Examples of Layering exploits and problems

[Fury-lethon (Fury)]

Just look at retail sub numbers and communities. The proof is in the pudding.

[Xiokar-area-52]

A Warlock would not be able to target their character frame unless they are on the same layer is my idea. If the person wants to be summoned, he/she can hearth or find an inn to be transitioned. Yes, it is a lot of effort, but it is needed to prevent blatant abuse of layering that will occur without strict rules.

[Imaten-destromath]

It’s disappointing to see. The two major changes of layering and the simulated spell batching has really been a negative to me, which are the causes of many more small problems which I think is why people were so heavily #nochanges in the first place. I understand that we aren’t going to get the exact same thing we had in the past, but these changes have far too large of an impact to be implemented IMO. I’ll take queue times and many servers over a large server with layering any day.

[Feydark-aerie-peak]

Personally speaking, that sounds incredible.

I’ve experienced similar things during the launch of several expansions, or during private server realm launches, and it is easily some of the most fun I’ve had in WoW. I love seeing thousands of players like that.

I agree with you on that it’s personal preference.

I also saw some really shady things that day. The guild was watching players die so they could kill the tagged mobs. I guess stress can bring out some of the worst in people.

There were also some really great connections made as well. I found a great guild that is going to roll when classic is released, and I met them in a packed darkshore – which was the place to level.

Easy way to fix that is to have battlegroups where name reservations are shared across all the realms in the battlegroup. Should the need for a merge arise (not likely because Classic won’t be dying any time soon), no names are lost.

That’s food for thought. One advantage layering has is that it scales dynamically. If you have 10,000 players on a server, you can get 5 slices of 2,000 each.
Setting up name reservation based upon battlegroups has a static limit on server size. If you set the limit to large (20 servers) then name reservation becomes a problem with your name being taken. If you set it too small, then you get issues with dead servers.

what remains is a healthy population of dedicated Classic players.

Which is why layering will be removed after phase 1.

My suggestion is that if you don’t like what vanilla was like, you don’t play vanilla. If you want absolutely no competition, layering, and all that stuff, you go play retail instead.

I get what you are saying. An argument could be made on the other side saying “if you don’t like what classic is, don’t play it”
Of course, neither of those arguments will gain any significant traction. A small (but vocal) percentage of players will throw their arms up and play on private servers in protest over layering – but most players will play classic anyway.

Again, this is just my experience, but since i’ve gotten into the demo, I can’t even bring myself to log into retail. It’s just … so … dull in comparison.

PS : Thanks for the well thought out reply.

[Heidene-kelthuzad]

Which is why layering will be removed after phase 1.

I do wonder though if the people who will stick it out for months (if the end layering at the start of P2) are going to be the core audience the game initially attracted.
Layering as we’re currently getting it, has to show it’s face within the game to do it’s job. I’m not going to go into all the ways it does, but it will alter the way people experience the game, in a way that’s easy to distinguish compared to the original game.

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Are the players who want the original game with no changes really going to stick around until layering’s gone?
They’re going to see it’s not the same game Blizzard advertised, giving them good reason not to trust them to deliver the experience they’re looking for longterm, if they cave in to modern solutions (echoing to sharding/CRZ etc, wildly unpopular even in retail) as challenges arise.

Will the new people be hooked by the modified version of the game, which will show retail like functions (sharding/CRZ) in layering, and therefore give off the impression of “more of the same” that people even in the modern WoW really dislike for a big part?
Are those completely new to the game going to feel different about the game once the new gameplay layering provided is gone? Will it even hook them if they can’t get to experience the community aspect in it’s full force from the get go as they journey on, and in the following weeks/months?

Or is everyone just going to go with it?
Will people be using the system to power through the leveling and gaining advantages while they can, speeding up a game that’s supposed to be taken in slow for the majority to be enjoyed?

