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yummy crayons
I wonder if this guy’s s**tpost about torghast in the DH hero tree (???) will end up completely derailing this feedback thread lol
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Looks bad. All this time to come up with something cool for a class that is unique to WoW and you gave us another throw glaive. More dps windows to follow and having to remember if we used chaos strike or blade dance during out last Art of the Glaive. None of that sounds fun or intuitive.
Meanwhile other classes are getting unique badass skills that are different than what they currently have in fun unique ways. Throw glaive as part of the rotation was tried and hated by most the community. If your team can’t come up with something better than a fancy throw glaive for a class that is unique to your game, I’m not sure you’re putting much effort into this.
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can we not derail this thread to movers vs no movers drabble?
Ya I have to agree with a lot of the comments. It seems Vengeance was an afterthought, and these talents are really really boring
These are the only ones I have read so far (new hero talents this week), and it seems like Vengeance was thrown in there in like 2 spots right before they published this. DH are unique right now in that they only have 2 specs, so both hero talent trees really need to have both in mind. If one is the “havoc” hero talent tree and one is the “vengeance” then it really doesn’t follow the model they presented for what these hero talents are supposed to be.
Secondly, there literally wasn’t anything cool in these talents at all. They are talents, I will give you that, but they don’t get me excited, they don’t sound cool, they are the definition of ordinary, not something I think Hero Talents should be. Honestly, they feel like stat buff talents found in other trees. Its literally a % buff on damage, attack speed or what have you. Like come on lets get a little more creative than that.
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I agree these, are talents…not Hero Talents.
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Speaking as exclusively Vengeance…
I don’t get the focus on Throw Glaive (and, for that matter, Sigil of Flame… but that’s a convo for another topic). I really don’t. I kind of think it should just be baked into a ranged spec if we’re gonna make it a rotational ability.
Besides that, with this tree, it kind of just feels there for Veng–I have to imagine that it’s the Havoc-oriented tree as a result, but, as others have pointed out, it looks like it provides another short-duration damage amp window to track on Havoc. There’s already a glut of these to manage, and I don’t personally favor that playstyle.
I’m sort of hoping Fel-Scarred leans into a creative application of the class fantasy; I’m more interested in playing around with Meta and the aspect of DH that takes on attributes of demons. I can’t really say it feels super “heroic” for Veng, I guess?
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Back to back VR looks very fun to play with
this is supposed to be the vengeance specific one?? If so maybe the 2nd one will be better all around for both specs… I figured this is the havoc one to be honest due to the throw glave stuff … I think the 2nd tree will be more for tanking hopefully… I would hope its better then this…
I hope it revolves around Meta too that would make much more sense… and for Vengeance that is what i was hoping 
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Neither vengeance nor Havoc, the theme is Glaves/weapons, soul consumption and mobility. I would hope that the next one has to do with the more magical and demonic aspect, IA, EB/FD, Meta, etc.
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I will just echo what others have been sayin in this thread already. I strongly dislike Throw Glaive as a rotational ability. A large reason why I am enjoying DH so much this season is the 2p set bonus so I get all the perks but with none of the down sides of pressing Throw Glaive.
The short deration buffs are also growing out of control and to take on that they are all desynced from each other further adds to the issue. The amount of planning and set up that goes into DH burt windows for can easily lead to mistakes and cognative overload.
Maybe bring back Chaos Blades from Legion and have it turn some of our abilities into short ranged versions of themselves or Chaos Stike throwing a glaive and Deathsweep dropping a Glaive Tempest.
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I personally have no problem with the TG but I understand the point of those who complain about it, I didn’t get to play this build before getting the Tier bonus so I may just not be getting the full picture.
What if the “Warblade’s Hunger” talent had the Tier effect as an addition or replacement to what it currently does?
Totally agree on the VDH glaive quality of life for pulling mobs. This tree would be noticeably better if reaver’s glaive was just a new spell instead of replacing throw glaive, with a sick animation to boot.
As someone who likes Throw Glaive as a rotational ability for Havoc, I am quite excited by this tree. I also really like the idea of having a “pattern” of abilities that enhance each other. I think getting to test this in-game would be needed to properly assess, but the idea of having an even longer chain with more abilities effected could be interesting.
I do agree with concerns others have made about Reaver’s Mark and the overlap of many short CD damage amplifications. I think extending the duration of Reaver’s Mark to 20+ seconds (with less amplification, of course) would feel much easier to play around.
