- This discussion between taking pet surv and “utility” is mute. Either one doesn’t add anything to the dmg meters of the spec.
- Bombs have never been a dps loss on ST and will certainly do more dmg than SS, which again requires a ranged weapon. I HATE how blizz is trying to force KS into everything we do. You HAVE to use KC, idk where you get that bs from. Plus, once again, ranged weapons.
- I have expicitly stated that the builds were meant to bring awareness to how piss poor our capstones are. It doesnt matter if the build isnt viable, its about showing blizz that the capstones are not strong enough. SH, for example, only increases pet dmg, RS/MS dmg and KC resets. CA’s only buff is INCREASING BOMB DMG FROM PET BASIC ATTACKS. That means CA is worthless to ST builds. Spending 2 MORE points basically removes BOMB cds and makes KS spammable. NEITHER of these capstones increase overall dmg, increase any secondary stats, increase attack speed, OR buff the opposite build. SH is worthless for bombs and CA is worthless for RS/MS.
Bomb Infusion is HUGE in dps terms. IDK where you get that bs. Again, I hate viper venom, but they just HAD to put it there. In my build you see that I had taken CA, which buffs BOMBS. Therefore the primary build of the tree is BOMBS. THEN, i went down the right side of the tree. Because the capstones are so bad, there is no reason to burn the points when you can buff your spender. I DID choose CA, although it does almost NOTHING without ruthless and even then its only good with CA up.
Finally, range is a convenience, and I am not willing to waste points on it. Make it 5 or 6 yards then it might be worth a point, but not 3.
Since day one alpha we know that all the talents in the class tree will be usable by survival hunters though… so what is all this talk about not being able to use it?
You go on and on about how huge this and that is without us even having had tuning/balance done. You have zero knowledge of how the tuning of the spec will be done. You just assume that bombs with infusion will be better ST damage than Spearhead which sounds delusional on a serious level since Spearhead is intended to be the capstone for ST. Do you really think they will make a talent in the AoE tree better for ST than the capstone for ST? Keep on dreaming and enjoy that build of yours.
Once again, for the 10th time, the build WAS NOT A ST BUILD.
1 Like
A thing that has been bothering me is that you can take talents at the bottom of the tree that enhance talents at the top without having to take the initial talent.
3 Likes
Another interaction that should be attainable for the pet centric Dire Beast build is Blood Frenzy It would have very good synergy.
Currently there is zero chance to get it after going the point heavy left route.
Far too many of our baseline talents have been dissected and split between multiple nodes. This is just lazy they should have been left as is and new talents Or old no longer current talents were resurrected/created to fill out our tree.
Fogged Crystal would be great Utility if it instead applied to Target of Miss-direction Like we can do in Torghast.
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ur in the wrong topic says BM not surv…start ur own topic
2 Likes
Nope says Hunter Class Talents + BM
Many Talents are usable by all 3 specs Specific would Read Hunter BM spec.
2 Likes
I’m okay with cases like that, as long as the talents at the bottom aren’t mandatory picks, just to get to something else that’s locked behind those.
Hmm, do you mean the new talent they added this week? Or the previous one called Bloody Frenzy, in the bottom right choice node? Not entirely sure what you mean here.
Also not sure which which interaction you’re speaking of. And on that note, why did they add in another talent with the name Bloody Frenzy?
Yep, agreed.
There are so many alternatives they could unlock by making the talent Dire Beast replace Barbed Shot, like in Legion, and then build a side of the tree to pursue that sub-theme. And then, for those that don’t enjoy the beast cannon thing, they could let the other side build on a barbed shot theme, closer to what we have right now on live. The capstone row of Rylakstalker/Killer Cobra is a good go-between, allowing for a blend between the two.
This is sort of what they’re doing already, but they still haven’t taken that final step and reworked Dire Beast back to what it was.
True, but then it would be beyond insane, in terms of power. If they then also heavily reduced the actual DR value, sure.
If they’re focusing on the class tree and/or the BM tree, it’s all good. I don’t necessarily mind the SV talk, but at the same time, there are probably 20 other topics on this forum that are better suited for any discussions involving SV, and the development it sees in the alpha.
