2h hasnt been back that long 
so talking about 2h during times when you just couldnt use 2h is pointless
You can think it’s pointless, but I’m explaining why you will keep seeing those posts that are vehement about breath of sindragosa. And they will remain that way until they have peace of mind that 2H is here to stay as the standard build for frost DK’s and not some “no mover beginner DH” style “you can take it for a 5-10% loss, but no big deal even though it is”.
8 Likes
Except it wont be the standard build. Itd be an option. Now youre talking about just deleting dw… which frost has histroicaly been majority of the time
Arthas larpers just wanna remove playstyles so they can pretend to be arthas
Kek
2 Likes
Deleting DW is the correct answer as the 2h crowd will never stop wanting it (slightly rightfully so something something arthas LARPing). A sizeable portion of the classes issues and future tuning would be solved by simply deleting DW (or 2h but never going to happen as seen by the feedback in this forum from the zealots…) as a usable weapon type for fdks. No more considering attack speed, rune forges, obliterate modifiers… offhand hits…
If i gotta swing around a 2h sword for the class to resemble something cohesive so be it. That’s a sacrifice I’m willing to take. plus its easier to gear from M+ spam week1 getting a single 2hander vs 2 1handers.
I do not care about animations, the look, the lore, anything. I just want to press my buttons in a way that is fun and competitve. Currently, this aint it. and seeing as how we have about 10 resets before release and design usually stops changing right about now… Hate to say it but unless there changes this week or the next we’re locked in until a mid expac rework or 12.0 rework.
Give us a raid buff
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It’s a DW spec so no. Besides, FDK is a very small minority with an even smaller minority that wanted 2h. And weapon types aren’t even remotely close to the actual problem with the spec right now.
If the worst players want to come to the forums and spam that 2h isn’t viable and Breath receives all the attention when 2h Obliteration has resulted in 4 years of direct changes to the spec to support it and when 2h Obliteration has been competitive to Breath for basically all of DF, let them.
The game shouldn’t be designed around the worst players, players that just lie at every corner, and/or players that just want to complain and ignore the facts.
I love how its always “DeLeTe Dw” or “dElEtE bReAtH” with these kind of people
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Agree
The “worst” players are unfortunately the majority of players as most players in the game are not the ones doing “respectable” mythic raiding, “respectable” levels of pvp, doing “respectable” keys.
Summed up the 2h crowd succinctly here.
Hard disagree here. We as frost dks get BARELY any dev time compared to the golden classes/specs. Hell even in recent memory (could be wrong) unholy has gotten more attention than frost. With this reduced dev time half the time the changes come in they’re outright buffing heavily infavor either DW or 2h. We are DW fdks or 2h fdks instead of just fdks. I want buffs/changes to buff/change FDK not buff/change DW fdk or 2h fdk. This is the issue.
WW monk uses 2h and 1h depending on current avail gear or special weapon effects and they do not play DIFFERENTLY at all. There is no modifier for WW using 2handers to make up for losing an enchant. The gameplay is the same. WW monks are WW monks not 2h WW monks or DW WW monks.
Blizzard could never balance DW vs 2h before legion when fdk became dw for 2xpacs and then they decided to ruin the spec and try again in SL alpha/beta adding back 2h wasting limited dev time trying to get it to work.
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Forget the 2h vs dual wield conversations - we need to unite until they change DnD cleaving strikes, and then figure out how each one should play after.
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We need to unite and delete ret paladin from the game! /s
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Frost DK PVE Feedback
June 18th Build
Frost DK has not seen much love in the beta and still has many issues that need to be addressed. I think the biggest issue with frost right now is that whoever is designing it never asked themself “is this actually fun?” Look at a spec like Ret which is super simple, but fun and rewarding. Frost in no way feels the same.
Frostscythe, Arctic assault and Shattered Frost are great new talents but it doesn’t fix Frost’s biggest issue.
Problem: Cleaving Strikes
Cleaving Strikes needs to go.
The feedback given on this talent, even with the changes is overwhelmingly negative.
Ask yourself “Is cleaving strikes a fun or engaging way to aoe for frost?” The answer is no and you can see this by the countless forum threads, comments and discord posts begging for its removal for Frost. It works fine for Blood and Unholy. Blood gets easy resets plus gets to choose where the mobs are tanked. Unholy, this is not their main source of AOE. Having to press dnd in your pillar window feels terrible, it doesnt even proc KM.
