Feedback: Conduit of the Celestials Monk

Classes Monk
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My initial thoughts

-Celestial Conduit: Damage scaling at 6% per extra target is going to make this feel real weak as a cooldown for aoe, unless its broken strong in single target. Healing range is way too short for an important cooldown. Most healing cooldowns were increased in dragonflight to 30 or 40 yards, please do the same here.

-Heart of the jade serpent: Please change this to activate with X stacks of mana tea so that this tree doesn’t auto lock Sheiluns. The less auto lock talents the better even if most people will take them anyway.

-Niuzaos Protection: Now that talents have different values per spec can Fort brew finially get a shorter base cooldown for WW and weavers? Cooldown is way too long for how good it is for the amount of points it costs.

-Strength of the black ox: Would be nice if this could stack 2 times for mistweaver for instant mists

-Chi-ji’s Swiftness: Does this work with celestial summons or just hero tree assists? If it doesn’t work with base tree summons it would be nice if it did.

-Refreshing/rushing jade wind: refreshing jade wind has a range and tunning vs mistwrap problem. WW rotation is too full for for rushing jade wind in its current form. Maybe the choice node could be rushing jade wind activates during xuen or during fists of fury. Alternatively rushing needs a lot of tunning and synergy changes to fit, or maybe just a much longer duration/cooldown. IE increase the duration and cooldown of rushing jade wind by 10 seconds+. That would only make it less anoying and not good though.

**-August Dynasty:**Jadefire stomp is a much better feeling ability for MW than WW. If the WW one worked more like the MW one it would be much less maligned. 20 second cooldown, 30 second duration, 12% damage while you’re standing in it or for 8 seconds after you leave. No one likes stand in your patch to do bonus effects in wow but at least this version would be much less painful than the current live one for WW.

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[WW pve pov]

I second mostly negative feedback within this thread towards incorporating RJW. Wish it enhanced WDP interactions rather than RJW.
If we’re sticking with this, then it is in dire need of adjustments.

  • “Restore Balance” - 1 RJW every 2 minutes is somewhat laughable, even if “Fury of Xuen” triggers it too. This seems like it should either activate from something else too or have omega amplifiers i.e. RJW activated through Xuen slaps N times more or have other effects.
  • “Yu’lon’s Knowledge” - really strange decision here to go this route. RJW is a maintenance buff overbloating rotation and competing with other aoe chi spenders. Seems logical that it would last longer/do more dmg, but have longer cd rather than this. Need to make this ability feel good to press, this is not it.

“Conduit celestial” “split evenly among them” part is yuck, especially if it is potent enough, where it feels bad when damage does not go into primary targets in yuge aoe. Same goes for “Flight of the red Crade”. Niuzao assist is “reduced beyond 5 targets”, but this one capped at 5. I understand that Ox one is aoe stomp and this one is crack bird pecking enemies individually visually, but could peck as cleave, now that’s actually cracked.

Overall, I’m ok with the concept of 4 celestials aiding you, but wish it had more interactions with your spec celestial. Xuen is already powerful cd, so not enhancing that further, but anything else e.g.: “Courage of the White Tiger” - calls “Fury of Xuen” mini xuen, xuen cdr, “Fury of Xuen” enhancements in general etc.

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For Mistweavers this tree seems really great and quite fun.

My only concern is that with so many of these trees summoning helper adds, the visual clutter of the game might skyrocket.

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As I’ve read more about this tree I’ve had some more thoughts:

  • I initially misread quite a few things about this tree - but I think largest of them being that the capstone tree doesn’t spawn each of the celestials (per the spec cooldowns) but rather just triggers the tree’s various procs of them. This is a bit less cool, depending on how long they stick around, but felt like the tooltip could be a bit more clear what “assist” means

  • Does Heart of the Jade Serpent for Windwalker halve cooldowns of associated abilities or remove them entirely? I assume it only halves it because that’d make Whirling Dragon Punch uncastable… Again, just a point where it could be a little more clear.

  • The capstone feels like a way of offsetting the feels bad of a 4s long channel by adding an extra global during the cast - but I can’t imagine a world where you’d want to activate during the cast specifically for Heart of the Jade Serpent. The other celestials essentially proc damage and / or healing, but Yuo’lon gives a short duration buff. If you activate this during early parts of the channel, you are effectively throwing away some of that buff?