2 Likes
Sorry yes the new version Bloody Frenzy Talent. Giving multiple pets Frenzy charges would be a good interaction Eh.
I can see what you mean Still I’d OK with a reduced amount to Non pet misdirection targets Probably wont happen though even a 20% damage reduction would make us Meta in M+.
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Thick Hides removed Replaced by a version of Survival of the Fittest in former TH spot ? With a choice Node for shorter cooldown or higher damage reduction. Either way a single point node now that’s good
Born to be Wild reduced to a 2 point Node and Modifies Survival of the Fittest But No notion on what the modification is ? Better be good or its still a bypass if possible Talent for BM.
Survival of the Fittest removed from Tenacity pet and replaced/renamed Fortitude of the Bear, A casted +20% Max HP to Pet and Hunter for X duration. Was a 20% damage reduction for 6 seconds.
Fogged Crystal removed gone. In one respect for farming in open world IMO it would have had a place.
Improved Tranquilizing shot reduced to 1 point node Focus from successful interrupt 5 or 10 ? not posted
The Sentinel Owl being as its not a thing just a placeholder will wait and see.
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Seems like they maybe keeping the current pet specific traits, kind of wish they went back to be able to talent your pet of choice into what specialization it is, instead of lumping pet types together into specializations with mismatched family cd’s.
One big thing id like to see them change with hunter pets, bring back pet specialization talent trees.
4 Likes
Bloody Frenzy seems so odd to me. If it was there for a more beginner talent for hunters who have trouble maintaining stacks, I feel like 2 points for only a 30% chance still isn’t that great, especially because you’re getting 2 charges from Scent of Blood. It seems like a dead talent since it’s pretty quick to get to 3 stacks and aside from misplaying, stacks don’t drop off too often.
It did lead to a fun (to me at least) idea at least: frenzy would give you a haste buff per stack and could stack up more than 3 times, but would have a reduced duration. Building up as many stacks as possible going faster and faster till it falls off would really feel like a frenzy to me (similar to shadowpriest insanity).
I would also love the option for the old legion dire beast option instead. I think your idea of having the first option of the BM tree a choice between old dire beast and barbed shot (and subsequently changing the relevant talents based on your choice) would be amazing.
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I suspect more will be done to that area of the tree 2 separate talents both named Bloody Frenzy ?.
Still too many talents nodes for interactions with baseline Talents that previously were simply just baked in.
Dire beast path needs an point expense reduction.
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Aight, new build is up.
( https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-hunters/1279513/159 )
- Survival of the Fittest removed from Tenacity pets.
- New Tenacity active button – Fortitude of the Bear: Increase the maximum health of you and your pet by 20% for 10 seconds.
Sounds good, haven’t seen the CD of the new ability though.
- Hunter’s Agility changed from Avoidance to 4/8% Dodge per rank.
Uhm, what? Who thought this was a good change?
- Thick Hides removed.
- Fogged Crystal removed.
Waiting to see what the new tree structure looks like.
- Born to be Wild now works with Survival of the Fittest and is now a 2-rank talent, reducing cooldowns of affected abilities by 10% per rank.
Soo…why couldn’t this have stayed at 24% total(12% per point)?
- Improved Tranquilizing Shot changed to a 1-point node.
Good change. Nothing massive, but still good.
Survival of the Fittest added to the tree.
New Choice node for Survival of the fittest:
- Reduce the cooldown of Survival of the Fittest by 60 seconds, and increase the duration by 2 seconds.
- Increase the amount of damage reduction from Survival of the Fittest by 20%.
Really nice change. 
- Several talents on the class tree have had their positions adjusted due to Thick Hides and Fogged Crystal being removed, as well as Survival of the Fittest being added.
Hmm, we’ll see.
- New (NYI) Talent – Sentinel Owl: Call forth a Sentinel Owl to the target location, granting you unhindered vision. Your attacks ignore line of sight against any target in this area. Every 200 Focus spent grants you 1 second of the Sentinel Owl when cast, up to a maximum of 12 seconds.
- New Choice node for Sentinel Owl:
- Sentinel’s Perception: Sentinel Owl now also grants unhindered vision to party members when active.