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Fix 1: Have Howling blast, our most iconic spell, return as our main source of aoe. This would mean we are not punished by movement. It would need its damage buffed baseline. It could also benfit from KM procs and cost 2 runes. So in ST you press obliterate and in AOE you press HB. Rime could still exisit as a juiced free proc.
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Fix 2: Have Pillar of Frost proc the dnd effect for its durration. I feel like this is way less engaging though as currently for aoe the only change you make is pressing dnd in your pillar window. At least 2h gets GA for aoe, dw frost will not.
Problem: Breath of Sindragosa
This is a talent players either love or hate.
What I think needs to be looked at is why do some players hate it?
I think going back to a shorter BFA style breath is a good fix. However I feel like there is still a lot that needs to be adjusted.
- Fix: Turn breath into a 1 minute CD. Give breath a a stacking RP increase. This means the start of your breath will feel quite easy to keep up, but get more challenging near the end. This will also allow the ability to be tuned properly. Breath always finds a way to be the best build. I also feel like during breath the range of our obliterate should get increased. Also, empower rune weapon should be changed to give 2 charges.
With these changes you will have breath up for more packs in M+, you wont have it drop off quick if your a new player and have bad rng, you will have empower rune weapon for every breath and with the added obliterate range you wont have the very tilting " low on rp during mid breath, go to obliterate, monk tank rolls halfway across the room, obliterate out of range and breath drops" or "get random mechanic I need to run out with and drop, RIP breath, just going to play unholy the rest of the night.
Problem: Shattered Frost vs Rime
Right now pressing rime feels bad when playing with Shattered Frost, especially with the recent change to obliteration and frost strike. You basically don’t press rime ever as you want to be frost striking the 5 stack which is every other gcd which is weaved with obliterate.
- Fix: Add an extra function to Shattered Frost. When the Target is at 5 stacks of Razorrice, Rime will instead trigger shattering blade scaled off “x” amount of your howling blast damage.
Below is a list of smaller changes that can easily be fixed.
- Rider of the apocalypse requires absolute zero, but has no way to take that and shattered frost
- Froscythe can feel clunky consuming 2 runes with death bringer, maybe look at having it cost 1 rune or RP? Or maybe it costs no resources like wake of ashes.
- Soul reaper feels bad on frost. I think replacing Cold heart with it in the tree would feel significantly better and more on theme.
- Icey Talons would feel a lot better if it had a longer duration. It can easily drop between packs of mobs or when running out with a debuff
- Abomination limb should be a choice node with gorfiends grasp.
- Purgatory should come back for Frost and Unholy.
- Insidious chill is now pathable which is nice, but dk still doesn’t bring any meaningful buff. Grips are very situational and amz is tuned very low. Nobody is going to bring a dk to M+ over a ret that has 2 amazing raid buffs and insane utility. Give frost a wind fury totem?
- Remorseless winter has 4 different nodes buffing its damage and it feels quite passive. Gathering storm has been the go to pick since remorseless winter was added in legion. Maybe change some of the talents to be fun and interesting.
Presences feel like they need to make a return as well.
It’s an iconic part of DK.
- Blood: Increases healing received and armor by “x” amount
- Frost: Reduces GCD of abilities by .5 seconds (play frost dk for 10 minutes in cata classic, it feels so much smoother with the lower gcd)
- Unholy: Increases pet and disease damage by “x” amount
A lot of Frost DK players switched to Ret in Dragonflight due to the lack of changes.
Please don’t let us go into TWW with so many unresolved issues.
The goal should be to make Frost as fun as possible, which isn’t what we are seeing currently.
10 Likes
Although Unholy isn’t affected as much a frost by cleaving strikes, gameplay wise it still feels pretty miserable.
The only spec in indifferent about is blood, where it feels ok due to being the tank, having procs, and substantially better rune economy.
9 Likes
Hello there!
My perspective: mained or main alted a DK since WOTLK
The frost strike change is INCREDIBLE. Having tried each version of the tree on beta, it is genuinely crazy that after weeks of many notes, things felt OK, but not incredible - and this one line of text made the spec suddenly feel awesome.
