Feedback: Death Knight Hero Talents in The War Within

Before I talk about the Hero Talents a little bit, I first want to talk about a major issue plaguing DK right now, especially Frost and as many have probably guessed, that issue is Death and Decay. Playing around DnD in raids and dungeons is not fun or interesting gameplay, it leads to a lot of frustration more then it leads to any type of satisfaction, especially when you finally get everything set up, put down DnD, then a ground aoe targets right on top of it and you have to move out, especially in M+ Dungeons. This is an issue for Blood and Unholy, but this affects Frost significantly more due to all of Frost’s Burst AoE being tied directly to cleaving Obliterates inside DnD. It was talked about a bit in the interview that was done with Nate and Biceps, but I want to give more emphasis on how much of an issue the current design of DnD is for all specs of Death Knight. I really hope that there is a rework planned for DnD going into War Within that address this.
I’m also hoping that Frost and Unholy are getting or at least being considered for reworks due to both having some major issues other then DnD. Unholy could get by with some talent adjustments and some talent reworks, but Frost desperately need a full blown Ret lvl rework.

Regarding hero talents, San’layn looks really cool, again I am really concerned about the talents that further incentivize standing in DnD, I’m also a little concerned about Vampiric Strike consuming Virulent Plague when not in Dark Transformation, Virulent Plague is barely worth pressing already and I’m concerned that having to press it more times then you do now is just going to feel bad due to it being constantly consumed. Hoping that’s not the case though. Other then those two things, it looks pretty cool and I cannot wait to see the other two, especially Rider of the Apocalypse.

3 Likes

Overall looks pretty interesting. Only issue I have is the potential of having to hit outbreak way more than we already do since it will be consumed over and over. Also a bit iffy on having to be tied to death and decay / defile in high movement encounters. Flavor-wise it seems amazing though, excited to try it out!

bored out of my mind with those talents, Not surprised

My feedback : They made more boring passive talents for DK that are going to be wildly underwhelming compared to what other classes will get

and they did it before fixing the flawed talent trees we have currently

Over a year of no blue interaction just for them to ask for feedback, something theyve been ignoring for the past year and a half now

8 Likes

Your Death Coil and Death Strike have a 10% chance to make your next Heart Strike or Scourge Strike become Vampiric Strike . Vampiric Strike heals you for 3% of your maximum health and grants you Essence of the Blood Queen , increasing your Haste by 1.5%, up to 7.5% for 20 seconds.

10% chance seems far too low. Is Vampiric Strike Physical or Shadow damage?

When Vampiric Strike damages an enemy affected by Blood Plague or Virulent Plague it consumes the disease dealing 200% of the remaining damage.

This is going to allow Blood Death Knights to one shot.

I honestly would love to see them create a San’layn Heroic ability that does something similar to the CHARM ability that is used by Blood Queen in Icecrown - Uncontrollable Frenzy

It could be setup so that it has a maximum number of enemies that can be under its effects at any given time with it being permanent on NPC’s within a given zone or instance if they are charmed under its effects until they die. As an example it might only effect a maximum of 2 or 3 NPC’s at any given time and the charm can be cancelled by the DK at anytime by either cancelling the Aura on the NPC or for example that attack the charmed NPC etc otherwise it will last until that NPC dies or the DK changes zones like leaving an instance etc. In terms of the ability the DK would not have any direct control over what abilities the charmed NPC’s actively use etc. this would be done essentially by something similar to how the Priests Mind Control works when they opt out of the active control and set it to be more passive.

In terms of PvP or against other players this ability might be limited to only one at a time but would have a larger duration that other forms of charm in PvP (for example 15 to 20 seconds) and have some kind of built in dispel protection; for example when dispelled it causes a significant amount of damage upon the charmed player and the player who dispelled them. Alternatively it could do damage to the dispelled player but have a high chance to cause the dispeller to fall under effects of the charm effects. This would force the charmed individuals allies to either try to CC them or even potentially kill them and if they try to dispel or remove the charmed effect and if they do they will face severe consequences that could be disastrous for the charmed player and the player trying to dispel them. Again like the NPC version the DK has no control over what abilities the charmed player uses etc. as this is all passive the only control would be aligned with pet attack, pet stay, pet move here abilities only.