- Sentinel’s Wisdom: While Sentinel Owl is active, your party gains 5% Leech and 3% Avoidance.
This, for the most part, will be fairly useless in raids. In dungeons, the LoS mechanic can see some value in certain scenarios. The Leech+Avoidance values are negligible, won’t do much of anything. Especially since it only affects your party.
But yeah, it’s off on the side, and isn’t a mandatory node for anything else so not a big deal. Provided this isn’t what they think of as valuable raid utility…
Regarding pathing changes in the trees…
- The first thing that sticks out is the fact that they removed the path from Binding Shot/Scatter Shot down to Keen Eyesight, in the class tree. Now it’s mandatory to go through either Binding Shackles or Agile Movement, in order to reach it.
- This is a bad change. Not sure why they removed that path.
- Not to mention how now, since they moved Tranq Shot and Improved Tranq Shot out to the left side, you’re now forced to go through those, or Binding Shackles, in order to reach the bottom left capstone section, which is for BM + SV.
- Again, they really should look at Binding Shackles. Making a change to make it more valuable in group-based PvE content.
Edit
New post, providing some insight:
- Sentinel’s Wisdom is very likely being redesigned.
- Hunter’s Agility changing from Avoidance to Dodge was mostly so there wasn’t a doubled-up Avoidance node on the tree.
2 Likes
2 minutes.
It was 3 points at 7% per rank, 21% total.
I disagree. This might be fairly useless, or it might be broken AF and functionally required. It all depends on encounter design. Give me bosses like KUJO or Shriekwing and I’ll be very happy to ignore LOS. Give me bosses like Patchwerk and I’ll never spec into it.
They missed a perfect chance to give us back a form of deterrence.
Leach Blows for BM on live it does not work for us. and Avoidance and or Dodge needs to go over 10% for a real benefit.
Looks like they reduced Keen Eyesight to 2-4% from 3-6%
3 Likes
The class tree is still lacking. Sentinel is a joke both in design and its position, by far the worst thing they could have possibly added to the tree AND you are forced to go through Camo to even get to it (link Lone Survivor to Born To Be Wild and unlink Camo from Imp Traps).
Imp Traps, Imp Mend Pet, Trailblazer, and Concussive Shot are all dead talents that will get ignored 99% of the xpac for PvE. Binding Shackles remains in a bad spot and it too is mostly useless in PvE, and completely useless in raiding. I shouldn’t be forced to pick either Binding Shackles or Imp Tranq Shot to get to Beast Master. The other side of the tree gets to snag run speed to get down to the good stuff over there which isn’t great but it is leaps and bounds better than either of these two “choices”.
One last note about the spec tree, you can get Imp Tranq without taking Tranq which should never be possible. Also, Rejuvenating Winds shouldn’t be 2 points and why does it have to be the sole path to get to Intimidation? Hunter’s Agility is just bad, avoidance was meh enough but dodge chance in PvE is a joke but there it is front and center.
The spec tree is still a gigantic mess with absurd bloat at the top. The overwhelming majority of content in WoW is 2+ targets so if you spec the tree for that situation you aren’t gaining anything new or exciting; old stampede coming back is nice but it just isn’t enough when you are also losing stuff like Thrill of the Hunt or Stomp to get it (I don’t think Stomp is a great talent in general but that is a conversation for another time).
What I’d still like to see on the spec tree (in no particular order except the first two points, obviously):
- Remove Loaded Quiver and bake the charge into baseline Barbed Shot.
- Reduce Barbed Shot’s CD to 11s baseline OR add a talent for this interaction, below Training Expert is a good out of the way place for it. Frenzy feels really bad to play at 12s especially at low haste like the beginning of an xpac. Give us an option to clean the rotation up early on that we can opt out of later in an xpac as you gain more gear.
- Training Expert reduced to 1 pt.
- Move Kindred Spirits to below Pack Tactics (where Loaded Quiver currently is) and make it 1pt for 20. This is a bad talent in general and should probably either go into Pack Tactics or into the class tree somewhere.