There are three implications I’d like to highlight: if you’re going DW oblit, you feel like you need all 3 ‘inexpensive’ capstones, which means:
** You cannot both get all 3 capstones for DW oblit and get the CDR for you dragon, which feels ‘mandatory’ if you’re going rider of the apocalypse
** If you sacrifice the last frost strike capstonee (shattered frost) - which you wouldn’t want to in AOE, but it’s not super well tuned right now - you can get the dragon CDR. That said, in order to do this you need to drop gathering storm, which completely kneecaps your aoe.
** No glacial assault if youre going DW oblit without sacrificing shattering frost (and GA doesn’t work with the Oblit change anyways)
I might look at adjusting positioning and adding GA to oblit buff to address the above. In paticular, I might consider making enduring strength vs frostwhelp’s aid a choice node. Right now it feels like we constantly have big amps to our power (often overlapping, as ES can overlap the next pillar), and it’s going to create a strange ‘never bursting’ feeling despite having ‘big’ cds.
2 Likes
Hello Designers, I’m glad to see your changes to Unholy DK, DK players in China are very excited about this return to WOW.
Today I’m focusing on Hero Talents and Unholy DK feedback.
San’layn’s feedback:
First up is The Blood is Life, we can see that you guys have made a lot of changes on how to control the damage dealt by Blood Beast, after our rigorous testing and calculations, now The Blood is Life will deal full damage to the primary target, and lower damage to the secondary targets, which is equivalent to 1/√n damage to all secondary targets when hitting the total target number of n. This means that when The Blood is Life hits 3 targets, it deals 100% damage to the primary target and 57% damage to the secondary target, and when it hits 4 targets, it deals 100% damage to the primary target and 50% damage to the secondary target.
We don’t have a problem with giving The Blood is Life diminishing damage, after all, as to be balanced, but you shouldn’t have redesigned Pact of the San’layn, where the original 50% Shadow damage accumulated by Pact of the San’layn would have been directly used as a Blood Beast unleashes The Blood is Life, but now 50% of Pact of the San’layn’s accumulated Shadow damage is counted as part of the Blood Beast’s own accumulated damage, and therefore has to be shaved down by 75% to be counted as 25% of The Blood is Life’s additional damage; that is to say, the Pact of the San’layn’s accumulated Shadow damage has to be shaved down by 25% to be counted as The Blood is Life’s additional damage. Blood is Life’s additional damage; that is to say, if I deal a million Shadow damage during the duration of Blood Beast, 500,000 of that Shadow damage will be accumulated in Blood Beast according to the effect of Pact of the San’layn, and according to the effect of Blood Beast itself, The According to the effect of Blood Beast, The Blood is Life will deal 25% of the cumulative damage of Blood Beast, which means that The Blood is Life can only deal 125,000 Shadow damage.
This cumulative damage calculation is very unreasonable, why would you nerf The Blood is Life again for cumulative damage when you’ve already designed it with a subtarget decrement?
Blood Beast is a passive trigger skill, which is already limited in its use, and now you have to limit its damage, which is unreasonable. I hope that you can change the restriction of decreasing damage of Blood Beast’s sub-targets, or change the unreasonable problem of Blood Beast’s cumulative damage.
If you feel that Blood Beast’s damage may be affecting the balance, you can also rework Blood Beast to make it a permanent minion that will continue to accumulate Shadow Damage dealt by DK in battle, and when it reaches a certain level, it will blow itself up to be shared among all surrounding targets or deal continuous damage to all surrounding targets until it exhausts the accumulated Shadow Damage. When the damage reaches a certain level, it will blow itself up and share the damage among all the surrounding targets or deal continuous damage to all the surrounding targets until the accumulated Shadow damage is exhausted.
For Infliction of Sorrow’s change this time, we can understand, because Infliction of Sorrow’s power does bring imbalance, but my idea is that this nerf for Infliction of Sorrow is too much, we can totally adjust 200% to 150% instead of 100%. It doesn’t make sense to tweak a talent by more than 50% every time, because Unholy DK’s Infliction of Sorrow is no longer able to link Blood Plague, which is already a big nerf since Blood Plague makes up almost a quarter of Infliction of Sorrow. So we just need to adjust Infliction of Sorrow from 200% to 175% to balance things out.
