Everyone Seems to have Missed this about Kyrians

Lore Story Forum
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Pelagos says: I worry I will never ascend. I will be sent back to Oribos, and the Arbiter will peer at my soul and–
Pelagos says: Wait. I am not alone in this. I have Kleia, after all! Like she says, I get a little better each time. Some day, I will overcome! Some day…

I keep seeing people talk about how Kyrians are horrible, forcefully wiping people’s memories and comparing them to cults. But the questing straight up tells us nothing is forced, you walk the path at your own pace, some taking eons. And Pelagos himself tells us that you can bow out and be sent back to the Arbiter for another judgement. Nothing is forced on you.

And no Devos does not have a point, she was literally corrupted by the Jailer and lies to 98% of the Forsworn, they don’t know they are working for the Jailer and being corrupted by his magic. They are all being deceived and Uther straight up changes his mind when he finds out. Devos is damning souls and straight up killing innocent aspirants(and remember, when you die in the Shadowlands, you die for good, so she is literally wiping people from existence. All for lies.)

So everything about becoming a Kyrian is a choice. What’s the problem here?

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And what if the Arbiter just sends you back? She sent you there the first time, apparently incorrectly. Did her judgment somehow improve in the interim? Did she become less of a broken machine?

“You can submit to brainwashing at your own pace!” is not a choice.

And Devos’s core argument was formed long before any contact with the Jailor.

The Paragon actually concedes that Devos had a point in the end - she openly says that the concept of the Path will need to be revisited. You’re not on solid footing here.

If you’re going to quote people who are deeply devoted to the Path, but totally disregard dialogue from people who aren’t, then obviously you’re going to come away with the view that the Path is great.

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It also implies that you can simply flunk out and be sent back, unless that’s just supposed to be Pelagos being an unreliable narrator and merely fearing that he’ll be kicked out of Bastion.

And like Gavik said, if you were going to end up failing or not wanting to stay, why did the Arbiter send you there the first time?

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As the story points out, we’re not seeing any of the Realms at their best. :slight_smile:

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It wasn’t incorrect, it was to give you a chance at it. These types of souls are ones who in life devoted themselves to service and support for others, usually as benevolent people to some conviction of higher purpose. The Arbiter offers them a chance to continue doing that in the afterlife by guarding and shepherding souls across the worlds. It’s considered a sacred honor to become an ascended kyrian.

The Path is difficult and not everyone succeeds, but they’re allowed to try if they wanted because it appeals to their nature. It’s at least a tempting offer. If it fails they’ll go on to a normal afterlife with less responsibility. No real harm done.

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I was under the impression that your spirit could die by failing the ritual, though. I might be misremembering that bit, but I’m pretty sure it could happen.

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That’s not what the Arbiter is supposed to do. She sends you where you belong, not where you might belong if you try hard enough.

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Why is it an acceptable concept with the Venthyr(you go there for a time and then either become one, get sent to the maw, or move on to another afterlife) but it’s so foreign that another realm could be similar?

Giving a soul a chance to become a part something greater, but if you fail then you get sent somewhere else. It’s literally Venthyr but for people who don’t have to atone for stuff and may want to become a part of something bigger in service to all. And instead of people literally torturing you and enslaving you, you get to try at your own pace.

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Because Revendreth is for rehabilitation, its entire purpose is to help souls go where they belong. The Arbiter isn’t sending them there to become Venthyr, they’re there to atone for their actions in life and sometimes they stick around after they manage to earn their redemption.

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And Bastion is for service. They’re there to see if they can walk the path and join the ascended, and sometimes they fail and get sent back to the Arbiter.

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It can be dangerous. There is risk involved. But there’s many stages to the rituals and one can fail at any point along the way.

No, she sends you where you’re most suited/worthy.

And what a lot of you are forgetting, the 4 major covenants are only 4 of many. Only these 4 are what you call “in service” to the Shadowlands, in which they directly serve the Purpose. You’re not forced into any realm, except Revendreth and the Maw, which have strict requirements.

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Because people didn’t want to actually look at what the Bastion storyline was actually trying to say and instead just wanted to be upset at what they thought the storyline was because it was…too “hard” to experience or something?

There aren’t two sides:

a.) Devos is right and the Path is bad
b.) The Archon is right and the Path is good.

There’s a ton of wiggle room in between there and its clear that’s where most of the actual characters stand, including several of the Paragons as you quest through Bastion.

I had thought it was obvious both storylines were about fanatics on each side of that opinion while everyone else was in the middle essentially going, “I see where it can be good but it can be fixed” while the Archon was demanding total subservience while Devos was just lying to everybody to corrupt them to the Jailer. (At least by the time we get there)

Its so weird to me that we get an actual somewhat interesting analysis at morality and fate in Warcraft, which historically has been absolutely awful at trying to tell any kind of impactful story in a MMORPG format, and the result are just people complaining about it and/or not actually paying attention to what the story was saying.