These 4 changes will put the top of the tree at 9-11 points without Multi-Shot/Beast Cleave or Flamewalker’s. That is how bloated the top of the tree is right now that you can cut a bunch of stuff and still be above 8 and barely started. We currently spend 13(!) points without Beast Cleave/Multi (3 more) and Flamewalker’s (2 more). That means in almost all PvE content BM hunters on the current tree are essentially forced to spend 16 points before the first gate.
- Change Thrill of the Hunt to 2 points at 1.5%/3% per stack max 3 stacks.
- Swap Dire Beast and Stomp; swapping them reduces the cost to get to Dire Pack without reducing the cost past the second gate. Or link Dire Beast and Dire Command, this doesn’t solve the issue of cost from BW to Dire Command but it becomes easier to get there.
- Swap Wild Call with Aspect of the Beast AND One With The Pack (reduce to 1pt for 10% just like Wild Call) with Animal Companion. This brings Wild Call, which is essentially a must have for the spec to function, up so it is no longer locked behind the very expensive Kill Cleave or Bloodshed. Something this important to how the spec feels/plays shouldn’t be so low in the tree or so costly to reach. This also gives an alternative route outside of AC into BW/Dire Beast for those who don’t like AC and don’t want to take Multi-Shot/Beast Cleave.
- Blood Frenzy seems very expensive for what it does, at most it is semi-useful during a 2min CD or rebuilding stacks which is very lacking for 2 points. It being down past the 2nd gate just makes it a tough to pick talent when you combine it with the talent bloat at the top of the tree.
- Both Sharp Barbs and In For The Kill are never pick talents given their positioning and the aforementioned bloat. Stomp just does more damage for free (both in focus and GCD costs) so it isn’t even useful to bypass stomp to move down toward Dire Pack.
- Aspect of the Beast seems like a very expensive talent. 15% more Bite damage in the current game is somewhere around 1% per talent point. In AE situations with Beast Cleave it does better but not by a whole lot; which is why it should be moved to below Killer Cleave. It would still be reachable under Bloodshed/Crows for single target.
There is so much meh in our class/spec trees that I’m having a hard time seeing the love that could have gone into them. We were hardly touched coming out of BfA and that is basically repeating itself coming out of SL. BM feels like it is losing stuff but also not gaining anything which is really really sad considering other classes are getting raid utility either added back or brand new. We are just getting more of the same but with less of it.
6 Likes
Hmm, okay.
:https://i.imgur.com/yulgEI2.png
Yes, it would depend on encounter design ofc. But keep in mind that there aren’t exactly a large number of raid bosses where they’ve utilized LoS in a way that makes it particularly useful to have ways to circumvent it. There’s no reason to expect that they’ll suddenly start making such fights a common thing.
KUJO can be done without something like Sentinel. And you can still damage him while LoS’ing his fire waves. Anyway, KUJO is a dungeon boss, not a raid boss.
Shriekwing hasn’t ever required something like this. The only time during that fight where you struggle to keep LoS, is during the shrouds. Though, it doesn’t really matter anyway as he/she takes reduced damage during that phase. And moves around a lot as well.
That they did yes. Although, I don’t recall if this was done with the current build, or the one before this one.
The main tree feels worse then the start imo.
The main reason why is because your REALLY getting forced into a pinch on the right side of the tree, and you barely reach 14-15 points before you have to go back and choose things that you really dont want.
Another issue is primarily for BM and msv specs. If your aiming for predator, bc lets be honest your not taking traps (how are they even still there?), you BARELY can get across the tree. Plus, why are we still forced to take shakles? Why is it the pinch point when it involves an option node that your not required to take?
My suggestion:
Move the KS, all the healing talents, to tge center of the tree and move misd, int, and the garbo dodge to the right. This will make it less painful to reach the sides of the tree.
Get rid of tge dodge talent, you can do better then that blizz. Its doa.
Move shackles and add meaningful talent there. If its a pinch point then it needs to be strong.
Finally, why do i feel we have gone backwards with the generic tree?
3 Likes
It wasn’t like that in the last build. But since they reworked, and moved the avoidance node, we can no longer take that to get down to the beast side. And they also removed the path from Binding/Scatter, down to Keen Eyesight, so now you are indeed forced to pick either shackles, or go through Tranq to get down there.
A previous build:
