Feedback: Death Knight Hero Talents in The War Within

I get why they like these pet abilities, they’re cool, just need everyone to understand that there’s a point where it has gone completely overboard. Out here with ghouls, worms, beasts, gargoyles, imps, wolves, and cats all over the place and I can’t even see what is even going on anymore. Everyone’s got a giant mount and a battle pet as well. Enough. One pet for Death Knights, and I’ll allow two if you’re a BM Hunter or Demon Warlock.

Also, just let pet classes be the pet classes. I specifically play a Frost/Blood DK because I don’t want pets. Keep your blood worms and blood beasts and all of this nonsense. I’m a Death Knight, not an orange county house wife, I do not have nor want pets.

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This is the DK forums friends, not the general class forums.

And you don’t have pets, you have minions. You can argue there’s no difference, but Blood & Frost always had some form of minions until Legion. You’re a DK first and part of what makes a DK is undead minions. If you don’t want any minions, Warrior and Ret are right there.

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Fair enough. I was making a broader point that addressed DK among other classes. Even if it’s granted that DK should have minions, I still wish they had better AI and pathing.

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Nah. Minions = pets, and they both have nothing to do with Blood or Frost. No one wants them either, which is why they always get removed.

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My quick thoughts on the tree and broader DK issues. I know this is a thread for the Hero talents but the issues with DK need to be addressed because we cant just take DF Dk into War Within without fundamental changes. the class NEEDS a substantial rework.

Base DK issues:

  • Please rethink forcing DK’s to stand in Death and Decay for AOE. It’s punishes us further in a mode that we already are struggling for representation. You also made mobs constantly move around to get behind the tank, which increased the amount of movement tanks are required to perform…almost forcing them to always move from our Death and Decay.

  • Defile visual. I bring this up constantly. This is a major accessibility issue. I literally cant see visuals on the ground cause it covers them up. Please. This should have been solved a while ago.

  • Make Death and Decay an Aura effect like Immolate. Rotationally it will be the same except that we wont be punished for other players actions (I.E. tank moving packs away from a visual that they cant even see).

  • Uncap our SS/Clawing Shadows/Oblit when we are affected by Death and Decay.

  • Control Undead for Unholy is a dead talent. I literally cant interact with Incorporeal at all. I would like for this Affix to be less of a healer/tank affix, and im desperately asking to be able to contribute. But i cant without literally dismissing my pet and being unable to use rotational spells.

  • Change PI to give the target flat damage that can be attributed to the caster. PI is giving a false impression of DK performance in raids.

  • Our Spec and Class trees need a major rework. You have dead talents in the trees that haven’t/cant be picked the entire season. We were one of the first classes to have a tree made, we received one change in DF beta, and one change during Season 1. DK needs a fundamental class tree rework. We have very few choices and most of our selections are base abilities we had in SL prior to the change. For example: Improved Death Strike should be at the top of the tree and we should get Death Strike base. Please. please please. Rework the tree and give us back most of our baseline abilities we used to have. Give us choices.

  • We have three resources we have to play around: Runes, RP, and bad Rogue Combo points.

  • Give us a talent that properly lets us funnel in M+. Ticks of VP give one of our rotional abilities to have amped damage. Enhancement shaman funnel with Ashen Catalyst is the perfect example.

  • Unholy Spec tree specifically: Make Army a standard 3min cd. Make skill expression for the spell that when you hit Death coil/Epi goals while the spell is active you gain an extra magus/extra ghouls/empowers next apoc. Ect. Just let us line up abilities Better.

  • Help us reduce button bloat. Move more abilities into each other so they feel more meaningful. For example: Unholy Blight should just be attached to Dark Transformation. Empowering the ability and reducing button bloat.

  • Frost DK: Give a choice node on breath that gives a version that works better for Keys and most raid encounters where 100% boss uptime isnt possible. For Example: 30 second set duration (does more damage upfront) but runes used the spell amp the damage. Gives us skill expression with the skill but we can plan around it accordingly.

Now to move on to the Hero tree itself

  • Do not make us have to reapply our Dots. Virulent Plague has already received almost 50% worth of buffs this expansion and the button is still barely worth pressing. Instead have it amp the effectiveness/apply.

  • In my opinion the hero talents should have been primarily been an aesthetic/visual effect. There is going to be clear issues with the talents. Though if we are being honest comparing the DK effects to some of the other classes it already feels like they are on two completely different levels. The DK ones just feel boring and more of the same.

