit blade dance.

Could be cool if we got specific combos that made the abilities grow in power with each successful execution, and then made them mechanically difficult to hit or made the window the hit the combo shorter with every successive combo, reflective of the power of the combo.

3 Likes

Pretty wild you are the only person to mention this imbalanced, oppressive talent so far. Truly boggles the mind why this has not been nerfed yet, granted it seems 3 out of 6 tanks have yet to see any iteration… enough is enough. This needs to be fixed before season 1 of tww.

3 Likes

This post is VERY LONG, I apologize but there’s a lot I had to say

Hello everyone,

for those who don’t know me, I’m VooDoo, a Content Creator focused primarily on Havoc, as well as an active part of the theorycrafting community for the spec. Today i figured i would share some feedback, both personal and that which I’ve gathered and heard from both my own community as well as the DH Discord. This might be a bit of a long post, but it will mostly be focused on the Hero trees and our tier set, although i will list current bugs as well as some general things for the class and spec trees (which do need work).

Fel-Scarred
Starting with Fel-Scarred, as realistically it’s the most “complete” of the two Hero trees. This one works reasonably well for Havoc, and i can see and understand a desire for a simpler Hero tree that already fits and accentuates what Havoc (and Vengeance) are doing with the demon fantasy they play into. It offers bonuses for things you are already doing, while also giving small amps and slight tweaks to rotations in the forms of Student of Suffering and Violent Transformation, which offer buff management to an otherwise passive hero tree (and has synergies within our spec and class trees as well.) However, there are some issues i have with the tree, and that I’ve seen brought up.

*Passivity
Personally, i think a passive tree is great. However, i feel Fel-scarred might go a little TOO far into that direction, as there are currently 4 talents on the tree that, in my opinion, are essentially invisible to normal gameplay (Untethered Fury, Focused Hatred, Enduring Torment, Monster Rising). Of these, it can be argued that Untethered Fury can be felt, since more fury allows for pooling, but in total these nodes are incredibly passive. Focused Hatred, Enduring Torment, and Monster Rising are fully invisible passive damage nodes, and while i recognize that each tree should be able to have passives, i think the tree having 4 very basic passives is maybe a bit much. My issue comes mainly to the two nodes that involve power outside of demon form. While i think this is an interesting way to raise the floor of the “troughs” a burst oriented spec like Fel-Scarred might feel, I can’t help but feel like i was wishing these had some more form of interplay with the rest of my kit, some form of synergy. Maybe stuff done inside of demon form empowers the buff, or the buff starts high and “fades” off as you leave demon form. There are lots of ways to make these more interesting, even if it means adding a more “active” choice against them on a choice node (as a few other trees have, the DH trees only have one throughput choice node, while many other trees have multiple)

*Visuals
The visuals on this tree are just a miss, and this is a theme that will echo for Aldrachi as well, although even more so. There’s just basically nothing, aside from the small green explosions (which are nice, but not sufficient compared to what other specs are getting). The biggest thing for me would be to add some kind of extra visual to the new empowers of Eye Beam, Immolation Aura, and Sigil Of Flame. These abilities get brand new icons, why not slap some extra effects to them as well? There were early datamined things along the lines of “each demonsurge grants you a more demonic appearance” as well, which i think would be great, or even some extra demonic-ness outside of demon form. Anything really would go a long way in making this Hero tree feel, well, Heroic

Aldrachi Reaver
Aldrachi reaver tries to hit on the fantasy of the Aldrachi, a fierce warrior tribe who stood up to Sargeras, using their martial prowess and the souls of their enemies. In this sense, I can see what the tree is going for, and the recent changes have made it better, but many issues remain.

*Souls
Souls as mechanic for havoc just frankly doesnt work very well, as the spec was never really designed to use them to the degree that vengeance does. However, the additions on the tree do smooth out generation in combat to the point where i don’t think this is that large of an issue. Instead, i think collection is an issue. Unlike Vengeance, who have two ways of consuming souls readily available (Soul Cleave and Spirit Bomb), Havoc has none. This is very problematic, as often you generate the soul, and either cannot see it, or it is in some position that is nearly impossible to get to safely. Many times over the weekend while i was testing in both dungeons or dummies, souls would spawn that i would simply have no clue where they are, or no chance to get without either significant risks to my survival or significant uptime loss. That feels Terrible. Adding some form of collecting the souls (my suggestion is on any movement ability, similar to how its implemented currently in our sims, but there are many other ways to do it) would go a long way in increasing the QOL.

