You can’t prove that [yet].
we need to make noise so theres a possibility there will be and not wait n see. which has been a let down time after time
There is not a single defensive that both Blood & Unholy share that Frost does not also have access to.
It is literal fear mongering over a non-issue for Frost instead of focusing on actual issues with the spec.
Hire* lol busting your chops
Sadly, Dk as a whole needs a rework, but Frost really needs it bad.
13 Likes
That’s a good idea about the class tree!
The only viable Hero Talent spec that would make me want to play my Death Knight is a Necromancer.
Make Army of the Dead a permanent skill (cast once and minions never expire).
If you can imagine a Diablo Necromancer with his army of minions then you’re on the right track.
Make it happen Blizz.
2 Likes
I think it’s fine to bake offensive power into baseline defensive abilities, especially where there are other tanks that have had such combo abilities or pure offensive cooldowns for a while. The way that I’ve played those tanks has always been with the intent to use such cooldowns defensively first and foremost, only looking to leverage their offensive power when opportunity allows, which I think is a great avenue for skill expression. As such, I don’t know that concern about VB getting an offensive perk is warranted.
Additional feedback, I thought all hero talents were meant to have 4 choice nodes, yet we only have 3.
Starting off with the good parts: I personally really like the choice nodes in the San’layn tree. I think they are compelling decisions that should all have unique and realistic use cases. My only critique is that while the CDR for IBF is strong, it isn’t as thematic as defensives like Vampiric Blood or Death Pact. I would love to see a talent on this tree that makes Death Pact a compelling choice for both Blood and Unholy.
I don’t love the implementation of Blood is Life or Infliction of Sorrow, but I think they are conceptually interesting enough. More disease gameplay is always welcome. I’d like to see some changes to how they trigger and how they interact with your CDs, but otherwise they are just fine.
However, my primary issue with this tree is Essence of the Blood Queen and Vampiric Strike more generally. This reads like a slightly-RNG maintenance buff that gives some haste all the time and a lot of haste in your CDs. Personally, maintainence buffs are some of my least favorite gameplay in all of wow and I think DKs have enough going on without worrying about another “spinning plate”.
Thematically, it seems like the intent was about sapping the strength of your enemies, but I think there are significantly more interesting choices that could exist in that space. I would love to see more interaction around Raise Dead, diseases, Death and Decay, or even Runeforges. Maybe something like an increased chance to proc Brittle or Enfeeble (or Enfeeble multiple targets). Or rather than adding power to D&D, instead seeing some kind of duration extension or a way to proc a temporary D&D effect on yourself. Also, Rune of Sanguination and Rune of Unending Thirst are both rarely utilized and are hugely thematic to this hero spec. Or could a new disease could be introduced that rather than adding another buff to track or spell to the spellbar, would replace an existing mechanic (similar to the Thunderclap replacing Whirlwind for fury warriors)?
Again, I think the spec is fine thematically and the utility looks cool and interesting, I would just love to see the core gameplay shifted to something more interesting and interactive in a fun way.
2 Likes
While technically true, the issue is not the defensives that people are complaining about, it is all the additional healing Unholy gets over Frost, that we know of so far that the gap shown presently with this just makes it bigger.
While having access to all plagues as Unholy it does get a TINY percentage of healing from blood plague: A shadowy disease that drains 64 health from the target over 24 sec. Granted it isn’t a lot.
Then we have this:
- Gift of the San’layn: While Vampiric Blood or Dark Transformation is active you gain Gift of the San’layn . Gift of the San’layn increases the effectiveness of your Essence of the Blood Queen by 100% and replaces your Heart Strike and Scourge Strike with Vampiric Strike for the duration.
Which goes into this:
- Vampiric Strike heals you for 3% of your maximum health and grants you Essence of the Blood Queen , increasing your Haste by 1.5%, up to 7.5% for 20 seconds.
Now depending on what build of Frost you play its a non-issue, but if you’re playing Breath Build hypothetically, just messes up the whole rotation and ends windows early.
If frost had for example 3% healing on obliterate while pillar of frost is active (or something similar if we’re trying to do comparisons. Which fundamentally yes, is an issue with Frost having 2 different playstyles.
I think a lot of people just want more sustain to Frost and now we can only sit back and hope Deathbringer brings some sustain/other passive healing to Frost.
You would assume correctly because thats exactly what I said word for word. Its not “all passives” some trees have brand new abilities.
No its not, you said someone didnt read it… that could be anyone in this thread.
But this is on the San’layn hero talent tree right and not on “other trees”. So these are all passives, there isnt a single active ability within San’layn. Its so funny how you guys try to go straight for the jugular and fail spectacularly every single time.
So who didnt read the blue post or look at the thread title? That would be YOU.