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While DK is not my main, (I do have a 476 BDK atm) - I would please request for you to re-think making dks stand in DnD. It’s not fun. I don’t know what else I can say to convince you, but all the “stand in your DnD” talents need to pls go away.

Also, since ive been playing bdk, I feel my dps choices aren’t great. Frost feels pretty weak right now, which is tuning - Unholy however, the button bloat has gotten insanely out of control. I do want an undead army, but I don’t want a ridiculous amount of buttons to manage and press, maybe that’s me personally, but I really would love some additional options in the tree to be more…passive, or prune some of the buttons/move them into other skills.

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I’ve mained dk over a decade and can honestly say that at this point in time, design isn’t even the biggest issue with dk - its identity.

Over the years we’ve only lost things about our class that brought value to groups. We’ve lost horn of winter (technically redesigned, but same thing), we’ve lost aoe cc control from frost dk (remorse winter stun), group healing with bloodworms and consumption, etc. Is the thought that bringing deathgrip outweighs all of the other utility we could bring compared to what other classes do?

There’s no reason to bring a dk to any form of pve content outside of if there’s a grip mechanic. And in the last 5 or so years, there has been only one raid boss where that made enough of a difference to have. Everything else in mythic+ or raid could be solved by bringing another class. I believe this issue is mostly a result of blizzard tuning around what they see in details meters and not actually properly weighing that with group utility.

Basically to sum up my rant, DK has been the only class I’ve ever really cared to put time and effort into and its sad to see that over the years we’ve slowly just become less of what we were due to neglect and laziness. Please fix.

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I agree about the identity issue, and this complaint is common amongst all of WoW’s classes. When you have only 9 to 13 classes to begin with, and 3 group roles, it’s inevitable that each one is going to have to do some serious heavy lifting if they ever want to have any sort of interesting identity.

A Warrior has always been trying to be a Knight, a Berserker, a Blade Master, Mountain Thane, etc… but it’ll never really scratch any of those itches because of balance. Warrior, btw, is one of the lucky ones, having access to TWO group roles. Whoa, must be nice. But still, you can never be tooo much of a Mountain Thane because then you won’t be enough of a Blade Master. It’s brutal. Death Knight, same thing… how many cool things do we not get to have because it would be stepping on Warlock toes, thematically, or a Warriors toes, functionally? Watch Rider of the Apocalypse never get a DK version of Divine Steed because “that’s a Paladin” thing. Watch.

The end result is everything just falling short and feeling like a bland, blob class. Warrior, more like a Footman or a Grunt. WoW class design is genius in certain ways, but rough for a fantasy MMO where players want to be able to mold their character as they wish.

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The issue I have is that its not like we never had identity. We used to make our groups tankier, have more meaningful add control, buff our group, etc. Now we slowly lost it all and are basically a less inspired and more boring version of what we used to be.

Feels like blizz just wants all dk players to stop playing the class and just play pally as they now bring everything we used to to the table and then some. Blizz just slowly took things away from dk while simultaneously giving it to pally.

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Like the Nymue flower effect after a bomb, but applied to DnD. Would be engaging to correctly move with trash in m+ for ex if the ground is corrupted after we walked on

This 100%. So glad someone else thinks the same.

Hello designers. It’s great to see your new design. Hero Talents has received a great response in China. Some people think it’s the artifact or Conduit 2.0, but what I see is a new take on DK by the design. After seeing San’layn, I have some small suggestions. They may not be mature enough, but I still hope to provide feedback to the designers.

I apologize for my poor English.

Infliction of Sorrow and Vampiric Strike

I’m glad to see that the designers are paying attention to the interaction between DK and Plague, and I’m very satisfied with the design of this talent, but the talent design still has some flaws in its usage, that is, the trigger rate is too random, when I don’t have Gift of the San’layn, I can only trigger Vampiric Strike randomly through Death Coil or Death When I don’t have Gift of the San’layn, I can only trigger Vampiric Strike randomly via Death Coil or Death Strike with a 10% trigger rate, so it’s going to be a very difficult situation to deal with in the middle of a fight. For example: when my Plague lasts for only 2 to 3 seconds, and I triggered Vampiric Strike, I’ll need to continuously use Outbreak twice to replenish Plague. The first time I used Outbreak was to continue the duration of Plague, and the second time I used Outbreak was to utilize the Plague inheritance mechanic to maximize the remaining damage of Plague by making the Plague duration 130% of the original. I hope the designers can understand that if this does happen, it will result in a very difficult experience for the player, and even anger at the Infliction of Sorrow talent.

