there were a lot of things that they could’ve added like the current tier set, or something like flaying arrow that causes ks to proc more
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I know this might be just me, although I’ve seen the same be said by some others at least. But man am i sick and tired of fishing for WFB procs by spamming KC…
It seems like we’ll be going into a similar but toned down version in DF both for WFB builds and the MB build. Single target sure will be fun when its all about spamming MB till you are out of focus to then spam a few KC to fish for procs/gain focus so you can go back to spamming MB. /sarcasm
At least the bomb build leaves KC out of it a little bit. There we have the old 2 Button rotation of bombs and then butchery for CDR to be able to bomb some more.
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and that is exactly why these new talent trees are going to be a colossal failure beyond measure.
if blizzard really truly wanted to up the ante they would of left all the baseline class and spec abilities alone and created enhancement talents. here let me show you.
so lets say for example a hunter with multishot. there could of been multiple talents for this ability that would enhance it depending on player preference and or scenario.
- multishot grants trick shots
- multishot applies serpent sting to each target hit
- multishot causes a volley over each target hit
- up to 2 targets hit by multishot will also apply explosive shot
these are just 4 off the top of my head examples for 1 ability. but this is the route that blizzard should of taken with the new talent trees. nobody should have to spec into main rotational abilities and or even interrupts. its getting out of hand. its almost as if the person making these decisions dont even play the game or they are just firing darts.
the new trees should almost have a diablo 3 rune system feel to it. each class main rotational ability should have at least 3-4 affixes that a player can choose. everything from single target, aoe, dots, slows, roots, interupts and so on. we should not have to choose a talent for a baseline ability.
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ur spamming KC until Carve is off CD which lowers CD on bombs
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I have not seen anything about KC reseting carve… Have i missed something? Either way, its hardly a good build.
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With how bad surv"s capstones are, this is a legit build.
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/hunter/survival/BAAKWlUEUloqQgBQ
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as i noticed on the BM tree u cant get to 1 capstone , 2 is an impossibility…but yes Surv capstones are really bad compared to other specs
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I do agree that it feels a bit strange. Atm, I think we need to spend something like 24 points in the BM tree, just to get what we have baseline on live atm. Incl points spent on other talents in order to unlock the last section.
I’d be more okay with this if they at least wouldn’t pick apart certain baseline abilities, and then take those individual parts and put them in as separate talent nodes.
Example: BM having a separate node just to get that second charge of Barbed Shot. Or having to put 2/2 points in Barbed Wrath in order to get the default CDR for Bestial Wrath, via Barbed Shots.
- Return that second charge back to Barbed Shot, remove the node from the tree(freeing up a talent point).
- Put the CDR for Bestial Wrath back into the ability itself. Have Barbed Wrath focus solely on Aspect of the Wild. Example(inspired by the old Azerite Trait):
Primal Instincts - Barbed Shot now also reduces the cooldown of Aspect of the Wild by 4/8 sec, and Aspect of the Wild increases your Mastery by -/- for the duration.
And again, they really should move Wailing Arrow to the class tree.
My personal preferences about some other stuff aside, this I would say, is the bare minimum of what I want them to do with BM.
They’re probably gonna change SV a lot more before release. All we can do is test(if we’re able to), and provide feedback.
You can get 2 capstones, just not if one of them is Dire Pack. If I recall correctly.
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They really need to make these changes.
Wailing arrow could be an either or choice node with Nessingwarys T/A.
One thing I did not want is the reduction from 8 to 5 as a target cap for Multi Shot Really Blizz! it does bugger all for damage overall at its current 12.6% of AP. 3 extra targets at full damage is no big deal.
Also we need MD to Transfer pet damage as well. Otherwise we will spend half of our time in raid encounters resurrecting our pets.
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Multi-Shot has got to be the worst ability in the class by a mile. I only press it to activate the buff I actually want, there’s zero interaction otherwise. You could get rid of it and just put in an activatable button for those buffs and it would be a massive improvement.
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However they decide to put it in there really.
You mean Multi-Shot specifically? I mean, it’s an odd change indeed, but it’s not going to affect our throughput in any meaningful way.
The change to Beast Cleave’s target cap tho…
Previously it dealt reduced damage beyond 8 targets. Now the tooltip reads, for the first rank, that it deals reduced damage beyond 3 targets, and the second ranks says that it deals reduced damage beyond 6 targets.