This might be based on a chance linked to the number of times a target has been hit by Vampiric Strikes that increases for each hit; for example its is 10% for hit Vampiric Strike up to a maximum of 50% normally. However, when the DK is under the effects of Vampiric Blood (or Dancing Rune Weapon if they change it) or Dark Transformation this percentage is doubled making it 20% per strike up to 100%. This would have a likely drastic effect in PvP especially as it would make enemy players wary of the DK at anytime but extremely wary in the windows where the DK is under the effects of Dark Transformation/Vampiric Blood or Dancing Rune Weapon (If swapped)

It would add a very interesting additional PET concept to the San’layn Heroic DK for both Blood and Unholy and could add some very interesting PvP flavor with other players and classes with be wary of and fear.

Just an idea not sure what others think

Sadly, based on what I heard in interviews (I watched it for all classes released) It seems they are not really adding any new active abilities from what I see. I do like this concept though. Or should I say, game changing actives.

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Yeah I heard that as well however, one could easily argue that technically the replacement Strike for San’Layn DK’s is actually an active ability. As it replaces Heart Strike for Blood DK and Scourge Strike for Unholy DK when it’s triggered by the new Heroic Talent Vampiric Strike passively when the DK uses either Death Coil (Unholy) or Death Strike (Blood).
If you consider the fact that it is initially a 10% chance to trigger Vampiric Strike and the DK wanting to actively use the replaced ability every time it is available; it does essentially equate to an ACTIVE ability. While it is essentially passively triggered the DK is actively going to make the effort to use Vampiric Strike when available over a Heart Strike or a Scourge Strike.

So taking that in to consideration one could easily argue that they are actually adding active abilities but just replacing other abilities to achieve it

Thanks…I would say that they could make this essentially be an additional element or modification to Unholy Frenzy for Unholy DK’s and Dancing Rune Weapon for Blood DK; as they are not adding a new active ability but merely adding some additional effects to current ones in the same way Vampiric Strike is effecting Scourge Strike and Heart Strike.

Not sure what you think about that but it does fit the format that they are using for Heroic Talents and abilities.

I feel this would be something that would make San’Layn DK’s especially Unholy ones feared in PvP by all other classes and players. They would actively be wary of the DK when Unholy Frenzy is active and doubly so if Dark Transformation is active during these windows if you keep the concept of the chance being doubled within Dark Transformation periods.
You know other players are going to want to avoid the DK during those windows especially so while they are offensive abilities it does give them a very significant defensive potential as well. Which provides the DK with a much needed option in PvP to make them a class that other classes want to get away from during certain windows vs what we seen essentially now of not having to worry at all provided there is the healing throughput to overcome the DPS throughput during burst windows for the DK. It would become the enemy players wanting to not engage with the DK if at all possible and if not trying to get distance or away from the DK at the first opportunity and not engage directly until that window is over.

I would be all for it. I want new fun things to play with. Especially with how stale blood has been. Same gameplay loop for how many xpacs now…

Them being reluctant to add new skills has me worried. Rider of the apocalypse sounds really cool, but I will be honest, I’ll be disappointed if we don’t get a cool undead horse to ride in combat. At least that is what people are expecting I think.

2 Likes

Another option that could be part of the Rider of the Apocalypse is that the DK is the actual ‘Rider’ themselves but instead various abilities are modified or changed to trigger or potentially trigger the summoning of a Rider of the Apocalypse to come to their aid for a given duration.

Essentially it would be similar to the Deathknight Epic Torghast Anima Power called The Horseman’s Call which changed the function of Death’s Gate to summon a mounted DK pet for the abilities duration on a 10 minute cooldown - Linked it below for details

IMHO this is another option as a possible philosophy they might use for the Heroic Talent Design used for Rider of the Apocalypse build instead of what most people are thinking. It provides the same basis and flavor however, it is not changing the DK as drastically as a modification to become mounted etc. which does seem outside the scope of the design philosophy they mentioned in this interview.

Not sure what you think but this seems more logical to me that anything else in terms of Rider of the Apocalypse as it is something that they have technically play tested previously to some degree and have a decent amount of feedback on what can be modified or tweaked with the Torghast power to entwine it in another way with other various DK abilities.

Just my 2 cents

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Some additional feedback after rewatching the paladin video.

It was mentioned that players should feel like they are not losing their classes identity.
I feel for most classes that term fits, but for DK it does not. Death Knight currently does not feel like a class as a whole. The subclasses play so differently from each other and have very little similarities they could be considered classes of their own.