*Starting combat drought
The recent change from 3 to 6 soul activation helped smooth the rotation of the tree out, however, it introduced another issue, which is on pull. Currently, we’re exploring taking both soul sigils and Sigil of spite on beta in order to smooth soul generation, which is fine. However, these only generate 5 (if you can find and collect all the souls) of the required 6 souls to get a glaive, meaning we are relying on the RNG aspect of Chaos strike generation to get our first glaive. Once we have our first glaive getting to the next few are fine, since the tree speeds up soul generation, but there is Nothing to help getting into this flow. This feels terrible, as we either have to open without our hero talent tree at all, or we have to delay our opener an unknown amount of time in order to RNG generate another soul. Adding some way of generating one (getting to 3 stacks out of combat, hunt granting one on combat start, etc) would really help this tree feel better.

*Downtime issues
The souls that determine when you get your next reaver’s glaive do not need a duration. This duration doesnt really serve any purpose, other than to punish any group which may pull slowly in m+, or to punish this tree being played on any fight with extended periods of downtime. Either of these things lead to you “falling off the train” of glaive generation, and needing to face the above issue of having no deterministic way of getting back onto it. Not only does this feel bad, but this makes the tree much weaker in a lot of scenarios compared to Fel-Scarred, where i wouldnt want to take it on any fight with random significant downtime, or any dungeon where packs are more spread out.

*Talent Interactions
Frankly put, i was excited to cook a build using the throw glaive talents and this tree, only to find that Reaver’s glaive does not work with half of them (Soulscar and Furious Throws being the biggest culprits) despite being a glaive itself. The glaive’s damage is weak enough as it is, this barrier shouldn’t exist, and further works to kill off the glaive talents, which currently don’t really have a nice or use case for them to be taken.

*Power
Right now, the tree, at least in Single Target, seems balanced around a near 100% uptime 30 % damage amp to a single target. This worries me a bit. While its undeniably powerful, it strikes me as the kind of thing that might be Too powerful, warping talent choices, gearing, and rotation so that we can main this buff as much as possible (Sinful Brand anyone). As it stands, the tree isnt as powerful due to some bugs (outlined below), but this constant uptime seems, on paper, VERY powerful, almost spec warpingly so. Caution should be maintained here, as we dont have sims yet, and there’s been no testing, but when i see something like this it seems so powerful i would not be surprised if it becomes problematic. In dungeons however, i think this tree and fel-scarred are both perfectly competitive, and can see reasons for both to be taken

*Visuals
Visuals for this tree are much more subpar than that of Fel-Scarred, as currently the only visual is the purple glow around the glaive. This does look cool, but its basically impossible to see. Normal glaives are very hard to see currently while in melee, especially if you’re fighting multiple enemies, this glaive does not stand out and is practically as invisible. Aside from that though, there are literally no other visuals. Part of the allure of hero trees is the cool VFX and animations they would add to the spec to sell the fantasy, but at points while playing Reaver, i almost forgot i was playing a hero spec. The glow and new icon for the glaive is a nice touch, but even giving a little visual glow around your character would be cool, and aid in recognition of what’s happening without external tools as well. On that note, i think adding a glow or something to signify Chaos Strike and Blade dance are buffed would help as well, as without a Weakaura to track buffs, its hard to see

Tier Set
Honestly, the tier set is incredibly fun. While it is simple, pushing more blade dances and death sweeps has been a blast, and i would love if this was added as a talent somewhere down the line. One small issue does come in with trail of ruin, where-in if re-applied while duration was remaining, it would simple overwrite the buff, cancelling any remaining damage. It would be a great QoL change to make this function similar to ignite or devouring plague, where the remaining damage was added to the new dot. While you wont delay your blade dances so to let trail of ruin finish ticking before adding a new one, it does feel bad to know you are losing on damage.

Talent Tree
I won’t touch much on the tree right now, as the feedback is aimed at gathering thing’s for the Hero trees, but there are issues with havoc as a spec, despite the touch up we just received. The two main ones i do want to touch on are the glaive talents, and the point usage in trees.

*Glaives
As it stands, without the 2pc from Amirdrassil, glaive’s are just simple dead. Throw glaive as a button is very undertuned, and needing to invest 4 points into it to make it even anywhere close to a usable button feels really bad. This is further piled on with everything in s1 wanting us to use Chaos strike, both through the tier set and both hero trees amping it’s damage, and Chaos strike being needed to generate souls and/or blade dance resets. This pushes the glaive talents to the way side, being significantly weaker than anything we want to be doing, and requiring a lot of point investment to even be worth maybe pressing in some niche scenarios. Something needs to be added, either through an increase in power, or an additional payoff in the tree stronger than soulscar.