Not a massive thing ofc, but still…it’s not like BM AoE is that good anyway, to warrant such a change.
Threat hasn’t been a thing for me or my pet for quite a while, in group-based content. But our tanks are usually on top of it, handling any adds, to keep them(mobs) focused on themselves.
I assume that it’s because they want you to spend Focus on your AoE abilities as well, but at the same time, they don’t want Beast Cleave-activation to be tied into your normal rotation. I assume Multi-Shot is the way they chose for this.
After looking at the new build for surv, this is a legit build that is being considered and it brings up multiple questions.
https://www.wowhead.com/beta/talent-calc/hunter/survival/BMBpiRYgBBqoBEBULWlUEUlooRgQBQ
First, generic tree.
- They need to do something with top left of the generic tree. I feel that 10% to pet health isnt meeting the needs.
- The middle section needs somewhat enlarged. I feel after I get the necessities, that there are an exorbinant amount of points to spend with nothing to spend them on.
- WTH is with this avoidance talent? IDK about everyone else, but ill take agility over avoidance. Thats garbo, bad. Either one is pure bad, it needs replaced.
- Bottom is getting better but i often feel like we are just playing ring-around-a-rosey here. Nothing is getting fixed, its just getting moved around.
- Nesingwary’s just needs removed at this point. It does NOT play a role at any level. Why not replace it with, idk something bomb related, or even surv oriented for that matter. Its the only spec that really doesnt contribute to the tree short of nestingary’s.
- Move steel trap down as a link between scare beast and beast master.
- Stampede and chakrums in a choice node feels REALLy weird, tbh. As someone who has always liked stampede (the theme not the mechanic), unless chakrums is really op, ill always choose stampede. Thats also because stampede just fits better with surv, although id rather it go back to its original working where 8 pets come out at once and attack the targets.
Surv Tree
- Its getting better but its def NOT there yet.
- Top of tree feels ok except for aspect and terms, both of which are extremely niche and wont be taken. I would suggest moving aspect onto the end terms and in its current location add a new talent involving ST play.
- Middle section is still weak. I say this from the left side of the tree. If you look at what I linked, most people will aim for flanking strike and killer companion. However, on the left, the player is forced to navigate around dead talents like intense focus, lunge, and sharp edges to get to the bottom of the tree for bombs. There is ZERO choice. This is magnified by the implementation of viper’s venom which is largely a ST talent. I am for sure not going to be spamming RS or MS on each target to attempt to apply SS. Honestly, this talent is ONLY taken to get to infusion.
- IMO, there is a HUGE dead section from Ruthless Marauder to lunge, from quick shot to sharp edges, viper’s venom, intense focus, fury, and ranger.
- CA is getting better but there is a few issues I do not like about it. First, i am not a fan of it doing dmg. This essentially prevents us from being able to “pre-” use it on a boss pull. Second, its more pet oriented, really not doing much for the hunter. Three, it only buffs certain spells. Four, CA’s power is in Deadly Duo, not in CA itself. This is highly problematic because surv does not have any true cds.
Suggestions
- Bake in lunge already, why is it even here?
- Rework intense focus and make it more centralized in the tree. Its just boring.
- Bake in sharp edges. Since you took away a level of crit when you removed the point, the talent is no longer taken. Replace it with something bomb oriented.
- Quick shots i think could be alright, but shooting an arcane shot isnt it. I would be more comfortable if it shot Explosive shot.
- Fury of the eagle is an alright talent, but it does NOT fit where its at. I suggest moving fury/ruthless to CA/Deadly’s spot and moving CA/Deadly to fury/ruthless’s location. CA has become much more bomb oriented and fury could be used for single target.
- Ranger needs moved to the right side of the tree.
- Explosive expert needs reworked so it doesnt involve KS and move it back to the left side of the tree.
- Blizz has already stated its working on Birds of Prey,
- I feel like sweeping spear needs to be centralized below frenzy strikes.
- I think Flanking should be on the left side of Frenzy strikes instead of right and bring along tactical advantage.
- On the right side of the tree there needs to be new talents that highlight a synergy between carve/but and RS/MS, perhaps by a dmg stacking debuff.