Feedback from Rider of the Apocalypse:
The first reason is that Rider is not as beneficial to Unholy DK as Frost DK, the first reason is the trigger rate of Rider’s Champion, consuming Rune triggers will very much affect the use of Rune and Runic Power conversions, especially since A Feast of Souls is limited to only increasing the damage dealt by skills that consume Runic Power. Especially since A Feast of Souls is limited to only increasing the damage dealt by skills that consume Runic Power, if I only summon one Rider for 6 Runes, I will need to spend a lot of Runic Powe to restore Rune and summon another Rider to fulfill the conditions of A Feast of Souls. Furthermore, when attacking a large number of targets, Unholy DK needs to prioritize spending a large amount of Runic Powe to release Epidemic, which doesn’t leave time to spend Rune to summon a Rider, so I’d like to see Rider’s Champion’s trigger modified so that every time it enters a battle, it summons a Rider, and then every 6.5 seconds after that, it summons a Rider. Then every 6.5 seconds another Rider will be summoned automatically, and so on, or all the damage done by DK will have a chance to summon a Rider.
Secondly, the damage gain between each Rider is different, resulting in the random summoning of Rider is very unsuitable for the current combat environment, for example, now the highest percentage of damage from automatic attacks is Mograine, the lowest percentage is Whitemane, the difference between these two Rider is almost nearly twice as much, especially the special skills they come with: the ability to move the Death and Decay and Undeath’s benefits are not in the same league at all, and Undeath’s percentage is so low that it can’t even link Ebon Fever, Plaguebringer, Hungering Thirst, or Morbidity.
What I’d like is to be able to balance the damage gain between each Rider, and one idea I have is could we have each Rider have all the abilities of the other Riders? That way whichever Rider I summon won’t affect my next move.
In response to Fury of the Horsemen, can we redo this talent skill? It’s unreasonable that I need to spend 250 Runic Power to extend the Rider duration by just 5 seconds, it’s a very difficult thing to do and the payoff when it’s done is very low.
Trollbane’s Icy Fury Talent doesn’t work on bosses, which results in me having one less damage skill when facing a boss, hopefully this bug will be fixed in time.
Commander of the Dead doesn’t work on Rider’s Champion, I believe this is also a bug, hopefully this will be fixed soon.
Feedback from Unholy DK:
In response to Decomposition, there’s not really much to say, it’s nice to be able to link to Plague, but the trigger rate is so low that it’s only a measly 2% of the percentage after tapping a full tier 2, which makes it not even an option when compared to skills of the same tier. I’m wondering if I can tie the trigger rate to Fatal Strike, increasing the trigger rate based on how high the Fatal Strike is, and also removing the cap that extends it for a maximum of 3 seconds.
In response to Raise Abomination, the main issues are that it moves too slowly, doesn’t take commands from the DK, does too little damage, and can’t unleash the Ruptured Viscera.I remember that the early Unholy DK PVP in 8.0 Battle for Azeroth could change Army of the Dead into summoning a skeleton made up of a multitude of Ghouls to summon a Skeleton Giant, a very cool design at first glance, and it would be very cool to see it return.
The last thing I’d like to say is that Sudden Doom no longer causes Epidemic to detonate Festering Wound, if the designers are sure they want to do this then please return Sudden Doom causing Epidemic to no longer consume Runic Power as Sudden Doom now only has Sudden Doom now only has a guaranteed killing blow on Epidemic. This is because Sudden Doom reduces Epidemic’s Runic Power consumption by 10, which in itself is a quid pro quo for being able to detonate Festering Wound. You can’t just do the quid pro quo and then violate the law by taking away what was given to us, that’s banditry ！！！！！！
And why should Sudden Doom stop Epidemic from setting off Festering Wound? Epidemic setting off Festering Wound doesn’t affect balance, it’s your thievery that really affects balance ！！！！！！
7 Likes
this is poetry
9 Likes
I would ONLY agree that Chill Streak is bad because it doesnt inherently and innately provide a bonus which js why I stipulated that the ONLY way that Chill Streak is good is if the set bonus from Season 3 Amirdrassil made it into a talent or a passive of some sort where the bounces gave us 20% damage AND reduced the cooldown on major skills. That set alone l, with a good player, turned into a constant buff that slammed in M+ and in raid and it put me even above most classes that should have been beating me. If that set bo us doesnt go in, toss Chill Streak.
