Agreed. Though 25% only seems a little weak now.
I have some radical ideas for some capstone changes for FDK. Long Winter and Shattered Frost mean well but feel bad in practice.
First I think moving The Long Winter’s affect to Shattered Frost makes more since by not forcing us to build crit. Each time you consume five stacks of Razorice add a sec to Pillar of Frost. If Breath of Sindragosa was Changed to be a high spender like Bone storm and for a set duration Shattered frost could also extend a sec each time.
For Long Winter’s replacement to keep with the columns theme it could give us x% more crit chance per stack of icy talons or a strong capstone lvl version of frozen pulse to replace Shattered Frost’s AOE.
3 Likes
Hi guys, I’ve seen a lot of people discussing the Vampiric Strike trigger rate on discord lately.
I would like to share my test situation, because this test needs a lot of data accumulation, now I only finished part of the test and accumulated 300 times Vampiric Strike trigger data.
When the trigger rate of Vampiric Strike is 10%, the result obtained is that the 13th Death Coil has a probability of about 100% to trigger Vampiric Strike, and among all triggers, the 13th Death Coil is about 43%, which means that under normal circumstances, we often need to fight 13 times Death Coil to trigger Vampiric Strike, which means about 390 runic power is consumed (not including Sudden Doom).
I think this is the guaranteed trigger mechanism for Vampiric Strike.
Second, it’s been mentioned that after you’ve accumulated a trigger rate of 20%, 30%, 60%, etc. through Vampiric Strike’s trigger guarantee mechanic, actively using Scourge Strike without triggering Vampiric Strike will reset your accumulated trigger rate, and the trigger rate will go back to the original 10%.
However, my test results indicate that there is no problem with Scourge Strike resetting the trigger rate of Vampiric Strike.
I tested this by using Death Coil 4 times in a row before unleashing Scourge Strike once, and then using Death Coil continuously until Vampiric Strike is triggered, and I finally came to the conclusion that there is a 43% chance that Vampiric Strike will be triggered on the 13th Death Coil, while the chance of Vampiric Strike being triggered beyond the 13th Death Coil is 0%.
Combined with my initial statement that the 13th Death Coil is a guaranteed trigger for Vampiric Strike, the addition of Scourge Strike in the middle does not affect the trigger rate.
If Scourge Strike affected the trigger rate, then there should be a high probability that Vampiric Strike triggers on the 17th Death Coil, but that didn’t happen.
Of course, this is a test I just did today, so I guess it’s possible that the designers will fix this problem in the near future. That’s what caused the results of my test today to be different from what they said.
1 Like
There’s a bit of grammar in there that I’m using incorrectly, and what I’m trying to say is that maybe the designer has already made changes, not that the designer will make changes in the future.
Hello there, Knight of Archerus, I am glad of continue posting my feed back for the Dk Best class ever:
In this week some of the changes where massive welcome but need more to feel on the spot.
First the Artic assault bugs was fix that is huge, because no only is given you Razorice stacks but keep icy talons when proc that is massive for the uptime of the buff.
Now with the change on icycap talent that is no great in the sense of overall philosophy because is just a 15 seg reduction; this opens some control and diversity with the hero talents:
Rider of the apocalypse feels super smooth with pillar at 45 seg cd, having it line up with your apocalypse now, and you can add chill streak in sync to have good combo but the same problem lies. Pillar is a CD you want to use with other skill because the synergy they have. Pillar is like the avenging wrath of the paladin, you will macro it with important skills to be effective; when you remove bottoms and all CD reduction talents from the Unholy tree the same philosophy can be use here.
Recommendation: you can link the pillar with other skill, like you do with radian glory on paladins; make a 2-version node with the 1 min version with an effect and a 45 seg version with an effect changer. But overall is no bad just underwhelming a bit.
Deathbringer with the change line up better with the tree with the 1 min version pilar; but the problem with this tree is that reaper mark work extremely better with dual weapon to detonate the mark, because the mark at 12 seg trigger is to slow in many situations.
Recommendation: Dark talons need a look because is super punishing and awkward to use because some time you get 7 stacks of icy talons before the mark, other with movement you lost all and need rng to go back to 7, that feels bad.
Death and decay: when you play rider is much better but some stuff just for frost dk is feels bad. Our frost tree has 0 talent that interact with DnD feels bad to press in any situation; no damage increase by mastery or extra effect, is a skill that consume a rune in situation when you need that rune to use in the actual cleave. And the placement is punishing, with no way to overcome if you tank move all over the place and need a better animation with frost to know we are cleaving.
