But here’s the thing. A civilian has no other choice.
A civilian is not a badass hero who can just axe his way out of trouble, a civilian is someone who not only can’t defend himself in battle like a soldier and usually has a familly to feed but he depends on the security of guards, walls and cities to stay alive.
Like what would a civilian on the horde do? Abandon everything and risk being mauled by monsters on the desert? Or risk being robbed by bandits? Or risk being killed by Alliance troops just because they are what they are?
A civilian literaly have no choice. It’s either being there or die. And people can’t just demand someone that never signed up for it to give their lives.
That’s not necessarily true. A civilians can take actions to effect change or not give tacit support. It just depends if morally you think they should or not. You’re just listing reasons why you think it is reasonable they shouldn’t be expected to do as such.
Again, your opinion is fine. But it isn’t absurd to hold a more challenging moral standard in this respect.
That’s not true. They have choices, they just have associated risks. The risk you consider a civilian should take is your call. But to say those choices don’t exist isn’t correct.
Look. I just want to point out that I was keeping with his framing. He opened with this:
I accepted his premise, which insinuated that all Night Elves were characterized by the actions of their leaders, and went forward keeping my talking points concerned with the actions of leaders. Him turning it around on me and constructing a narrative where I was broad brushing races is beyond freaking wild.
I admit, I allowed myself to get far too entrenched in the argument and let him control the narrative instead of backing out or sticking harder to my actual beliefs and points, though. I answered his loaded questions and let him keep that ball in his court while he insulted me and twisted what was being said. Which is my bad.
I have paid my upboat tolls to the people whose opinions on this matter I feel are representative of or at least more in line with how I actually feel. Including you. Feel free to interpret this and log it in the Story Forum annals however you see fit.
Don’t worry man I’m not taking it as a personal attack and you do have some good points there.
But I wouldn’t hold a civilian with the same standard I would a military, a soldier can hold his own using brute strength, a civilian don’t have this choice and that makes all the difference for me.
Specially when the mad leader in question is known for her viciousness. If she can do THAT to an imortal race of druidic badasses, imagine what she can do to the poor guy selling good on Wyvern’s tail?
A minor point, but the position of High Tinker for the gnomes is an elected position. They just haven’t had an election in a while because they love Gelbin Mekkatorque so much… and can you blame them? He’s pretty freakin’ awesome.
I know what I said and I rectified it. Go bugger someone else kid. Unlike you I am able to admit when I say something wrong. You should try it sometime
You just spent half a God forsaken night and now a chunk of this morning hammering a point home that was not only a deliberate misrepresentation of what I was saying, but that I also spent paragraphs elaborating on and attempting to rectify.
I just apologized for my part in letting what I meant get away from me.
I firmly believe that you cannot make exceptional courage a requirement for moral rectitude.
There is nothing immoral about not risking death for yourself and your family.
Heroism often calls for those risks, but being moral and being heroic* are not and have never been one and the same.
I don’t want to reopen the Sereven/Razzat debate, because I think it was starting to turn septic, but I do think it’s worth examining how different Tyrande and Sylvanas’ roles are in relation to their people, and also what people we are judging by them.
Sylvanas is Warchief of the Horde. Within certain bounds, she determines what is lawful within the Horde- her authority is legal and military.
Tyrande is High Priestess of Elune, the spiritual leader of the Kaldorei. Within certain bounds, she determines what is good among the Night Elves- her authority is spiritual and moral.
Given the respective scope of their influence, it is far more reasonable (while still not logically ideal) to draw inference about night elven values from Tyrande’s behavior than about Horde values from Sylvanas’ behavior.
Now, if you’re really comparing apples to apples, you’d be drawing inference about the Forsaken from Sylvanas’ behavior; she is their spiritual and moral leader, to the extent that their moral system often actually boils down to “For the Dark Lady.”
Even within those bounds, obviously, neither has a 100% approval rating. There are Kaldorei who don’t think much of Tyrande, and there are Forsaken who reject, on various levels, the Cult of Sylvanas… but really, that’s just another parallel between the two in that respect.
In the case of “Why aren’t the Nightborne rebelling?!?” a good example might be like Finland in WW2. Russia was invading and eating their country, so they allied with Germany…the only people fighting Russia at the time. Should the civilians there have made a moral stand about Germany burning a tree and demanded Finland leave the Axis and fight Russia solo?
Difference being Finland there arguably needed Germany to defend against Russia whereas there’s less reason for me to think Suramar needs to remain allied with the Horde.
My history is spotty, so I can’t comment overly. I’ll clarify again that I’m not indicating what the moral responsibility/culpability of a civilian should be, I’m unsure on the matter. Just that such a thing isn’t beyond any consideration.
![:thinking:](https://d38bqls1q93fod.cloudfront.net/en/wow/images/emoji/twitter/thinking.png?v=6" ":thinking:")