*Point Locking
As it stands, our tree just feels very restrictive to path through. Often times when making a tree, it starts out with just grabbing all the 28/29 points each build shares (aside from deciding between mover and no mover, which free’s up 2-3 points but still has the same issues) and then selecting the 1-2 points left over at the end. A big issue with this is the 5 different 2 point nodes we have on the tree (many trees have 0-2), which are there both in order to restrict pathing, and because we frankly just don’t have many nodes. Talent points like Know Your Enemy, Any Means Necessary, and Inertia are just hard locks for the spec in order to be competitive (Inertia less so, but most “strongest” builds require these) which already takes up 4 points in the bottom part of the tree (not counting points to path to them) further restricting point selection. On top of that, a lot of the nodes in the tree don’t really build on each other, there’s no empowering of abilities, no way to really dive into build options like you find on other trees (aside from glaives, movement, and immolation aura). This leaves many builds feeling “samey” or being forced to take talents that have anti synergy (Cycle of hatred causing eye beam to desynch from Essence Break, even though it leads into it) and just feel bad to play. This further restricts build choice and leaves us with only really 1 of 2 builds that end up being on top (Not counting no mover, which has been stated to be intended to be a less competitive but simpler option) with only 1 or 2 talent points changed between them. That is not fun, and leaves the spec feeling very similar patch to patch (War within DH is feeling very similar to s3 DF DH). While the spec IS fun, a little something different each patch would go a long way.

While there’s more i could get into, im going to round off this (long, sorry) post with a bug list.

*Thrill of the Fight is an Attack Power normalized auto swing speed buff, causing our attack power to lower as our Auto Speed increases to keep the total damage done of Auto attacks the same. This leads the node itself to cause us to deal LESS damage with it selected, and it’s currently better to either not take the node, or macro a cancel aura for the buff into every single ability

*The 4% pvp nerf done to havoc on June 4th was erroneously applied to PvE as well, and is active on the War Within beta.

*Isolated Prey does not currently give the 30% benefit to eyebeam when striking a singular target (and hasn’t since sometime during S3 of Dragonflight)

*The Hunt and Sigil of Suffering are listed as chaos damage, but do not gain mastery benefit from Havoc unless Any Means Necessary is talented

*Empowered Sigil of Flame from Fel-Scarred only applies the 30% extra damage to the initial hit, the dot remains the same as normal Sigil Of Flame

*Incisive Blade is only applying a 30% damage increase to the main hand hit of Chaos Strike, none the the off-hand

*Warblade’s hunger is not implemented

*Inertia trigger has no duration, can happen anytime after UBC drops (even after death)

*Momentum does not drop on talent change, can be stacked prepull and then remains when swapped to inertia

I’m predominantly a Havoc player, but a list of Vengeance Bugs has also been compiled by the theorycrafting community for that spec, which i’ll copy paste here:

*Warblade’s Hunger is not working

*Fel Desolation does not share a cooldown with Fel Devastation

*Fel Desolation does not benefit from CDR from Darkglare Boon, but does give Fury refund

*Soul Furnace last Soul Fragment to trigger damage amp counts as first stack towards new damage amp

*Fracture is not applying Reaver’s Mark after Reaver’s Glaive

*Shear is not applying Reaver’s Mark after Reaver’s Glaive and not consuming Rending Strike

*Incisive Blade is not applying a 30% damage increase to Soul Cleave

*Burning Blades is dealing slightly more damage than intended; intended is 10%, we’re seeing 11-12% instead

*Burning Blades damage is not allow-listed by Fiery Demise, and thus not increased by 40%

Sorry for the MASSIVE wall of text, but I’m incredibly passionate about this spec, and want it to do well and feel well. There’s many points of feedback here, because to many, Havoc has felt neglected since the Hero Tree reveals (DH is one of only 2 classes besides Shaman to recieve no Class or Spec changes, since Hunter’s is on their way).

Both trees have promise, and with some changes and some improved visuals, could be super fun pillars to build the spec on moving forward into the World Soul Saga.

Thank you all who read through this.

Peace,

-VooDoo :frog:

13 Likes

do keep in mind that every veng tcer and other havoc players are testing the hero trees and the spec in depth before writing feedback posts. hence why mine is short as well. also lets not fill the feedback thread with comment like these, if you agree with a post its betetr to just favorite the post and move along :3

Why does Aldrachi Reaver have a talent that just affects The Hunt?

Why not also have additional effects for the other capstones?