Feedback: Death Knight Hero Talents in The War Within

Classes Death Knight
103

The drawback of the crawl idea, in my opinion, is the duration of DnD relative to the amount of movement required on certain fights or chain pulls in M+. An alternative would be to allow the benefits of DnD/Defile to linger on the player for a few seconds after leaving DnD/Defile, but no longer than the duration of the actual spell. That way movement is not a 100% loss, but careful planning will optimize the uptime.

Regardless, the underlying issue is that Blizzard decided to tie the cleave target cap to DnD/Defile. Personally, I don’t think DnD would be nearly as divisive as it is now if Blizzard tied the target cap to another spell (or forgo it entirely).

A problem with this hero talent preview is that we don’t know what, if any, other changes are planned for the classes going into 11.0. Earlier, I was critical of this hero tree preview for the passive power-increases, but I don’t know what the action economy will be for BDK in 11.0. In future previews it would be helpful to know what class changes Blizzard is mulling in tandem with the hero talents.

1 Like
104

Slow melee specs dont need stand still inside X ability mechanics attached to them

DnD is fine as an ability for blood, but for frost and unholy it should really only serve a niche use of being used to stop drinks around LoS, Or break stealths from being stealthed

Having your entire class be based around standing in such a small circle is the most unpleasant experience ever

6 Likes
105

Fair idea,
Though I only slightly disagree with the chain pulling part. Generally speaking if you’re using DnD as enemy count is down to 2/3 with low health, you’re wasting its potential in my opinion. It’s then best served on the new pack being brought in and you typically wait for everything to be grouped up and then hammer it. The same goes for most classes when AoEing.

That said, I think your variation of the idea is viable as well and could see that being a good way to not have it be so punishing.

I don’t PvP - but if DKs are forced to use DnD in PvP scenarios for DPS reasons, that sounds terrible.

1 Like
106

This hero spec is sorely lacking fantasy wise. No interaction with Blooddrinker (???), doesn’t encourage using the blood-themed runeforges like Sanguination and especially Unending Thirst, no changes to Blood Plague and especially Virulent Plague, all of Unholy’s summons are still zombies instead of anything vampiric… the list goes on.

But cool, even more DnD reliance! That’s what DKs wanted, right?

5 Likes
107

I’d rather have more dnd reliance that be forced to use any of these.

108

All of these hero specs would be great opportunities to introduce thematically appropriate runeforges that would finally peel us away from Fallen Crusader, as well as introduce auras again. Group and raid buffs have been very lopsided in Dragonflight. Spreading the love around a bit more, be it through hero specs or otherwise, would be a good call, since devs have decided to throw out all previous lessons learned over the prior 16 years by going with the Dragonflight talent scheme anyway.

3 Likes
109

Very bad take.

10 Likes
110

Main gripes I have: the added utility is very underwhelming. You guys give other classes very distinct and strong utility but why when it comes to dk is our DA speed increase something so small as 20% for 5 secs to group? Or the leech tied to a 2 min cd?

-I’d rather see the group speed increase be higher speed %.
-The leech buff is moving in the right direction, but making it a 3% permanent group buff would be better. Also tie the increase in group leech to an offensive cd thats a lower cooldown but also decrease the leech amount (maybe 15%?).

I’d like to see some emphasis on dk’s getting decent group utility as for the last 3 expansions there has been 0 reason to bring a dps dk to any raid or high m+ because there is always more value from something meta (which utility usually keeps dk from meta since blizz only balances around details meters).

1 Like
111

all they need to do is make dnd like remorseless winter where it follows you around

112

Crawling Dnd/Defile issue is that it still requires insane amount of set up just to be able to do aoe damage, something most successful mythic plus specs don’t have to.

The idyllic idea of skill being tied to DND placement will keep the same issues we have right now, it’s super unfun to play and goes against everything that happens in keys (tanks moving mobs out of dnd some times even for no reason, projectiles, forced movement, etc).

Currently it feels we are everything that was wrong with other specs in the past:

  • Combo points on target (not even rogues have this anymore because it was bad design)
  • Dependent on Consecration like Retri palas early DF
  • A bunch of maintenance buffs like Retri palas early DF
5 Likes
113

To be fair, Runeforges could use a full revamp as well. It’s such an iconic part of the class fantasy.

My personal wish was a talent like the Anima Power where once enemies die you could collect more runes for your weapon through the key until you collect all of them.

114

Those words “Rework DK” seem to be lost in translation. The player’s keep asking for it, but all the developers hear is “everything is working A ok”.

11 Likes
115

Rework it to what? Yelling at Blizzard to rework something doesnt do anything.

“But they reworked Ret!” and Ret basically had a whole council that got together agreed on the problems of the spec and got like 80% of what was found to be problems fixed.

The difference with DK is what it is now is exactly what the forums asked for. More obliterate damage to the point its oppressive to the spec, more Obliterate cleave (asked for 5 target cleave but got 3) talents moved around, certain things made baseline. Its not like Frost was ignored and actually got exactly what they asked for. I dont trust these DK forums to make a 1 button spec because this entire time they got what they wanted and hated it.

It doesnt even need a rework, just a small update and damage taken from Obliterate so other things can gain power.