I also think some minor changes could be made to make the tree feel more inclusive of Vengeance. Adding some effects like “increased parry chance” or “applies frailty” would make a big difference towards feeling designed for both specs.
Aside from utility, everything feels redundant. I’m also concerned there’ll be micromanagement with soul fragments. The feeling I get is: either it’ll feel like a non-spec or make Havoc even more trickier to play.
It also feels like an overcomplicated version of Meta without becoming a demon.
Not a very interesting fantasy either. ‘Artifact text’ is hardly something that should be considered class fantasy. DHs already suffer from this. The class has this “trying not to look like an Warlock and focusing way too much on the fact it’s the only class to wield warglaives”.
I got to say improvements happened, but the lining up procs/abilities is getting a little out of hand, so more of it won’t do us any favor.
This Hero spec shows how limiting it is to have two specs. Based on this, I’m expecting Fel-scarred to be a carbon-copy of Veng.
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Like any damage window that is not Meta or Demonic 
Having to micromanage a dozen different extremely short buffs to try and fit everything in to the perfect window is… not what I’d call fun game play. At all.
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Pretty sure they are the same one in charge of rogues… they just can’t help themselves with this type of design.
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There is probably a fair number of people who played combat rogue (super simple spec) and when legion changed them to outlaw, they found havoc pretty comparable to old combat in terms of ease of playstyle - as DH was originally intended.
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Frankly, this Hero Tree should go completely back to the drawing board. Vengance being an afterthought has already been discussed ad nauseum here so I won’t go over it again, will focus on the Havoc perspective - but acknowledging that alongside the Havoc related grievances this tree is awful for vengance (how in the world is there no enhancement for spirit bomb?)
Tracking souls as a Havoc is nigh on impossible. There’s no UI element to track how many are out, no way to collect them seamlessly, and no way to reliably spawn them when you need them; With the lone exception of using Chaos Nova offensively, which is a prospect I don’t imagine many would be interested in.
This doesn’t begin to scratch the surface of how impossible souls would be to manage during an actual fight, especially with the new movement for damage focus for Havoc. What happens when we accidentally Fel Rush or Vengeful Retreat into a 4th soul? Does Reaver’s Glaive stack like throw glaive? How many stacks can we hang onto at a time?
A lot of comments here seem to think that this tree shoehorns you into the throw glaive builds - it actually does the opposite. When playing TG builds, the button becomes one of your main fury spenders. Reaver’s Glaive, by contrast, rewards you for setting up a damage window to line up with your other burst. If we’re playing a TG build we can’t afford to hold charges to set up burst windows, so the trees are not really compatible. If this tree isn’t compatible with the TG talents, and Fel Scarred is, as assumed by many, going to be oriented to Demonic/Meta as a play style, where is the option for people who do want to lean into the class fantasy of demon hunters as agile warriors rather than the using demon form?
Assuming, however, you do take Aldrachi Reaver, you now run into the problem of Havoc’s littany of short duration, GCD triggered damage windows. At this point, you ideally need to like up the following buffs:
Inertia
Initiative
Demonic
Essence Break
Reavers Glaive CS damage amp
Each of these buffs lasts for 4-5 seconds and requires at least a GCD to set up. Most either disengage you from combat or contain a long channel. Lining up these windows perfectly is going to be near impossible and almost always will feel bad.
Havoc is in an excellent place in DF, considering the unhealthy states it was left in from BFA and Shadowlands where the spec was shallow and interesting. The spec has real depth, nuance, and uniqueness to it now.
However, Aldrachi Reaver is a step in the wrong direction. It is quintupling down on an aspect of Havoc that should probably be pulled back some. Havoc doesn’t need 4 lined up damage windows, and it certainly doesn’t need a 5th.
Aldrachi Reaver would have been an excellent place to inject some much needed love to Blade Dance/Death Sweep, which through the initial DF trees and the rework has somehow avoided getting any attention beyond the most basic +DMG talents, meanwhile throw glaive and immolation aura have entire multiple lines of talents devoted to them.
Aldrachi Reaver should be the Hero Talent option that gives DH players who want to lean into the fantasy and play style of an bursty, agile warrior instead of the near constant metamorphosis uptime that were expecting Fel Scarred to provide. Aldrachi Reaver falls short of that vision.
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