- On the left there needs to be more talents that focus on buffing bomb aoe OUTSIDE the duration of CA. Perhap bomb cluster? Leaving most of our dmg inside the CA window leaves surv very spikey and less reliable.
13 If fury can be moved to the center, there is a potential for a ‘middle ground’ between ST builds and bomb oriented builds. This would add fury, carve/but/ MS/ and a new aoe spammable talent. This would give both AOE and ST builds a reliable buffer plus give none bomb aoe playstyle a CHANCE to see what it can do. PLus, those would be the three organized builds and then the capstones can be adjusted accordingly.
Still a LONG way to go.
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Some good points but IMO a lot of weird picks like thick hides, mend pet, stampede etc. Stampede is a flavor choice but why even pick thick hides and mend pet? They are so bad and you dont need to pick them. Id rather take some better options like intimidate (our only stun) and perhaps serpent sting with hydras bite or explosive shot.
Same in SV tree, some picks are just weird while you avoid some good ones. For example why pick vipers venom? For example I personally think that 1 point for 3 yard Inc range on a melee spec is one of the best talents. Its cheap at 1 point, its not very far down or off to the side and man will you feel its impact on a melee spec.
But difference aside i agree there is some very weird placements of certain talents and some areas in both trees are very weak. It needs a ton of work and I just hope they will keep working on it.
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I would rather ask why we have these as talents at all. Other classes, that don’t rely on pets, anything that improves defensive capabilities or utility benefits them/their character as a whole. Meanwhile, we have talent nodes that for the most part, are useless in many parts of the game.
10% pet health?
Additional mend pet healing?
Improved tranq shot
These are basically never useful(worthy picks), outside of soloing certain content.
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They make these trees for all types of content, and I think pet health has uses in pvp.
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No I get that, but spending 2 talent points for 10% pet health?
Spending 2 points to get a total of 10 focus when you successfully dispel something with tranq shot? That’s, at best, a gain of 2 Focus per second.
And then you also have Born to be Wild. 3 talent points for a 24% base CDR on cheetah and turtle. Thats 15 sec CDR per point.
And then, Agile Movement… 1 point = 3% base movement speed.
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I chose what i thought i NEEDED too, tbh.
These builds are based around taking the LEAST amount of utility as possible and picking mostly dps oriented or health oriented talents. Usually, this would be seen in a raid scenerio.
I took thick hides instead of the int bc i HAD too to hit the next cut off.
I took mend pet instead bc i needed to spend a point.
Intimidation does nothing for me in raid.
SS/hydra’s bite requires a ranged weapon AND ranger PLUS a ranged weapon. Wayyyyyyy to much to invest to play some ReXxAr wannabe build. Same with ES.
I take viper’s venom bc its a REQUIREMENT for bomb infusion. Thats it. Thats the ONLY reason why i chose that talent.
Lunge is NOT worth the 1 point. Period. Hands down. Its needs to be baked in imo. If i take 1 point away for the convenience of lunge, then i either loose 5% dmg on MS or a big CD reduction on bomb during CA. Therefore, just to take lunge you are massively loosing damage.
This build you would see used in an boss fight that has alot of health but a continuous stream of adds. So the aoe/cleave is worth it. SH only involves pets in ST situations and Fury is an aoe spell with no interaction with anything else other then when your forced to spend 2 extra points to get ruthless and even then its only under 20%. So totally not worth it. In fact, i wouldnt even take CA if it wasnt for the bomb CD reduction, although its still weak at best bc its only durong CA.
I would worry less about maximizing throughput so much. The spec must Also work… Before tuning we have no idea about what is worth or not etc.
But as a melee spec you dont see how a increase in attack range from 5 yards to 8 yards (60% increase) is good? Alright…
And what are you talking about? In The linked build you have 12 points in the top tier… You dont need to take thick hides at all. Even without those 2 points you are 2 points over the requirement.
And fine, i dont raid much so i am not an expert but from what my understanding is utility is still quite usefull in raids? So why go ham to avoid it? With that said we are seriously lacking both utility and defensives.
And come on, you dont need ranger for Serpent sting or explosive shots to be ok picks… Dont exaggerate. Especially funny since the points you picked instead were 10% pet HP and improved mend pet, who are arguably useless in raids. In contrast to some free damage from SS and ES.