I ask, what is death knight Identity? If you look at WOTLK compared to now, it is night and day with what DKs feel like they are supposed to be. Besides the feedback I gave earlier (which does have me excited) I urge the dev team to please make strides for more unpruning and reworking death knights to actually feel like it. Currently we feel like a watered down version of what once was, and each subclass spec feels like their own class individually, but with glaring issues that need to be fixed. I think if we as fans and as players want to give meaningful feedback, then changes need to be made across the board, and not just for hero talents, but our base kit in general and how things play. Although I am excited for the hero talents, I would rather know real changes are being made to our base kits across the board.

I genuinely enjoy blood death knight right now, the issue many have with being locked to DnD is largely irrelevant once you get the hang of it. This whole tree looks super fun for blood.

For Unholy though it feels weird since it’ll make you hit outbreak more often than anyone would really want, this isnt a problem for blood since we use blood boil off cd anyways so it’s largely irrelevant. If diseases were applied passively by things the UH dk did like by epidemic or by your ghoul then this would feel pretty nice but as things stand it just feels bad.

I know many others in this thread have already said this but a rework for DK would be incredibly beneficial to making any hero talent tree feel better as with how things stand with both dps dk specs there are quite a few issues that cant be patched over with a few extra passive talents.

5 Likes

This tree definitely seems better optimized for Blood. Unholy’s priorities in ability use - RP spending for gargoyle, the lower prioritization of use of its disease application ability, and the pain of standing in D&D for buffs/AoE - make it seem like it was a secondary consideration here.

There are ways to remedy this. The disease purge problem would be a lot lessened, for example, if disease application was built into Death Coil (and maybe refreshed by Epidemic if you want some slight nuance), abilities that UH hits anyway rotationally. I love Outbreak thematically - a ranged disease application ability that then spreads to targets around it is awesome! - but it practice it does so little damage outside of a particular build that bringing it into the core rotation would indeed suck.

Anyway, things to consider.

Dont bring up Frost DK in this thread, its a Blood / Unholy thread with San’layn being the main focus. This doesnt pertain to the thread so it should be ignored.

Someone didnt read the blue post

1 Like

I can only assume that you are saying I didnt read the blue post.

Go ahead and explain because San’layn is only for Blood / Unholy and is just passives so anyone talking about Frost in this case has failed to follow directions.

When its the first Blue post in this forums in literally 1.5yrs, it is natural for disgruntled players to air their gripes hoping for visibility.

You derail more than anybody. You should be the last person gatekeeping threads.

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Blizzard wants to know the players opinions on the hero tree. That includes which abilities talents will affect, how they will affect, what they do, etc.

So yes, giving feedback on Frost is perfectly fine because, if these trees are any indication, there will be DND gameplay in the other two, which is a huge negative for DPS DKs, which Frost is one of.

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Frost is not in this pass so no its not.

Keep lying.

Gatekeeping how? Talk about delusional. Go ahead and talk about San’layn. I think its boring and Blood Beasts are just Blood Worms.

This feedback will focus mostly on “how the talents will play and impact rotation/gameplay” and “how these new talents would affect existing talents”. The perspective is from a Blood Death Knight who primarily does Mythic+ Tank Theorycrafting for the specialization and higher-end Mythic+.

Vampiric Strike + Incite Terror + Gift of the San’layn

The 10-15% base proc rate is relatively low, especially compared to the 100% heart strike conversion rate during Vampiric Blood with the capstone. When also considering the additional 100% effectiveness during Vampiric Blood, the benefits are highly concentrated around our cooldown window (and the spillover buff duration after the cooldown window is over). The full talent tree indicates that the buff probably functions like Festermight (or maybe Iron Fur) with regards to stacking and refreshing (given the Incite Terror node). If it functioned with normal stacking and refreshing rules, it would be possible to maintain 100% uptime at full stacks with the full tree active given the potential cooldown and uptime of Vampiric Blood when the appropriate talents are taken, which is a good time to mention the synergy with Red Thirst and Improved Vampiric Blood in the baseline Blood tree; these two talents are staples in Mythic+ content, but see more limited use in Raid content, though, given the lack of meaningful talent decisions in the Blood tree for raid, creating a few more significant talent nodes wouldn’t hurt.

The marginal 3% maximum health heal is relatively insignificant for Blood (but flavorful), while a single Vampiric Strike providing 1.5% haste for 20 seconds has more of a real impact. Granted, given the normal Death Strike vs. Heart Strike vs. Blood Boil considerations with the Blood rotation, the nodes are unlikely to alter the core rotation unless purposefully wasting RP for more Vampiric Strike throughput becomes preferable to the normal pattern of prioritizing Death Strike throughput over Heart Strike throughput.