Devos clearly had her own issues even before turning against the Archon and it shows in how she was essentially trying to demand Uther give up all of his memories asap, we don’t see any of the other Hands or even Paragons themselves act like her except maybe Thenios who we got a single sentence out of in all of 9.0.

And what was Devos the Paragon of? Loyalty. Shocker that she ends up lying to everyone so that they believe they should stick to the path she decided was right, huh? Almost like she was saying and doing anything to make the Forsworn loyal to her.

So again we have a zealot of Loyalty who feels she’s right vs the zealot leader of the Kyrians who DEMANDS that she is right.

THAT WAS THE WHOLE POINT. Or at least it seemed obvious to me that it was. That Devos and Kyrestia were the same person on opposite sides of a topic. Both had valid points but both were way too zealous and insisted they were right.

And while Blizzard hasn’t done a good job explaining this in the game, the reason there’s so many displaced aspirants and ascendants ready to be corrupted by Devos was because of the drought in the first place, Bastion normally had roles and jobs for everyone. And if they lost their way? They’re sent directly to the Temple of Loyalty, headed up by who? Devos.

So it’s not like the fact that there are so many Forsworn or questioning characters proves anything one way or another about the ways of the Kyrian, the fact that there ARE so many questioning characters was completely intentional by outside forces.

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Thank you so much for this post! I’m not sure when he said that, but I missed it, and, as you pointed out, really does change the whole tone.

Even if they risk permanent death on the Path, these are probably the souls that would see such risk as worth the reward for a noble cause. Individuals such as Uther.

I can also understand to why a ridding oneself of preconceived ideals of what defines “good” and “evil” are necessary for such a position as well, or else you have them trying to play Arbiter.

Interesting post, and I whole heartedly agree with Necroxis regarding bi-polar morality vs the actual gray in which reality exists!

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I think your post is a good one and that this is where I’ve been getting tripped up over it, and it’s helped sway me somewhat. Given the game’s track record of trying to do “both sides” stuff in the past, I think it was just too easy to look past the story and focus on “what is Blizzard trying to say about this” instead of taking it at face value, especially since it’s a potentially scary subject to dwell on like ego death.

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I just wanted to give the credit to whomever it was that wrote the Bastion storyline because I think its a lot better than the most vocal parts of the fandom think it is.

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Kyrians/ Maldruxis/Venthyr seems like none of them actually have a choice…they are judged and sent to whatever the Arbiter decided FOR you.

On some level, all of the covenants are cults, imo.

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Players claim they want morally grey, nuanced writing but in my experience the very few times Blizzard has managed to make some, the playerbase short-circuits.

The afterlives we’ve seen, with the exception of Ardenweald, are the engine afterlives that keep the rest of the afterlives going. When someone is sent to them, there’s not just a measure of ‘where would they fit best’ but also ‘what is best for the Shadowlands’. Not everyone may be suited for the Path, but the potential is there, and the Kyrian are only a small number of beings living their afterlives in service for the sake of BILLIONS of other beings and their afterlives.

It baffles me that people focus so much on Bastion when Maldraxxus exists.

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Well, I think most people realize Maldraxxus isn’t functioning correctly, the leader missing, two houses destroyed and two more lashing out against the rest of the Shadowlands because… glory? The place is clearly in chaos. Where as Bastion seems to be operating as designed with some hiccups.

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Even Maldraxxus operating at peak capacity is nightmare fuel, in my opinion. You arrive and it’s literally get stronger or get obliterated. There’s no rest, there’s only a constant pressure to become stronger/more cunning/more knowledgeable, or you die again. You have no out, no time to sit around, your entire existence is now pull your weight and become more powerful, or spend your afterlife as fodder at the bottom of the pile… or die.

Oh yeah, and instead of being on equal footing with everyone, every so often a soul comes in who is so naturally powerful that they’re just flat out better than you at everything. But hey, so long as you keep your memories, right? At least until you try and fight in the arena and get pasted.

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I don’t know, we don’t really know what the actual role of the “Undying Army” is. Yeah, Draka stole a map. The light attacked Revendreth. The Void attacked Bastion. How long ago? For how long? Does Maldraxxus get off its rear only once in a million years? Or it a constant conflict? If not, makes the whole cosmic battle seem boring.

But like I said, we don’t know how the survival of the fittest really plays out when ‘daddy’ is watching. The intro quests to Maldraxxus make, at least the Construct Margrave seem braindead(like, would the Primus let someone like him be incharge?). And a plot hole. Isn’t Revendreth supposed to drain people of those desires for glory and conquest? How do this vices just pop up again? Because of outside influence? Like invading forces… the stuff Maldraxxus is supposed to combat?