Are those who just take it slow going to have the same experience they’d have without layering, as they journey through the world?
Seeing as one of the strong reasons to keep them going even when things get tough (meeting the same people over and over again) is going to be disrupted by layerings flexible nature, switching out people each play session/whenever they group/whenever a new layer gets made.
Because of layering working like this, the whole journey and community aspect is also being impacted in ways that hinder the game to allow for the authentic experience.

I do really wonder.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

If you set the limit to large (20 servers) then name reservation becomes a problem with your name being taken. If you set it too small, then you get issues with dead servers.

A solution Blizzard used during vanilla was free realm transfers from populated servers to less populated servers.

I don’t know how effective they were, but it’s a nice supplementary solution to that problem.

Which is why layering will be removed after phase 1.

Hopefully it is. Frankly, I don’t think it should be in the game at all, but if it’s gone pretty quickly, it won’t be a big deal. At most, I think it should be in the game for the first week or two.

The issue is that sharding started as “we’re thinking about using it for the starting zones for the initial launch” and is now “it’s across the entire world for possibly the entirety of Phase 1.”

I am concerned, reasonably so in my opinion, that Blizzard will decide it’s necessary to keep it in the game. What if they overestimate the amount of “tourists” and more people stay than they expected? What if we still have massive queues by Phase 2? What about the massive influx of returning players with every Phase launch?

Will they still remove layering but also add new realms? Why ruin Phase 1 with layering if you’re just going to do what was necessary in the first place?

An argument could be made on the other side saying “if you don’t like what classic is, don’t play it”

Sure, but if you’re Blizzard, why would you go out of your way to offer vanilla, then riddle it with features that aren’t from vanilla?

I’d probably prefer to play Classic (even with a bunch of awful features) over BfA, but that’s not saying much. I’d rather play a hundred other games that don’t have a monthly subscription.

[Feydark-aerie-peak]

What if they overestimate the amount of “tourists” and more people stay than they expected

I would say, “Then we win.” Blizzard would put more support into the classic model. Right now this is the red headed step child of Blizzard. A team of 19 engineers to do all of WoW classic is a pittance compared to the team they have working on their other projects.

I’d rather play a hundred other games that don’t have a monthly subscription.

Meh. Lots of those games have major issues. Albion Online is riddled with russian brute squads. Pservers don’t have the stability or customer support that Blizzard does. 15 bucks a month does not even cover feeding my GF and myself at a fast food joint. When I was a teenager, the cost was something to consider. As an adult, it’s a pittance.

[Ohshiftson-area-52]

I would say, “Then we win.”

Right, but the reason we’re getting layering is because they’re afraid to add more realms, but don’t want the overpopulation to cause problems.

My point is what if the overpopulation never subsides? Do we just get layering forever, or do they add more realms? I’d rather they just add more realms in the first place and not have layering at all.

A team of 19 engineers to do all of WoW classic is a pittance compared to the team they have working on their other projects.

Well, they’re not developing brand new content. It’s not surprise a recreation has a smaller team.

Meh. Lots of those games have major issues. Albion Online is riddled with russian brute squads. Pservers don’t have the stability or customer support that Blizzard does.

I wouldn’t necessarily play another MMO, mind you. I don’t even know what Albion Online is, and private servers aren’t “other games.”

15 bucks a month does not even cover feeding my GF and myself at a fast food joint.

Fast food is stupidly expensive. I could live off a $15/mo food bill pretty easily. You just have to be willing to cook.

Regardless, the cost is not really the concern; it’s just that I can actually buy a game and play it at any point without having to pay more. 4 months of WoW = any other game forever, and that’s not considering that most of the really good games these days are made by independent developers in the $20-$40 price range.

I don’t have to drop another $15 every time I want to pick it up again.

[Feydark-aerie-peak]

My point is what if the overpopulation never subsides?

That’s highly unlikely to happen. Historically every MMO released has had a spike in population followed by a significant dropoff. Sure, it might be different – but you make plans based upon historical trends not ‘what ifs’. It’s why your 401k uses the S&P 500 stock list and not randomly picking startups.

(other games have issues) private servers aren’t “other games.”

Private servers still have major issues. How many times do you get a /whisper offering gold services on Pservers? What about black lotus mafias? How about lag?

I don’t have to drop another $15 every time I want to pick it up again.

Honestly it sounds like you are justifying continuing to play on Pservers instead of playing classic. LH has said they are shutting down when classic is released, but I’m sure there will be others out there.

The 15 dollars a month is worth it for me to have server stability, character retention, gold seller prevention, a smoother client, and better lag. As mentioned, it’s a pittance of cost. If that’s not worth it for you, that’s your choice.

[Chereth-cenarius]

To sort of add to your suggestions, here’s what I feel would help smooth the lumpy layers.

Need

-Ends at or before Phase 2

-Players only phase when they join a group, never randomly, joins group leader’s layer

-No phasing in combat

Want

-Characters above level 10/15/20 can only phase in rested areas, at meeting stones, or when accepting warlock summon

-Automated system for flagging abuse (changing layers more than X times per hour results in flag and pulls loot logs for GM review) OR Layer Switch cooldown (Dimensional Dizziness debuff, Unable to phase [outside of a rested area] for X minutes)

[Nechross-eonar-37277 (Nechross)]

The issue is that sharding started as “we’re thinking about using it for the starting zones for the initial launch” and is now “it’s across the entire world for possibly the entirety of Phase 1.”

I am concerned, reasonably so in my opinion, that Blizzard will decide it’s necessary to keep it in the game. What if they overestimate the amount of “tourists” and more people stay than they expected? What if we still have massive queues by Phase 2? What about the massive influx of returning players with every Phase launch?

Indeed. Many, many people expressed this concern after sharding was discovered in the Demo, including yours truly (see the sharding thread in my OP).

[Brockthorn-malygos (Brockthorn)]

And they were quick to downplay that sharding too weren’t they.

[Heidene-kelthuzad]

I just wanna say, thanks for putting these really high quality posts together.
I’m glad i also got to contribute a bit to figuring things out with this whole layering thing, and i hope that the collective effort to bring awareness to this issue is not going to stay unnoticed by the devs!

WoW is such as special game, and i hope they got (and will get!) all the feedback they need to make sure it can be as awesome as it deserves to be in the hands of the hungry players, who want nothing but max authentic Classic goodness.
I’m of course among those and my belly is rumbling.

Therefore my question to Blizzard is: Could you possibly be so kind as to let me devour (let’s be real) your finest, classic selection of vanilla ice cream? …no sprinkles?

Please…?

[Nechross-eonar-37277 (Nechross)]

Update:
The latest World PvP exploit evidence from Monkeynews has been added to the OP.

Ruins World PvP - enemy players and players from your own faction can be phased in and out at will. You can also use this to your advantage to escape pvp situations.

• [Monkeynews]
  How to layer hop between layers with your main, using alts:
  https://www.twitch.tv/moo_uk/clip/RelatedDepressedIguanaFunRun?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

• [Monkeynews]
  How to layer-hop and escape being ganked in World PvP:
  https://www.twitch.tv/moo_uk/clip/TallSaltyPonyDxAbomb?filter=clips&range=7d&sort=time

[Nadirah-caelestrasz (Nadirah)]

No layering and dynamic spawns.

[Tagatojin-wyrmrest-accord]

Bumping until a blue post regarding the issue of exploiting layering. Many solutions such as disabling it after starting zones would help.

[Shammymarry-zuljin]

What would make a layer favorable? I’m just curious as I would think they are all the same.

I do agree that layering seems to be an issue. I’d rather them have staggered starting or something.

[May-stormscale (May)]

Its those important threads and issues where a blue post would be appropriate.

[Moartears-malygos]

Remove layering

[Nefarious-steamwheedle-cartel (Nefarious)]

This guy compiles a few of these instances in one video.

This is very detrimental to the spirit of Classic WoW and hope it gets the attention it needs from the Blizzard staff.

The best option I can think of is having us pick a certain layer when picking a server and we stay on that layer until the collapse.