Turning an otherwise purely defensive cooldown (Vampiric Blood) into an offensive cooldown is something that might not be a good thing in certain aspects. But if we are assuming 2/2 Red Thirst, it can be a short enough cooldown that maybe it won’t be bothersome to play. However, this would make our two strongest defensive cooldowns also being tied to significant offensive benefits. Some could argue this was in place for the patch 10.1 tier set bonus, but that was a relatively trivial offensive benefit.

It is also worth noting that, depending on how the buff stacking and refreshing works, this creates something of a haste positive feedback loop; proc rates increase with haste, haste increases with more proc rates, and effective extension increases with haste. It also boosts the effectiveness of the haste-scaling part of our kit, in general, relative to the non-haste scaling portion. Probably not anything on the level of Shadowlands Season 3 or 4 Blood Death Knight, but it is worth pointing out.

Newly Turned or Vampiric Speed

As Blood, using Raise Ally has a few pain points, at times. (1) The tank’s position isn’t always the best place to spawn, (2) using a global cooldown for 30 RP without any personal healing can indirectly kill you (a BDK’s RP bar is their second health bar), and (3) some specializations can resurrect allies at higher health levels. A 20% shield is better than nothing, even if it isn’t even close to the healing of the lost Death Strike, while healing an ally at full health completely removes one of the potential disadvantages listed above. So, this is a decent quality of life talent, though as Blood I would still rather someone else perform the battle res if I am in any personally dangerous situation. The loss of a Death Strike in dangerous situations is still a steep price to pay if it can be avoided. This is also the only talent that I’m going to pick on for having a name that can probably be improved (Maybe something transfusion related, instead? I’m more of a math guy, so someone could probably think up something cleverer than me).

Vampiric Speed is a nice solid utility bonus. There is little else to say about it and, unless you are the only battle res available in your group or are in a PvE situation where movement speed has little value, I suspect this will largely be the option taken.

Blood-Soaked Ground

A talent node similar to Sanguine Ground and Unholy Ground. The dynamic of standing in ground effects for buffs is something that is a little divisive in the greater death knight community, to say the least. There’s certainly some amount of skill expression involved, but I think it is fair to say that people are never a huge fan of feeling like their player movement is excessively being constrained, particularly on melee classes. I don’t think there is any special insight I can provide on this topic that you won’t hear elsewhere, it’s a mechanic that never really feels particularly satisfying when any forced movement is involved, even if I’m not bothered by it too much personally.

Vampiric Aura or Bloody Fortitude

The reintroduction of a weaker form of Vampiric Aura from Legion is interesting, though the personal 3% passive leech means little for Blood. Still, it could be a decent group healing cooldown in Mythic+ content. This has some amount of synergy with Unholy Endurance from the baseline class talent tree.

The exact mechanics of Bloody Fortitude are a little uncertain with regards to the damage reduction, though Icebound Fortitude is basically your third-string defensive cooldown as a Blood Death Knight since its total uptime is very low at baseline. The cooldown reduction doesn’t change the situation much even in Mythic+. Even if we assumed a 15 second cooldown reduction every minute, that is still a weaker version of Acclimation from the class tree and doesn’t fundamentally change defensive usage. This also assumes we get cooldown reduction from enemies we don’t get the killing blow on, which is, unfortunately, not how Death’s Reach is currently working in the baseline talent tree. “Killing enemies” bonuses have a habit of not being particularly useful, but, if we did want to make a competitive effect, we would at least want to make sure that you don’t need the killing blow, itself, to get the bonus (Adjusting Death’s Reach to work this way would be nice, too). This has some amount of synergy with Acclimation from the baseline talent tree.

This is a more ambiguous choice node, which is probably a good thing.

Infliction of Sorrow

The parity between how this operates with and without Gift of the San’layn active is a bit odd.

Baseline, this allows for the player to accelerate and amplify Blood Plague damage (healing too?) on all targets hit with Vampiric Strike, which puts a gameplay emphasis on reapplying Blood Plague whenever it is consumed given the large damage increase potential. Proc rates are likely low enough in this mode where we will be able to reapply Blood Plague pretty reliably after consuming it. It’s not impossible you would want to refresh Blood Plague going into a Vampiric Strike (and then reapplying it shortly after) depending on overall resource dynamics (especially with the added rune regeneration from a later node), but something like that is hard to predict without tool updates. In any case, fishing for more damage throughput in this manner is going to negatively impact the player’s RP economy, though the exact tradeoff we are looking at here is not known at this time.