If it can be modified, I hope the designers can modify the design of the 10% chance of Death Coil or Death Strike triggering to read: in the absence of a Gift of the San’layn, every 10 seconds a Death Coil or Death Strike makes the next Scourge Strike or Heart Strike into a Vampiric Strike; or modified to: after the duration of Gift of the San’layn is over, your first Death Coil or Death Strike triggers a fixed Vampiric Strike, and on the 10th second after using Vampiric Strike, it will once again cause your Death Coil or Death Strike to fix-trigger Vampiric Strike.

The reason for this change is to fix the entire flow so that you don’t waste runes or GCDs to reuse a skill, causing the entire battle to seem bloated and overwhelming; secondly the reason why it’s set to Vampiric Strike every 10 seconds is also based on Plague’s duration, as I’m defaulting to Ebon Fever in the case that Plague lasts 13.5 seconds, a time period where it would be very easy to either patch up early or do whatever, and even if you don’t order Ebon Fever, Vampiric Strike every 10 seconds won’t be affected much.

The Blood is Life

This talent looks very interesting, but the actual use is a garbage, you can see Unholy DK’s Ruptured Viscera, no one use Ruptured Viscera this talent, the same tier of Magus of the Dead is more cost-effective, especially Blood Beast explosion looks powerful, but it needs to wait for 10 seconds. The Blood Beast explosion looks powerful, but it needs to wait for 10 seconds, which will be its Achilles heel. In this fast-paced era, 10 seconds is already enough for DH or other professions to kill monsters other than the boss, and by the time we finish the explosion in 10 seconds, the only thing that will be attacked is the air, and the damage dealt will only be zero.

If it can be modified, I hope the designers can refer to DH’s Ragefire, Blood Beast is no longer triggered by Vampiric Strike probability, we can design a Blood Tank, 50% of the damage we dealt or healed will be accumulated in the Blood Tank, and when the accumulation is full, it will allow the next Vampiric Strike to be directly summoned! Blood Beast, when summoned, Blood Beast will charge at the target and explode, immediately dealing explosion damage equal to the accumulated value of the Blood Slot, which is shared amongst the surrounding targets. If Blood Beast is not in combat when summoned, Blood Beast will follow the DK around until it enters combat and charges the nearest target causing an explosion, and then the DK will be able to use the Blood Beast as a weapon to destroy the target. Pact of the San’layn will increase the cap of the Blood Slot by 75% and 100% of the damage or healing we deal will be accumulated in the Blood Slot; or Blood Beast will continue to consume the Blood Slot after being summoned to inflict a small Blood Storm on the surrounding area until the Blood Slot is consumed, then Blood Beast will disappear, if not in combat, Blood Beast will follow the DK around until it charges the nearest target causing an explosion. If not in combat, the Blood Beast will follow the DK around, and Pact of the San’layn will make the Blood Beast permanent, with a maximum of two Blood Beasts, and 80% of the damage or healing we do will be accumulated in the Blood Slot, and whenever the Blood Slot accumulates to 50%, the Blood Beast will be destroyed. Whenever the Blood Slot reaches 50%, the Blood Beast will automatically release a Blood Storm.

The reason why we have Blood Beast charging is a reference to Reanimated Shambier in 9.0, where you slowly walk up to the target to explode, the design is so stupid that by the time your zombie even slowly walks up to the target, the whole fight is over, and we’re still attacking the air and dealing 0 damage.

Infliction of Sorrow instead of Festering Wound

Since Gift of the San’layn can make Vampiric Strike no longer consume Plague and deal 20% of Plague’s remaining damage, doesn’t that mean we can make Plague work for the duration of Gift of the San’layn instead of Festering Wound? Gift of the San’layn duration instead of Festering Wound, this would be a very interesting idea, and if it were to come to fruition, San’layn could change the entire landscape of Unholy DK.

Can Plague be used instead of Festering Wound during Gift of the San’layn since it gives direct access to Vampiric Strike? If so, we could create an ability for Gift of the San’layn that doesn’t interfere with the DK’s original mechanics and allows them to better experience its power.

Gift of the San’layn lasts for a duration.

Plague replaces Festering Wound and gains 3 Runic Power each time Vampiric Strike deals 20% of Plague’s remaining damage to an enemy. This triggers Festermight and Bursting Sores. Vampiric Strike no longer extends the duration of Plague by 3 seconds.