1 Like
I feel good overall about these significant changes. Frost no longer feels particularly punished by downtime, and resources are returning to something worth playing around. I would love some insight into why stacking Strength during Pillar of Frost was removed. My best guess is that the goal is to even out the damage done within Pillar and remove awkward gameplay caused by late globals, which are much more valuable. Pillar moving to a 45-second cooldown with Icecap sometimes feels uncomfortable, as it does not align with our 2-minute cooldowns or Reaper’s Mark. I think newcomers to the spec will be particularly confused and will likely want to skip Icecap to keep their cooldowns aligned. But overall, removing dynamic cooldown reduction on Frost’s primary cooldown would be a hugely positive change. Downtime is always punishing for melee, but it felt especially punishing when it cost cooldown reduction.
Reworking Icecap and nerfing ME puts Obliteration’s resources into a solid state. I am paying more attention to my resources than in Dragonflight due to fewer Obliteration windows refunding runes and fewer Killing Machines having a smaller chance to refund runes. Occasionally, I get a streak of Killing Machine procs and start ignoring Runic Power, but this is not constant like it is in Dragonflight. In particular, I am noticing a bigger emphasis on frequent Frost Strikes to keep rolling for Runes.
I am concerned that Obliteration builds will often ignore Rime unless nothing else is available in the rotation. The current APL does not ignore it entirely, but spending Rime is a low priority. Particularly in Shattering Blade builds or builds that do not take Icebreaker. Arctic Assault now provides most of the Razorice stacks for Obliteration. I do not think this is a significant issue right now. It is natural that builds that do not pick up Rime buffing talents do not place much importance on spending it. However, if I’m looking for what might feel bad or have unintended consequences, then Rime is the first thing that comes to mind.
Before moving to Breath of Sindragosa builds, I must mention a major bug. Feast of Souls is procing multiple times from a Glacial Advance cast, either manual or from Arctic Assault (Thanks to Taeznak for figuring out the culprit in that bug). My feedback comes from builds that do not take Feast of Souls.
Breath of Sindragosa feels better with the reduced cost, but it’s still frantic. As long as Breath is sufficiently hard-hitting, I think this is okay. However, some players may find the demanding gameplay a turn-off. Breath always comes with complaints that one mistake and all your damage is gone for two minutes, so this may not be a big issue. However, in this version of the spec you will be punished harder for a mistake.
Now for Breath/Obliteration builds. Generally, we do not expect these builds to be strong because Breath forces us to use only Howling Blast to proc Killing Machine in Pillar of Frost. However, Breath/Obliteration builds are significantly ahead of the competition. Why? Arctic Assault. Take Arctic Assault out, and the build loses its edge entirely.
If we look at gameplay alone, there is a good case for Breath/Obliteration. You can play Breath like normal, and between Breaths, you can play Pillar of Frost with Killing Machine weaving. However, it comes at the cost of talent diversity. Pathing through both 2-point nodes in gate 3 blocks you from playing with the new auto-attack line. It is worse for Riders of the Apocalypse, where you must take Frostwyrm’s Fury and are heavily incentivized to also take Absolute Zero. Ideally, Breath/Obliteration is a niche possibility but not a staple build. But as things stand now, it is the dominant build.
It all comes back to Arctic Assault simply being too strong. A free, full-power Glacial Advance outclasses anything else you might spend that point on. It’s free damage, it maintains Razorice and Icy Talons, it does it all. Arctic Assault goes far beyond the scope of giving Obliteration options for AoE damage outside of Obliteration cleave.
Finally, Cold Heart warrants a mention. It already struggled to find a place and with the latest buffs to our rotational abilities, I cannot see a world where Cold Heart is ever taken. It needs some love.
5 Likes
Please noooo RI stacks, and consuming RI stacks is NOT fun gameplay. Blizzards UI doesn’t support this style of gameplay. And continually shifting targets in aoe to extend breath or pillar sounds absolutely terrible.
I honestly like shattered frost as being an optional and not complete overtake as is right now. Being able to run fallen crusader and stoneskin right now for oblit dual wield builds feels amazing. You’re a pvper, you should not want RI to be a mandatory 2nd runeforge either
2 Likes
Now you definitely should give us a raid buff… how is it that we are now the only class that doesnt have one…
Right now if you want a dk, you bring blood. I expect dk dps to be tuned on the high end but i know that wont happen. Man i love playing blood guys, only way to get in a group.