During Gift of the San’layn, the immediate bonus damage done is significantly less and provides less pressure to reapply Blood Plague in general. I’m wondering if this is even preferable, throughput-wise, to the full Blood Plague consumption with more damage, though the alternate where we consume Blood Plague faster than we are capable of re-applying it through Blood Plague would have its own oddities.

In both cases, this increases the value of Rapid Decomposition and Coagulopathy (due to their increased Blood Plague damage), which are two talents that are currently taken all of the time in all content mostly due to Coagulopathy’s high power level and weak pathing competition.

Frenzied Bloodthirst

The increased stack count doesn’t change any of the previous discussion, while the increased Death Strike damage doesn’t do much gameplay-wise and only has obvious side-effects such as increasing the value of RP generation and Death Strike damage-scaling talents (Runic Attenuation, Empower Rune Weapon, Heartbreaker, Bloodshot, Ossuary, Improved Death Strike, Hemostasis).

The Blood is Life + Pact of the San’layn

Well, pets are thematic to Unholy and Blood has Bloodworms, so I guess a fusion doesn’t hurt theme-wise. No real gameplay implications baseline, while talent implications are minimal.

Pact of the San’layn, when taken, does give an added incentive to increase shadow damage throughput for the appropriate window. If Bonestorm ever saw the light of day again (which could easily be a separate discussion), there may be some incentive to line it up with a Blood Beast; a similar story to Abomination Limb, except Abomination Limb actually sees use right now. Depending on the tuning, this would make Abomination Limb, Bonestorm, Shattering Bone, Soul Reaper, and Coagulopathy stronger in the baseline talent trees to some extent. But without more information it is hard to say just how important these “shadow damage pet bomb” windows might be and how much we would play around them.

Visceral Regeneration

Blood Death Knight has very minimal rotational downtime, to the point where it doesn’t take too much additional resource regeneration (through baseline talents or otherwise) to have more than we are able to spend. In most situations, excess resources means we are mostly dropping Blood Boils from the rotation. So, with more rune regeneration (a potentially significant amount), we’ll be gaining more Heart Strikes (and subsequently Death Strikes), while losing Blood Boils. This isn’t necessarily a bad thing (and Blood would never fully drop Blood Boil usage), but something to keep in mind.

Similar to the 10.0 tier set bonus, this has downstream implications of buffing talents mostly related to Heart Strike, Death Strike, and Rune taxing talents (Heartbreaker, Improved Heart Strike, Rune Tap, Bloodshot, and Heartrend) and nerfing talents related to Blood Boil as well as further rune regeneration (Hemostasis and Blood Tap). Nothing crazy, but downstream effects nonetheless.

Sanguine Scent

It is hard to say which effect of this talent is more impactful off-hand or how this compares to Pact of the San’layn. A 25-30% proc rate on Death Strike is still low relative to what we are getting in Vampiric Blood windows as far as Vampiric Strike throughput is concerned, so, chances are, the guaranteed critical strikes is the main perk here. Likely no major gameplay implications and this only ends up buffing Heart Strike related talents for the most part.

Summary and Opinions

I think this hero class likely meets any class fantasy/thematic goals. The main gameplay considerations appear to be the effects of loading more rune regeneration into Blood/Unholy (For Blood this generally means less Blood Boils and more Heart Strikes/Death Strikes), which is counterbalanced with DoT consumption considerations from Infliction of Sorrow (which might draw out more Blood Boil casts despite elevated Rune levels). Existing concerns with buff effects tied to standing in Death and Decay are still on the table. Turning a purely defensive cooldown (Vampiric Blood) into something with offensive perks might be something to keep an eye on, since sometimes that can work fine and sometimes less so. The effects on the valuation of the baseline talents are likely major in a few places, most obviously with anything Vampiric Blood related. Meanwhile, the kit is also somewhat biased in favor of haste, whether intentional or not.

My personal opinions on this hero class are somewhat dependent on how the stacking/extending mechanic works with the main buff, so more information on that would be nice to know. But the idea of having a hero class for blood centered on haste- and rune-empowerment with DoT interactions doesn’t seem too bad. It just makes me wonder what the differentiating factors are going to be between San’layn and Deathbringer from a Blood perspective. So, in a lot of ways, it might be easier to provide feedback on San’layn after seeing Deathbringer (and vice versa).

3 Likes

Blood and unholy get extra defensives frost doesnt.
again.