1 Like
116

Dks as a whole need reworks. Our talent system is arguably the worst out of all classes.
We have a tank who’s mitigation also comes with negatives. And the blood tree has no real choice in what you take. But blood is so hard to balance, you either are a god or a bug under a boot

Unholy is still full of button bloat and hitting so many cds before you can do a real rotation. Wounds have so many issues and in ST are sometimes ignored. Even the main disease Unholy has feels so bad to even hit for the little dps is provides. Not to mention thE issue with resources.

Frost has a ton of issues. Not just obliterate. The way the spec plays fundamentally is an issue. Betweeen obliteration to Skills like breath needing to be looked at. It is set up to literally be okay to cap on resources… that alone should say enough is enough and let the devs know there is a fundamental issue

The general tree is a joke, especially when a capatone like soul reaper still exists.
When 2/3classes end up ignoring parts of their kit or capping on resources because using them leads to a dps loss, then there are real issues.

So yea, I’d say dks need a rework.

10 Likes
117

Here’s what I like to do with people and their (Opinion) based conjecture. Wipe it away like I would after taking a crap.

Apparently you are of the Opinion Dk’s don’t need a rework, it would seem there are far more (Not You) that doesn’t share that opinion.

Merry Christmas.

6 Likes
118

Been that way since cata. People were getting 1 shot on H Rag as Blood DK’s with like 1m blood shields. At least that was what was being claimed at the time. Its also not actually mitigation, its reactive. The “mitigation” is tied to how much damage you take.

Realistically, the playerbase kind of prevents this from happening even if there was “choice”. If you dont take what is seen as the best you are overlooked. M+ pushed this outlook with timers and infinite scaling. I mean just the timer alone forces this outlook.

That has been said since cata.

So are other specs. Enhancement shaman is one of these depending on what you take. Earthen Elemental, Spirits, Doom Winds, Ascendence, Windfury Totem all on the GCD and some dont even do initial damage which goes against their design philosophy that if a CD does damage its on the GCD and if it doesnt then its off the GCD.

Very true. Its been shown that if you ignore Outbreak and applying wounds for anything but Apoc since its a requirement its a minimal dps loss which can get down to .7% dps loss if you change up your build.

Because it has a high focus on Obliterate.

Breath isnt the problem. Its not stopping anything from happening to the spec. Its a lot easier to balance other parts of the spec if BoS is infinite granted that you can keep it up. If its infinite then that takes Frost Strike and GA off the table for that build and can be tuned independently

Soul Reaper has almost always been a joke of an ability and really just used to cheese the second part of the ability to gain the buff.

The overcapping on resources is entirely on Obliterate in this case and the talents that work with and around it. Frigid Executioner, Murderous Efficiency, having a high KM count, that alone gives back so many runes. But this is what people wanted, some even saying they just wanted to press 1 button the entire time and that button being Obliterate.

Maybe some of these people should have spoken up against some of these changes instead of saying I didnt know what I was talking about because I brought up a lot of things way back in SL when the spec started down this road.

119

Because it doesnt need a full on rework. Even ret didnt get a full on rework, it just got issues within the spec to be fixed. It is still fundamentally the same. DK just needs some things fixed. Wounds and diseases, the hyperfixation on Obliterate being the main ones. A lot of people are saying Blood is fun and is in need of nothing except number tweaks.

But ill still ask the question that no one has yet to answer… REWORK IT TO WHAT?! You can list problems, but what should they be reworked to and why should Blizzard listen to any of it when this community asked for what we have right now?

120

Happens to unholy as well in some scenarios.

Exactly my point. It has been an issue for so long. Exactly why dks needs to be looked at as a whole.

I’d love to hear your ideas on hos they can fix dks.

121

They already said it: remove damage from Obliterate and put it into the rest of the kit for Frost. Which isn’t entirely great, since KM is the actual issue and suffocates regular Obliterate, so it’d just be gutting the builder to buff the other builders & spender(s). But even then, we’d still have a glut of resources for the spec, so their idea of “just remove damage from Obliterate/KM” fixes the damage problem but not the design problem :person_shrugging:

122

I have been giving my 2 cents for a while. Frost is quite easy at least in terms of a start, Frostreaper is a huge component and it should go. Ive talked about the absolutely massive gulf in Obliterate damage from a non-KM to a KM proc since its introduction. Either that, or make KM procs rare and bring in another rune spender that already exists in game that just gets overwritten when you get to a certain level and pick a specialization. Rune Strike would be perfect for that just make it cost 2 runes. KM makes Obliterate free if Frostreaper just has to stay because people might pitch a fit if it gets removed.

To fix resources something just has to be removed. When you can spend 2 runes and gain 3 resulting in a net gain of runes something is off. Thats just from Frigid Executioner and Murderous Efficiency not counting rune gains from Obliteration and Rime procs, passive regen from haste on your gear along with Empower Rune Weapon not only giving Runes and Runic power over the duration but also speeds up rune regen. So something has to go so you actually spend RP to gain those runes back instead, as it was intended.

Might be best just to do a hard reset to a previous build for a baseline and build off of it. Cataclysm or Legion are 2 potential possibilities for this (in terms of frost and I dont like unholy much from any iteration of it)