  • It is weird to me that MW can control when to active Heart of the Jade Serpent and it’s entirely passive for WW? I can’t imagine there’s enough power here, but it could feel miserable to have it proc when something like Invoke Xuen is going to be available in 10 seconds. I’d hate to have to stop playing just to get the timing of this right.

  • Inner Compass feels really bad the more I think about it. Since Niuzao always procs after Xuen do we never gain the benefits of Tiger Stance? I can also imagine situations where you’re trying to force one stat and then all of a sudden you get a Yuo’lon Proc or a Xeun (into Niuzao) proc.

  • My earlier points of cooldown bloat (especially for WW) remain.

In general, I do like this tree for MW, but it is incredibly disappointing for WW.

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It’s basically serenity i think.

It will reduce the cd by half, but without reducing the cost.

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Here are some things that Essence Font Currently provides for the player, if it were to be removed.

  1. 8-15% haste through the use of Thunder Focus Tea, which also provides significant healing at the same time.
  2. Anyone affected by Essence Font has Gust of Mists cast on them twice.
  3. Gives us Fist Weavers another option when Jadefire Stomp is not available to continue our ancient teachings (fixed by lowering Jadefire stomps cooldown to 10 seconds, just lower the initial amount of healing)

If you can address these issues, I’m more than ok with Essence Font going away.

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the entire tree is dead on arrival in pvp if these 4-8s channels are interruptible. and if the other tree is caster-focused, it kills FW in pvp.

these things need to be uninterruptable to be useful at all.

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I actually love the Conduit of the Celestials Hero talents. Thematically this is what I always wanted my monk to invoke. It was such a shame to have each spec influenced/able to call upon only 1 or 2 celestial(looking at you MW).
The Problem I have is that the feedback being provided is based on how the spec(s) are ‘now’ with the hero talents and not how the specs might be reworked to better interact with the said Hero talents in TWW. The community needs to stop thinking in terms of the former. However, this problem was created by blizz, but perhaps that was their intent so as to ‘start a conversation’. When it comes to specs and spec designing “Context is King” so both parties need to keep that in mind in the ongoing discussions to keep things from flying off the rails too much.

Keep up the good work devs and please provide more context as soon as your able to keep the fires to a minimum on the forums.

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Our imaginations are def going to run wild about the first and last talent of Hero talents. It hard for us to understand fully what the devs have conceptualized for how this spell works or will work with whatever class/spec tree rework is in the pipeline. All the tooltips have been rewritten to exclude any sort of damage values so that they could share what they could about the class fantasy of the hero talents I’d reckon. but you do raise some interesting points.

Another good point. Here’s to hoping WW gets a button to activate once the 30 chi have been consumed. but to be fair, Balance druid has a similar mechanic in Orbit Breaker, they don’t actually get to control when that Full moon will fall after the 30th shooting star either. Primordial Arcanic Pulsar (another balance druid talent) that pops Celestial alignment (double eclipse) after spending 600 astral power from using Starfire/Starfall. Balances druids can hold off on spending astral power to trigger the proc at the risk of capping on resources. Perhaps, Heart of the Jade Serpent can be reworked to have a function similar to that. like " your next x button use within 12sec after the 30 chi will proc HotJS" that way we cant just hold onto it forever, has to be some give and take. maybe tie it to chi burst/chi wave or expel harm but I rather chi burst/chi wave to give more of a reason to cast them.

Now, this one is trickey. I totally see the issues you have raised with this and I have to agree. Pehaps one fix would be that these stances have a timer associated with them to last y secs.,so that we can actually benefit from tiger stance. It would be unnatural to hold using Bok simply because you want that crit buff to last longer so if they all last a few sec, and we are just cycling our rotation, it could have the potential to have all 4 stances/buffs up at the same time and proper play would reward you with the buffs continually refreshing.

I dont agree that the spec is disappointing for WW. We just don’t have all the facts. But I do understand how you or others might feel currently. Keep hope alive.

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This might make ww scale well with haste which makes sense since it shares a tree with MW.

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dont they just need to let auto attacks persist through FoF and SCK, etc

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For context I am arguably the best PvE WW in the world and have done TC/etc for the spec for many years now.