Festering Strike and Marrowrend no longer apply Festering Wound to the target. Additionally, every third Festering Strike or Marrowrend will only consume 1 Runic.

Instead, they extend the duration of Plague on the target by 6 seconds. Unholy Assault also extends the duration of Plague on the target by 12 seconds.

Apocalypse will no longer detonate up to four layers of Festering Wound. Instead, it will deal 70% of the remaining damage of Plague.

Vile Contagion has been modified to infect up to seven other targets around it with the maximum Plague duration on the current target.

Death’s Caress will also extend the duration of Plague on the target by 4.5 seconds while gaining Bone Shield.

The text explains how to modify Gift of the San’layn based on the playstyle of World of Warcraft: Wrath of the Lich King’s DK. According to the author, the DK from this time period will be the more popular choice.

To increase the duration of the Plague, use Vampiric Strike, Festering Strike, and Death Coil when entering Gift of the San’layn. Ebon Fever can be extended from 13 seconds. The Plague duration can range from 5 to 27 or 40 seconds, and even up to 60 seconds or more. Increasing the duration of Gift of the San’layn also increases the total remaining damage. Additionally, Vampiric Strike is triggered directly by the first Death Coil at the end of Gift of the San’layn. When we end Gift of the San’layn for the first time, we can deal a significant amount of residual Plague damage to the target. This is more interesting and powerful than not being able to predict when Vampiric Strike triggers, causing us to replenish Plague on our hands.

Can we take inspiration from the Venthyr and their ability to teleport over long distances? This aligns with the vampire image we are modeled after. Instead of bloodsucking acceleration, could we replace it with this teleportation ability?

It would allow us to instantly teleport to a location out of sight and recharge twice.

Then there is Blood-Soaked Ground, a skill that cannot be changed to better align with San’layn’s identity.

Blood-Soaked Ground causes the DK to consume Death and Decay, granting the DK Blood Pact for 10 seconds. This deals 0.25% of the DK’s maximum health in Shadow damage to the DK every 0.5 seconds. Every time he deals damage to DK, he causes DK’s blood to spill on all enemies within 10 yards of himself. Enemies affected by DK’s blood take Shadow damage every second. 25% of this damage heals DK for 3 seconds. DK is also equivalent to being in Death and Decay for the duration of the Blood Pact. The effect lasts for 10 seconds.

Lastly some small suggestions, if I had chosen San’layn as an Unholy DK wouldn’t my effects have been red with blood as well, like Warlock who received green evil fire, which I’m sure is very cool!

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No they dont. Minions arent permanent while pets are.

They have 100% to do with Blood and Frost because they are a part of the DK. Its people like you that ruin classes trying to turn specializations into their own class.

I do, plenty of other people do to because they want to play a Death Knight.

They got removed because they tried turning specializations into classes, its more evident with the DK.

The DK has lost all of its identity, an undead general of the battlefield that was a killing machine that summoned the undead, spread disease and had their own speciality though specializations. The overall identity stayed relatively the same for DK until legion. While each DK spec has its own disease which is one of the dumbest decisions ever because “frost should only use frost!” mentality, diseases play practically no role than passive damage when they used to empower you rewarding you for their upkeep. There were problems with Army taunting stuff but that was fixed.

DK’s arent DK’s anymore because of bad ideas like “we dont want undead pets on frost and blood!” most of us do.

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While on talking of Frost:

  1. Make Remoseless Winter our DnD.
  2. If we are continuing to do Breath of Sindragosa:
  • Make it baseline with some sort of augmentation for 2h - perhaps echo’d critical strikes on Obliterate (like a dragons roar; with option for talent to make it AoE)

  • Make a talent so you can remove BoS for bonus power in other areas of your kit

Do something interesting and different.

Or just remove the 30% Obliterate damage from MoTFW and add FC to it & normalize the KM procs by adding a refund mechanic for every X KMs consumed. Then you can just play DW or 2h, without being forced into a build, and have both play exactly the same.

I really don’t understand how people don’t get this: there isn’t any power to take from BoS.

The entire spec’s power is inside KM Obliterate. Taking any power out of BoS is the equivalent of taking it out from Raise Dead. If you want power put into the rest of the spec then you want KM Obliterate nerfed (and it should be).

Something different would be removing the guaranteed crit from KM so the entire spec can actually scale with crit instead of just 50%.

Something different would be a talent that makes the RP spenders cost more to do more.

Something different would be a Remorseless Winter and/or Howling Blast based capstone.

Something different would be bringing back Icy Touch as Cold Heart and having it integrate within the core kit (extra RP generation / increased crit chance for X seconds, grants a KM on use, etc).

Remorseless cleave & nerfing BoS just for the sake of nerfing it aren’t “something different”, it’s just bad design and a waste of developer time.

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This is one thing I just dont get with how rune returns work. You have a % chance per RP spent to gain a rune. So if you had 200% to gain a rune, that would still be just one rune. Its like hit chance, once you have 100% chance to hit you dont get extra attacks past that chance to hit so all that RP would be wasted past the 100% mark. At best you would want things to cost 50 RP which would give you 100% chance at gaining a rune and you would gain 2 runes per 100rp spent.

Unless the rune system went back to your runes just come off of CD at certain intervals with no Runic Empowerment, I dont think this high RP cost stuff would really work with Frost without introducing more downtime.

I think he meant use more rp to increaae damage maybe. Which I would be all for, especially if more power is brought to the rp spenders.

This would be a good idea. I would add that baseline obliterate should be partial damage (like scourge strike is mixed). And KM procs just make it full frost damage. KM imo should be based on PPM imo as well.

You have a lot of good takes overall. I would love to hear in depth ideas on what to do to improve all dks specs. (talents included)

As stated by prior posters, Blood’s core identity is already San’layn in part, arguably more so with its existing blood-themed abilities. Thematically, what does San’layn provide that BDK does not already have? I am still a fan of the hero talent idea though.

Also, the end of the tree is a bit anti-climatic. It feels like the maximum stack of Essence of the Blood Queen would lead to a burst of power (for example, Awakening stacks for Holy Paladin). Instead, Gift of San’layn just buffs the existing stacks and guarantees more of the same. I am not saying it is weak, just repetitive/uninteresting in my opinion.

So just some quick math (not perfect and accounting for everything [like MoTFWs 30% boost] either!) to highlight why I think removing the crit from KM could be a beneficial change and, by extension, solve most of people’s damage issues.

The current #1 Obliteration log on Volcoross has:

  • 27.36m Obliterate damage, average hit of 255.7k
  • 7.24m Frost Strike damage, average hit of 103.4k
  • 4.99m Remorseless Winter damage, average hit of 27.9k
  • 4.38m Chill Streak damage, average hit of 97.2k
  • 3.24m Howling Blast damage, average hit of 49.2k / 2.04m Frost Fever damage

For a total of 47.21m damage from the baseline abilities.

The user has about 31%~ crit. Removing the guaranteed crit from KM and adding their % crit change would put the Obliterate damage to 17.92m with an average hit of 167.5k~. If that remaining 9.44mil was pumped all into Frost Strike without any other talent changes, we’d end up with 16.68m damage with an average hit of 238k~.

If we split that 9.4m into the rest of the base kit equally, using the above log, we’d end up with a distribution instead like:

  • 17.92m Obliterate damage, average hit of 167.5k~
  • 10.386m Frost Strike damage, average hit of 148.4k
  • 8.136m Remorseless Winter damage, average hit of 45.45k
  • 6.38m Howling Blast damage, average hit of 96.7k / 2.04m Frost Fever damage
  • 4.38m Chill Streak damage, average hit of 97.2k

For a total of 47.202m damage from the baseline abilities.

This basically doubles the other builders in the kit and buffs FS by 50%. From a pure ST perspective, you’re less incentivized [with the current talent tree] to ignore RP and continue hitting Obliterate because Frost Strike would be almost the same damage as Obliterate per GCD instead of half. And, of course, the damage boost to FS would apply to GA to keep the AoE spender useful, too.

I’m not saying this is the best solution since the talent trees would still need major work to remove the hyper-focus on Obliterate and BoS would still need to be tuned separately after, but I do believe it would be a fantastic start towards redistributing damage to the rest of the kit, move away from the tunnel vision Obliterate spam where 3x Obliterate becomes the best rotational move (which is exactly what Blizzard wanted to move away from with the Legion redesign), and ultimately allow Obliterate cleave (for the people who enjoy it) to remain a thing and maybe have a choice node to buff it 5 targets like HS/SS against a stronger Scythe.

  • And to follow up on AoE/cleave, the #1 Obliteration Gnarlroot log would have roughly 12m~ with the above change, meaning with the 9.4m that was pumped into the other base abilities, there’d only be 2.6m left in a hypothetical AoE/cleave scenario, which could easily be resolved by increasing the amount of targets Obliterate could cleave to or reducing the % Howling Blast is reduced by to secondary targets.
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