Also to add more. Grips and AMZ ARE NOT raid buffs… Most specs bring their own movement displacement on a far shorter cd relative to what DKs have in general…
5 Likes
I was about to post the same thing when I saw the new shaman raid buff, which is extremely good since it also gives windfury across the board…
Blizz, it is time you gave dks a proper raid buff, and fix the discrepancies with blood AMZ ect compared to frost/UH.
4 Likes
I have been playing DK since BFA, and I am quite specialized in all three DK specs. For raids, I mainly specialize in DPS, and for Mythic+, I play both DPS and tank roles. I want to say that the changes to Unholy DK are great, simplifying the GCD of Swarm. However, Unholy DK is currently too dependent on the new San’layn talent. This makes the Wounds and Apocalypse talents lack highlights. I hope to see improvements in the AOE benefits of Apocalypse as well as in single target situations. Additionally, the requirement of two talent points to access Apocalypse in the talent tree is too much for Unholy DK. If the prerequisite talent could be reduced to one point, Apocalypse would be more impactful.
I also think that having to spend an additional talent point to choose between Abomination and Army of the Dead is unreasonable. Not choosing the Four Horsemen talent and choosing an additional talent point does not significantly enhance single-target or AOE damage, leading Unholy DKs to avoid choosing the Army of the Dead talent. I understand it is challenging to balance a class with such a powerful burst. Moreover, the ultimate talents on the right side and the pet damage increase talents are too weak, so Unholy DKs prefer the consistent damage of the proc mage instead of the Gargoyle. The Unholy DK talent tree is still too bloated.
Regarding Frost DK, the changes feel unfavorable. The new talent tree is great, but the recent nerfs to resource generation and scaling have resulted in Frost DKs having high baseline numbers in the early stages of TWW but struggling as the version progresses and secondary stats increase. The removal of Strength stacking during Pillar of Frost and the halved runic power generation from Killing Machine are issues. Future adjustments can only be made through aura values. The upper limit and the operational demands of Frost DKs have been significantly lowered, making it more beginner-friendly.
The talent tree rework for Blood DK is nearly perfect. If Mass Grip could become a baseline ability, it would be even better. For raids, Blood DK is likely the ideal main tank, but for Mythic+, its base stats are too low. Blood DKs, being a reactive tank, have much lower health compared to Warrior and Vengeance tanks. Especially at the beginning of this patch, when the 10% passive damage reduction was removed from all tanks, Blood DKs were frequently getting one-shot in high keys, even with Vampiric Blood active, from certain tank buster abilities. I believe an additional 10% stamina would solve the current issues.
Moreover, after seeing the changes to Shaman today, DK is now the only class without a raid buff. This is detrimental for Mythic+, and in earlier versions, DK had Horn of Winter as a raid buff. I hope DKs can get some raid buffs; otherwise, even if DK’s DPS is on par with other DPS classes, it won’t compare favorably. Not just offensive buffs, but defensive ones would also be great. The group AMS in the general talent tree is excellent but its value is too low. Currently, everyone has around 6M health, but this shield only has about 300K, and it doesn’t provide immunity like AMS does. I hope DKs can get a raid buff (unless DK’s DPS can be increased significantly).
3 Likes
So, since that’s been walked back on Shaman, please give Death Knights a proper raid buff. Grips are not a raid buff when 90% of encounters just don’t need them, and in the remaining 10%, grips are often replaced by a generic knockback. AMZ is a nice tool, but only as something to think about after deciding to bring a Death Knight. It does not tip the scales between bringing a Death Knight and leaving them at home. Insidious Chill is nice, but it only significantly helps tanks in niche situations.
If the game incentivizes raid teams to fill out a matrix of buffs, each class needs an equal chance to fit into that matrix. It is simply not fun to have to argue for bringing my class.
13 Likes
It IS a little weird DKs are entirely left out of the utility aspect. Sure grips/AMZ, but that’s like counting tremor totem and vampiric embrace.
A raid buff seems fair at this point if shaman is getting one. Maybe something like:
“Dreadful Presence: Enemies you hit do x% less dmg”
“Inciteful Presence: Allies have increased haste”
“Energizing Runes: Each resource spent by allies has x% chance to refund immediately”
5 Likes
Since we are on the topic of raid utility, I have a possible controversial idea.
Now that shamans have a raid buff, and dks are officially the only 1 without it now, we certainly need one.
Fallen crusader has been the go to pick for rune forges for what feels like forever, and still will be in tww.
What if, they made it baseline (maybe in a nerfed state) and made it so when it procced, a portion of it affected others? Or maybe just the healing portion? It would feel unique compared to the simple X% more stat. But may be too strong. I am not sure. But just an idea. Curious to see if blizz will give us a raid buff at all now.
1 Like
After seeing the GOOD changes for shaman aka a raid buff:
It is DISGUSTING that DK has not received a raid buff yet. Only class in the game to not have one. Grips ARE NOT A RAID BUFF.
Take a look at mythic Fyrakk, the only end boss that I can think of that REQUIRES grips. Most guilds ran a SINGULAR BLOOD DK (with holy paladin’s autumn) to double mass grip adds while knocked in + grip 2 adds. If the group did not have enough knocks you would think they would slot in another dk for 2x grip + abom limb but what actually happened is guilds decided to use ENGINEERING knocks instead of slotting the “raid buff” the community seems to think grips are.
Its time to either give us our raid buff or delete all raid buffs.
Insidious chill is not a raid buff its literally just a rogue poison or warlock curse
AMZ is not a raid buff its literally rally or darkness
For the love of god give us a raid buff, remove cleaving strikes, and make unholy aura based off ur pet not around you.
Edit: also dps dks cannot even do what blood could do for fyrakk its time to fix that (remove abom limb in the class tree and just replace it with mass grip).
5 Likes
This is the one.
The name is easy and writes itself, too: Unholy Aura, Hysteria, Bloodied Speed, etc. 3% haste aura, low enough to not be OP but high enough to push specs to breakpoints easier. And DKs love haste.
This is a really easy and quick W; don’t screw up the easiest layup you’ll get all Beta.
9 Likes
Every single class is now required for every single raid boss (in any sort of competitive setting) except DK now. This has to be fixed. We need a raid buff. No, insidious chill, a minor melee swing slow on a single enemy, is not a raid buff.
Grips and AMZ are utility, just like every other class has. Should warrior not get battle shout because they have heroic leap? Should priest not get fortitude because they have life grip? should mage not get arcane intellect because they have blink? The (stupid) logic applied to answer yes to any of these questions is the same logic that you use to justify not giving us a raid buff.
DK dev - stand up for us! This is an easy opportunity to make a great change and earn back some trust in the DK community.
3 Likes
@Blizzard Deathknights are to be left in the dust without bringing a raid buff now that you have decided to walk back your stance on shamans and giving them Skyfury (this is great fwiw).
So the answer to why bring a DK now?, there isn’t one unless we are the top end of damage etc. which when we are near the top, the babyfaces of blizzard being mage, warrior and lock have a tanty.
Death grip, AMZ and Rez are not enough to carry us for group utility, especially when grips don’t work on all mobs and multiple classes have ways to displace mobs now and more and more classes bring combat rez with more utility (looking at paladins).
Is it time to give DK’s a raid buff, or an ability to make them a strong pick for group content, the answer is YES.
So what can we do to enhance our value to the team?
IMO Dk should bring either a raid wide haste buff or be given the Heroism/Lust ability (yes we would be the first tank class to have the ability to use Hero/Lust). Being the first tank class with Hero/Lust would make us unique among the classes.
How would this fit into our theme? Let me present 2 Options.
Heroism/Lust: The Icy Winds of Northrend: Increase haste by 30% for all party and raid members for 40 secs. Allies receiving this effect will become chilled to the bone and unable to benefit from similar effects for 10 min.
or
Raid Haste Buff: The Icy Winds of Northrend: The mere presence of the Deathknight on the battlefield sends a chill through the spine of their allies, all party and raid members have their Haste increased by 3/4%.
This would be thematic and give us some much needed group utility.
1 Like
This would be so nice too since we don’t have a haste raid buff like that and very easy to implement.
1 Like
I agree, the easiest way eould to give dks the haste aura. That being said, I disagree with the lust for dk. It wouldn’t solve the raid buff issue. Blood is already looking great for tww. If anything, lust for warriors makes more sense from a lore perspective.
3 Likes
I do tend to agree but its an option and while we are all thinking about Raid, this has pretty big impact on M+ scene too. Another Lust in the pool really increases our value there.