I agree that its a joke we have to take vipers venom to get infusion. That talent and its placement just screams incompetence to be honest.
Overall though i dont really agree with the fine print. And think your build wont be whats picked at all. If it goes live as is and for Any content.
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- For the spec to work it must be viable, to be viable it must work from a pure thoroughput context. The trees can have all the bells and whistles it wants, they are just blizz’s way to distract you, but at the base dps build, it has to work.
- No, i dont. 3 extra yards only matter when im trying to cleave adds, cleave a boss that must be kept away from the other boss, thats about it. Its niche, and can be a seperate build at the end of the list.
- First, i had to spend quite a few points i didnt want to for reaching the 20 point mark. Plus, i had extra at the end.
- Its not about utility in raiding. Sure, sometimes you throw down a trap but for 99% of the time, your just dpsing. So , no, utility means wayyy less the thoroughput.
- Your perspective that bc you capable of collecting said talents automatically means its a dps upgrade. Negative. The more active spells you choose the more convoluted your rotation becomes. If most of your spells buff bombs, ks, kc, and ms yet you take ss, your taking focus off the 4 heavily buffed spells to push a non-prioritized spell, ie, dps loss.
That may be, and my build might not see action. However, it takes both ST and aoe aspects and put them together using CA. The only way it changes is if the do something with the horrible capstone talents.
- You have no way at all to make that call. Since we have no real numbers and no tuning. Forget numbers for quite some time. “Blizzards way to distract you”… you sound so paranoid.
- Yeah because that is the only time it’s going to matter. Stellar logic here, why not just make all classes and specs have 40 yard range? It doesn’t matter anyway.
- How are you building your builds? You ignore talents that could see use at least some times or be useful for trash or adds (intimidate, hi-explosive bomb, Misdirection and our silence muzzle) and instead pick literal Dead talents (from your point of view, being raids as you state). No time Ever will 10% pet hp or a slightly stronger mend pet aid you in raids, there isn’t even a chance.
- Yeah no… it doesn’t mean less throughput if you change dead talent picks for utility…? Again your reasoning is so weird. I am saying skip dead talents that has 0% chance of ever be useful in raids and take utility that can be good at least once in a blue moon. I would like to see us actually getting some good raid/group utilities though.
- ie no, if you can’t actually use them constantly. Bombs will have CD and probably be a DPS loss against SS on boss fights (again, you completely ignore the fact we haven’t had a single tuning pass yet. Numbers are worth nothing). Kill shot is extremely situational, it’s execute phase and 2 per Coordinated assault. Kill command you will literally Never use for DPS since it’s worth basically zero (as is, again tuning…) and MS I don’t know what that is, Mongoose bite I guess? that you will use for damage in the windows, plenty of time to put up a SS or throw out a ES in between. That GCD won’t cost you DPS. The Survival hunters rotation is so empty and one-sided you’ll freaking need something else to not fall asleep.
Yeah, because splitting your talent points between two styles of builds sounds smart. Without having seen any numbers I can almost guarantee you that for raids or dungeon bosses the throughput will be higher if you actually focus on the more ST abilities. For example skipping Spearhead for a raid build will probably net you a hefty % loss in DPS.
Simply skipping Energetic ally, Ferocity, Vipers venom and infusion will lose you almost nothing (extra focus would be nice) since pet dmg is lousy, bombs will be such a small part of the dmg in raids and vipers venom is a dead talent.
Instead you could actually get Spearhead (aimed to be The ST capstone, might be good to have in raids) and it Coordinated kill. And you can get Deadly duo to further boost Coordinated assault windows. And then you have to take 1 more talent in tier 1. And I’d take aspect of the Eagle every day over improved harpoon or Ferocity for a raid build. Will be plenty of fights where you have to move out of range of melee but can still get in a MB window for example. And then, Lunge. I would say any serious person will take it because whatever you say the +3 yards are huge. Easier to spread out in melee, or reach targets faster or keep attacking while the mobs/boss are getting moved kited etc. It beats most talents in enabling uptime and survivability in the melee.
I don’t write this to be rude, even if I think your build have some serious lacks in reasoning and decisions. But I like to discuss the tree and think it’s healthy for figuring out what will be good, fun and what we can leave feedback on.