Flavor:

Celestial empowerment is good flavor and I can appreciate the martial vs spiritual dichotomy for WW. Good execution there imo.

Celestial Conduit:

Two things. First off, this being a channel is a bit strange. Lengthy channels are already annoying for WW in regards to performing kicks/cc’s while also managing FoF. Additionally having an opener where your first global is just channeling something for 4 seconds is a bit strange. The extra bind is also an annoyance so having it just be combined with the celestial summon seems more interesting imo.

Secondly - The poor target scaling is pretty unfortunate. WW already benefits very little from targets >5 which contributes pretty heavily to the current mediocrity in dungeon content. If this is intended to do damage it doesnt seem meaningful on multitarget, and if it isnt intended to do significant damage im not sure why adding an extra limiter is necessary.

Temple Training/Xuen’s Guidance

Please stop buffing tiger palm. Also, Temple Training is vastly numerically superior and ToTM has minimal kit interaction so we dont particularly care if its reset or not. This is just flat dmg vs flat dmg.

Courage of the White Tiger

Sure whatever, just make sure this is RPPM so Serenity isn’t randomly screwed over.

Restore Balance/Yulon’s Knowledge

Cool concept, but RJW is utterly atrocious for WW. I’d honestly prefer this wasn’t a choice node and RJW was buffed and you might get some interesting use cases. On the flip side, WW does not have much room for additional binds and this tree already comes with a bind. Please consider removing buttons such as Stomp/BdB/Statue to free up more interesting CD’s and button presses. This node also needs some help via another node which I’ll mention shortly. Additionally if there was some way to compress RJW into SCK that’d be a neat effect.

Heart Of The Jade Serpent

Cool idea but seems a bit more MW focused? Hard for us to spend a bunch of CDR without Serenity in the normal rotation. Does create more burts and lulls outside CD’s but this is really just about lining up with Serenity (which is done automatically thankfully via later nodes). No complaints currently but I could see it being a little degenerate. I do appreciate the additional resource dumping angle though.

As a note however, WDP CDR is effectively worthless as significant RSK/FoF CDR makes it not castable. RSK CD can go below the GCD which makes WDP legitimately impossible to press. Please reconsider making RJW get the CDR which opens up an AoE niche with Serenity or have SCK proc RJW

Additionally, when Strike CD is sufficiently short Thunderfist stacks start being overwritten and/or expiring with 2h weapons. Please take a look at thunderfist so this edge case stops occuring. Thanks

Strength of the Black Ox

Sure why not.

Flight of the Red Crane

I dig this. Be cool if it wasn’t RPPM and just flat chance to incentivize RJW stacking as a neat little gameplay loop (assuming RJW doesn’t feel bad to press on it’s own). Be cool if it wasn’t 5t tho. Having some kind of uncapped damage would be nice if others can have it.

Niuzhao Protection/Jade Sanctuary

Fort brew is plenty fine as a CD for living, the CD of it is just absurd. As a result Jade Sanctuary is probably the only one worth taking which is still a bit weird. I think this is a bit of a miss.

Chi-Ji’s Swiftness

Cool, all that needs to be said

Inner Compass/August Dynasty

I like inner compass but 3% is perhaps a bit mediocre? Also be cool if it flared up or something and you got numerous? This could be a really nice talent simply for the visuals if you can add an effect.

August Dynasty is a dissapointment. I really didn’t have an issue with Stomp until this current tier. Even Aberrus when people started complaining as Rune of Power got removed I thought it was fine. At this point, if you design fights like Smolderon/tindral/Fyrakk it feels atrocious to use stomp. The ability is nice as MW, but has no place on a CD focused hypermobile melee. This tree is giving me additional movement I can’t even use because I’m stuck in a stomp. Given it is one part of a choice node I don’t see how this couldn’t be changed to something else. Also without changes this would probably just be the default for WW in 1-3t or so by a significant margin and make Stomp even MORE important that it’s current 15% dps contribution. I would not like a positional buff being responsible for >20% of my damage thanks.

Unity Within

This being castable early is weird. For WW the CDR benefit is massive so we would simply never cast early unless mobs are going to die. Given we’d sync this with serenity thatd be really strange, so I don’t see it ever happening outside of misclicks. 3 of the celestials are just “do damage” so it seems like cancelling is more of a MW specific panic heal thing? Even then I’d assume it’d feel bad for MW to cancel early given they’d be stuck channeling?

I feel like a clean alternative is reducing channel time here and just giving the buff upon expiry, or once again tying the buffs to the celestials themselves. The WW opener will feel a bit strange given all the necessary presses (This/Xuen/Serenity/stomp/Tigerpalm) and the disparate durations. You have an opener thats probably like statue->xuen->stomp->this->tp->ser+rsk->strike->rsk

That encompasses 7 button presses before getting to rotational abilities and about 9-10 seconds. WW already has a problem with snap damage compared to others, so some compression would be really appreciateded.

Once again please consider removing all/a mix of Skyreach/Stomp/BdB/Statue to free up binds and globals for more interesting ideas such as this.

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Auto attacks would be nice but “scaling” as a concept is not particularly relevant these days and auto attacks are not a primary difference maker there.

The only real downside is when using 2h weapons Thunderfist stacks can expire.

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Another Button on the pile

Agree.

RJW interaction

Presumably there is tuning here as the ability is functionally worthless currently. Can pretty easily just make haste up the tick rate and have duration be flat then buff base values. Would make stacking it somewhat meaningful in AoE if the CD was reduced instead of WDP (which doesn’t fit at all if we are reducing FoF/RSK cd frequently as well as likely running serenity given synergies). I don’t think RJW conceptually has issues beyond being undertuned and another keybind.

Say RJW provided MotC stacks again and did meaningful uncapped damage - it’d be good filler vs bok in AoE

Jadefire Stomp Interaction

You’d press it about the same as currently I’d imagine anyways based on rough math. Do agree FLS is an issue tho. Wish the effect was simply baked into RSK (RSK explodes increasing damage dealt to targets → more combo focused and relevant in aoe as an alternative to SCK buffing talents.)

Unity Within

I think you misunderstood this one? During the channel you can re-press to get your assists (3 of them do dmg, 1 gives CDR). Otherwise it auto casts. The reason to cast early I believe is for snap dmg/healing from celestials while wasting some CDR given you are in a channel. The CDR effect is pretty huge for a follow up serenity, so I believe you just would never cancel ideally

Heart of the Jade Serpent

Somewhat agree, but at the same time resource constraints make it not a huge deal. Should definitely track which is a slight annoyance and would be preferable if the interaction was more ability empowerment vs CDR, but not a huge deal given most of the value is the auto proc on demand

Scaling

Fair point. Presumably RPPM hasted or flat scaling so haste/crit/vers taken care of. Mastery is the main ?

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Didn’t read the whole thread but from a quick glance we’re till upset about the current iteration of FoF, I propose that a change to how it works.

Instead of a hard channel, change it to a 5.5 second duration buff, 5 casts and a extra 0.5 sec to account for lag, during which all our attacks become a frontal cone AoE.
With this change we can atleast eliminate the con of not being able to kick mid channle with the added downside of gettting carpal tunnel.
Or atleast make it a choice node and let us choose which iteration of FoF we want to use.

And for the love of the titan order please stop forcing statues down our throats.

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Its moot to talk about all these hero talents as it relates to the ‘current’ class/spec trees. We don’t have all the facts. We don’t know what’s getting added, what’s getting removed, or what’s being tweaked? its a bit asinine to talk in such finite terms when we don’t even know if the WW/MW of tomorrow will be anything like the WW/MW of today. It doesn’t matter if anyone is “arguably the best” so as to try to lend credence to their post. When we know more and possibly can play test things, we can then have more finite discussions about xy spell/interaction/feedback loop. Lets keep the conversation moving but lets not bog down the work that has already been presented with wild inferences based on ‘current’ monk. Its ok to generalize, even speculate, maybe even theorize to a degree, anymore then that is a waste. Let’s see where the chips fall on the information we currently yet do not know to talk in more defined terms. I doubt any of the info presented will change until it comes time to playtest or see the full class/spec reworks on paper at the very least.

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Looking at this tree from the perspective of WW, and the start looks grim. I’m just gonna open by saying it’s wild that the hero talent tree got released before we got our regular trees fixed and addressed.