I think fixing how outdated and neglected all 3 DK specs feel (despite how powerful/weak they might be numbers wise) would be better BEFORE building on them.
Unholy: Remove the wounds, bring something more interesting. Change the forced staying on DnD, that playstyle is polar opposite to how dungeons play these days. Defile animation is like gambling if you die or live, it has been reported multiple times that people can’t see anything under it, if there are one-shot mechanics you just can’t see them. The entire maintenance buffs in this spec is something else…
Frost: Chill streak feels bad, including animation. There is so much potential in the spec to be cool but it seems like it always falls short. Same problems with DnD as unholy except worst.
Blood: same problems as usual, lack of choice, capstones are uninspiring, loads of noobtrap talents that were bad since BFA, idk how they keep showing up - and its not a mater of tunning. Feast and famine spec, that you can either play it or get kinda 1-shotted at certain key/gear levels. Bring back Spectral deflection.
Fix things like these, there was an amazing feedback post earlier on this forum, send it to the devs and fix it.
I don’t know if it’s disconnect from reality or just lack of pride in making new stuff but how do we go from obviously no one taking Leeching Strikes to making Vampiric Strike. It feels - on paper - underwhelming and not doing much towards the spec shortcomings.
1 Like
Its kinda pointless to give feedback to developers who arent interested in it, Also kinda pointless to give feedback on a classes new hero talents, when the entire class itself needs a complete rework
But ya, 3% hp per vampiric strike is gonna be SOOOOOOOOOOO good while you fight brainless NPCs in 20 man raids with 3-5 healers
14 Likes
I enjoy the vampire theme quite a bit, but as many others have said; using DnD in single target, and punishing the player for not standing in it is a no go ghost rider.
Hopefully Blood-Soaked Ground never sees the light of day.
Thats exactly why its going to see the light of day, the devs when it comes to DK, Dont care about what we actually want they only care about funneling us the weirdest most gimmicky niche abilities and playstyles
9 Likes
Yeah cause PvP is soooo much more skill intensive than anything else with all those add-ons that track basically everything for you so you.
Your “holier than thou” attitude towards PvE is really intolerable, especially when you post weekly complaints about Frost in PvP and then praise every % Obliterate buff that gets thrown out.
They didn’t directly say “We’re making huge sweeping changes” but they did mention a few times in the developer interview videos that they’re going to be making changes to more of the talent trees so that the Hero trees don’t feel awkward.
Again, they didn’t specifically say DK or anything, just mentioned how with Fury & Unholy there’s things in the Hero trees that encourage different talents/abilities and they’d be working on the class & spec trees to better incorporate that
Lol, thanks for confirming
2 Likes
I’m going to echo what several others have said. Death and Decay gameplay feels like a chain. It feels most punishing within M+ where we have dungeon mechanics and affixes to deal with. Even if we place a DnD perfectly, there are many times where we’re forced out of it in M+, either due to speed of the run or mechanics. I watched the video interview, and it was said “It’s something we’re actively looking at” but you’re continuing to build upon it through decisions like this one.
DnD in general also feels a bit wrong - what I mean by that is the player has to stand in it to gain the effect, but the enemies do not. There are times where I place the DnD and the enemies are moving but I am trying my best to stay in the DnD for as long as possible and I do not care that the enemies themselves are not in it. It feels a bit backwards.
I know the general consensus players have is: “make it an aura”. While I think that fixes the problem, it admittedly (to me) sounds less fun after thinking about it - it becomes “just another button to press”. There is some skill involved in playing around DnD while also avoiding mechanics, but we can’t move our DnD if the fight needs to move and that’s where it’s not fun. Furthermore, if we lose even 1 GCD during our DnD window, it feels really bad due to the longer CD- especially for Frost.
A couple of ideas:
DnD/Defile slowly crawls towards the players position while active. This would still encourage skill-based placement and the idea of empowered while in “decaying ground” while also being a bit less punishing if the fight is moving. And if it’s a slow movement - it would encourage the player to think about where they adjust if they need to avoid a mechanic rather than run in a random direction (say if everyone needs to dodge - it’d be best to dodge in the direction of the tank’s movement). Speed of the crawl would likely need some testing to feel right. Too fast and you might as well make it an aura, too slow and it doesn’t solve anything.
DnD/Defile total duration is decreased and places something like a 3-second debuff on enemies which mimics cleaving strikes and haste gain (or any other buff it provides). This still requires skill-based placement for optimal uptime, assuming the fight is moving around, but is less punishing for those scenarios where the fight is forced to move out or fast-moving M+ runs.
DnD slowly crawls towards your active target. While I think this would be mostly fine in M+ - this would be annoying in raid encounters, I think. Especially those with huge hitboxes or positions that are not accessible by the player (Volcoross as an example). So perhaps this wouldn’t work that well, but maybe it might spark some additional thought or ideas.