1 Like
Stop, I can only get so erect. 100% agree with this.
7 Likes
Which FS change are you referring to? The pillar of frost change? Maybe FS feels good in pillar but overall it’s still a huge issue that all your damage if concentrated within the pillar window
1 Like
Cleaving strikes & frostscythe idea -
change the frostscythe talent to:
While standing in your death and decay, obliterate becomes Frostscythe, and Frostscythe can be cast at range. (Insert existing frostscythe functionality here).
This would remove the need for yet another aoe spell (scythe), would fit well into our rotation, allow tuning without messing with obliterate, and add much needed forgiveness to cleaving strikes, similar to clawing shadows from unholy.
Also would be nice to maybe have cleaving strikes turn DnD into something more “frost”ey to have it all make more sense thematically.
Also maybe this would allow us to remove glacial advance from obliterate, which currently feels like such a random thing.
Perspective of this post is from a DPS DK player
Big thank you for the change to unholy blight. It really was the biggest offender in just too many buttons for the spec.
Class Tree
Cleaving Strikes
The changes made to the ability this Alpha/Beta are definitely appreciated though I feel there is still more to do. I recognized that the Devs want us to have to hit Death & Decay, and there is the desire to have us want to stand in that ground effect to feel more powerful/deal more damage. I think we should accomplish this in another way.
- When DK hits Death and Decay, they get a buff for the duration of the spell (up from the 4 second grace period). That way if a tank decides to kite mobs out of our effect we are not unfairly punished for something outside of our control.
- To encourage DK’s to want to stand in our Death & Decay, make it a significant damage gain. Similar to the change to defile, make it worth while damage wise to have that AOE damage button down. That will also make it feel far more impactful of a button.
- For Unholy we have Pestilence which is rarely picked that can be baked into Death & Decay, or redesign the talent to operate how people assume it does…let the talent apply wounds to all targets in the D&D/Defile.
- For Frost allow it to tick the damage from Everfrost up faster.
Raid Utility Aka Targeted Death’s Advance
While grips are useful for usually one fight out of a whole raid, usually that is accomplished by the Blood DK. Blood DK’s have more grips, and a lower CD on grip. I understand you are hesitant to add more raid buffs, but I believe Raid Utility, especially for DPS DK’s can go a long way.
- A choice node with March of Darkness (Only on the DPS DK) that will allow those in our party (or a targeted player similar to Ret Paly Freedom) to benefit from the DK’s use of Death Advance. This is a unique utility that would be useful for on more fights and would warrant including a DPS DK in the raid.
Unholy Spec Tree
Unholy Aura
The Distance on the aura needs to be increased significantly. There will be bosses in the coming raid that we will not be able to benefit from this talent unless we stand in one specific spot based on how it determines the boss’s hitbox. Can we just increase this to 40 years to avoid having it be not working boss to boss.
AOE M+ Ramp time on Tyrannical Week
While the change to Unholy Blight is great, our ramp time in AOE in M+ still feels very long. Often on Tyrannical week trash dies too fast except in the highest of keys that prevents us from doing damage before the mobs are dead.
- Vile Contagion: Set a minimum number of wounds it will spread as to eliminate one of the initial festering strikes from the ramp. This will also allow us to ramp quickly if we want to get to our burst faster.
Frost Spec Tree
Specifically will be talking about Obliteration build
Icecap
This talent still needs to be dealt with. Having any type of downtime with this spec just feels you are punished more than any other class. While having the bad luck and planning your cool downs to avoid them occurring during mechanic should be a skill expression, Icecap makes that happen an entire fight. You are punished for any downtime as you lose further uses of Pillar exponentially throughout a fight.
- Change Icecap to change the CD of Pillar to 45 seconds… or increase the CD to 1.5mins but double the bonuses Something we can plan our CD’s around especially during boss fights.
Thanks and Thank you for the great work youve put into the class this Beta cycle!
1 Like
I only get Heart Strike to change to Vamp Strike while Vamp Blood is up. I tested on a Target Dummy for 10 min and never got a proc outside of Vamp Blood.
1 Like