Celestial Conduit

Another CD that WW does not need. Greaaaaat. This feels like we just ripped off Shifting Power from Mage.

Temple Training/Xuen’s Guidance

Buff our AoE or RNG TotM stacks + TP buff. This feels like it’s supposed to be an ST vs AoE choice pick, but the ST pick feels like it’s missing a zero.

Heart of the Jade Serpent

Mini “burst” window every 30 Chi. I don’t like that this adds a background thing to track. This also raises concerns with Serenity like will spenders we use during Serenity count to this? And how busted will this be if it lines up with Serenity which is another whole can of worms because then it might lead to people playing to line the two up and that just sounds like it’s not going to be fun.

Niuzao’s Protection/Jade Sanctuary

Niuzao’s Protection is just an SL conduit that’s been rebranded and does not belong on the hero talent tree. Chuck it onto main monk class tree when you rework it. There’s also the concern about Fort Brew CD which is another fix the main monk class tree issue.

Jade Sanctuary feels underwhelming for what it does tacked onto Celestial Conduit. It’s a slightly better expel harm + 15% DR for 4 seconds (8 with the capstone) on a 1.5min CD in a world where we have access to Diffuse Magic and Dampen Harm.

Courage of the White Tiger

RNG damage and healing proc. Not particularly impressive. Mild concern it might break CCs. Might be an issue if it does a lot of damage.

Strength of the Black Ox

Wording unclear. Is this after you Invoke Xuen or based off of Courage of the White Tiger? If it’s the former, then this needs to get sent back to the drawing board. If it’s the latter, why more RNG damage?

Chi-Ji’s Swiftness

25% sprint during the 4 second (8 seconds with capstone) channel and RNG 25% sprints. Why not just make it a flat 20% movement speed increase? Why add layers when you could make something blunt and consistent?

Restore Balance/Yu’lon’s Knowledge

So we either also have our own little AoE aura to match Xuen when he’s up or we have to talent into RJW. Yu’lon’s Knowledge has potential, but RJW needs changes first. Otherwise, this talent just feels underwhelming, and will feel annoying to play.

Flight of the Red Crane

More RNG damage. WW does not need more RNG damage. We already playing slots with DoCJ procs for AoE damage. Please don’t add another.

Inner Compass/August Dynasty

I think we need more clarification on how Inner Compass will pick a Celestial. Is it going to be based around Flight of the Red Crane or will our celestial buff be based around what happens during the Celestial Conduit channel? 3% also feels low.

August Dynasty is going to make a lot of WWs sad just by virtue of including FLS/JFS. I don’t like that we still have to play around FLS/JFS, and it’s one of the issues that should have been resolved first by fixing our talent trees. That said, I can appreciate that it amps the next Rising Sun Kick as opposed to making it timed buff.

Unity Within

Cool we can channel longer now, and I don’t like it because it feels like Celestial Conduit’s output is going to be balanced around being an 8 second channel now which might reduce how strong it is.

Overall Thoughts

This tree feels like it was made for MW instead of WW. I don’t like leaning more into RNG procs. At the end of the day, it’s another CD on class that has a lot of them already. These trees definitely should have been made AFTER fixing the monk talent trees.

As for ways to improve the tree, I’d reduce/straight up remove all the RNG procs from it first. Then make the keystone talent based around augmenting or adding Celestials to the default celestial the spec summons with the capstone allowing us to summon all the Celestials (like from torghast).

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I really hope you mean removed from the talent tree and made baseline, not removed from the game.

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The “recast” part of it keeps being taken too literally: it’s still a 4 second channel, you just have a bonus button to press during it to summon the Celestial assistance or have it automatically done when it ends.

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Balance druid already has this mechanic with “Primordial Arcanic Pulsar” spend 600 AP get free double eclipse for 12 sec. They also get free procs of Starsurge/Starfall(AP spenders) via ‘starweaver’ talent that don’t consume AP and their cost(while free) still count towards reaching 600AP to proc double eclipse. This is not new for blizz. So if serenity is a button we get to keep in TWW. It would for sure count(assuming all things being equal) but I digress on that point. just wanted to point it out in case you don’t know boomkin’s kit.