Everyone Seems to have Missed this about Kyrians

[Karserd-ragnaros (Karserd)]

i was an advocate of this afterlives sucking harder than a hull breach on a starship but then i read about them and they actually grew on me since well theyre all very specific and only specific kind of souls go there, basically the ones suited for them.

like to fight? go maldraxxus, want to be a furry? go ardenweald, like to serve? bastion, revendreth is your absolutely last chance before being hurled into torment for countless eouns then oblivion.

the arbiter had been at it for who knows how many years and got quite efficient at sorting out souls.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

But like I said, we don’t know how the survival of the fittest really plays out when ‘daddy’ is watching. The intro quests to Maldraxxus make, at least the Construct Margrave seem braindead(like, would the Primus let someone like him be incharge?). And a plot hole. Isn’t Revendreth supposed to drain people of those desires for glory and conquest? How do this vices just pop up again? Because of outside influence? Like invading forces… the stuff Maldraxxus is supposed to combat?

well kel thuzad went there so somebody was probably screwing up with the system a forsworn maybe?

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

And a plot hole. Isn’t Revendreth supposed to drain people of those desires for glory and conquest? How do this vices just pop up again?

Not really, because those aren’t exactly vices. I mean, they aren’t noble but desire for glory and conquest only become a vice when they fall under one of the “sins”, usually when they become destructive, to oneself or others. Otherwise, they’re hobbies.

[Aussielight-dathremar (Aussielight)]

Seems Gavik pointed out most the core components & flaws but I wanted to add on -

@Sevenbit-gnomeregan

Devos is damning souls

So is the Kyrian? They’re still carrying out their ‘duty’ delivering Souls to the Arbiter, despite them all to be dropped in the Maw …

They seem to be so hellbent on following their ‘path’ in one direction no matter how obscene it is. They’re practically following the ordeal of the hardcore light cosmology faction: "The Light seeks one path and shuns all others as lies".

[Cytriss-moon-guard (Cytriss)]

Glory and conquest through violence generally is considered a vice, an immoral or wicked behavior, which murder is mostly considered. Very difficult to achieved conquest without someone else being conquered.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

Yes but Murder itself is not one of the Sins that the Venthyr seek to cleanse from souls. In fact, it would be darn right hypocritical of them if it were.

[Gandred-amanthul (Gandred)]

Kyrian re-education seems pointlessly sinister when most high-tech / high-magic factions are capable of creating sentient robots. I don’t see why the First Ones wanted living souls to be scrubbed clean of their mortal lives and turned into blindly obedient automatons when they could just build robots to fulfill the same function.

[Sevenbit-gnomeregan]

Firstly; it’s not re-education, that comes with real world negative connotations and you know it. Please stop being pedantic.

Secondly; why do you assume a robot could pierce the veil and ferry souls?

[Gandred-amanthul (Gandred)]

It absolutely is re-education lmao.

[Sevenbit-gnomeregan]

You’re absolutely wrong lmao.

[Cytriss-moon-guard (Cytriss)]

@Sevenbit-gnomeregan

why do you assume a robot could pierce the veil and ferry souls?

It seems the First Ones designed the entire system, so the restrictions of the ‘veil’ is on them. If they want a robot to ferry souls, I don’t see what would stop them.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

In fact, it would be darn right hypocritical of them if it were.

If murder was a sin, which it is almost universally considered a bad thing, the contradiction would be too large even for Blizzard to ignore, so we have these cherry picked ‘sins’ now.

[Withpuppys-proudmoore]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

It seems the First Ones designed the entire system, so the restrictions of the ‘veil’ is on them. If they want a robot to ferry souls, I don’t see what would stop them.

its almost like blizzard didn’t think everything through, and just wanted a cult of creepy mindwiping angels as the protagonists and worked backwards from there

@Aussielight-dathremar

So is the Kyrian? They’re still carrying out their ‘duty’ delivering Souls to the Arbiter, despite them all to be dropped in the Maw …

i love how in the cinematic they are like “despite our best efforts the jailor is getting stronger” like buddy you are helping the jailor by ferrying the souls knowing full well they are gonna go to the maw

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

If murder was a sin, which it is almost universally considered a bad thing,

Murder isn’t a sin. It’s a crime, in most societies but don’t mistake that for a sin.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

so we have these cherry picked ‘sins’ now.

They aren’t “cherry picked.” They’re very specifically based on the 7 deadly sins.

[Cytriss-moon-guard (Cytriss)]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

It’s a crime, in most societies

Murder is a crime in all societies. Corrupt officials sanctioning murder as political execution is a different topic.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

They aren’t “cherry picked.” They’re very specifically based on the 7 deadly sins

What do you think wrath is? Someone so angry they smash a vase?
Most murders aren’t spontaneous, there is a root cause. Aside from mental illness, usually pride, wrath, greed etc. Normal people don’t just kill others. We aren’t talking about rank and file soldiers killing self defense, or to defend comrades, but of people that kill for conquest and glory. Glory, something of honor and renown… you know… pride… one of your deadly sins.

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

Murder is a crime in all societies. Corrupt officials sanctioning murder as political execution is a different topic.

I was referring more to societies without set laws. Granted, those mostly don’t exist in the modern era but there is also legal killing within even modern laws.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

What do you think wrath is? Someone so angry they smash a vase?
Most murders aren’t spontaneous, there is a root cause. Aside from mental illness, usually pride, wrath, greed etc.

Which is my point. Murder itself is not a sin but what leads one TO murder can be.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

We aren’t talking about rank and file soldiers killing self defense, or to defend comrades, but of people that kill for conquest and glory.

Even in War, there’s a such thing as legal murder, btw.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

Glory, something of honor and renown… you know… pride… one of your deadly sins.

Yes, but if you notice, Pride is insidious even among the Venthyr.
But Pride alone is not itself the issue but too much of it can lead one to commit horrible acts. You can never rid someone completely of any of the 7 sins because they are all part of us. You can only rid someone of the burdens that these sins weight upon their soul. This is the job of the Venthyr.

One can have Pride without being Prideful.

[Cytriss-moon-guard (Cytriss)]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

I was referring more to societies without set laws.

That’s a contradiction. You can’t have a society without laws, propertties the bullies adhere to.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Murder itself is not a sin

Murder is worse than a sin, it’s a violation of the commandments. Thou shall not kill. Deadly sins are built upon the foundation of the commandants.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Even in War, there’s a such thing as legal murder, btw.

As I said, killing in defense in very different than kill for glory.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Pride is insidious even among the Venthyr.

Yeah, almost like the people that write this game aren’t that clever.

@Faelia-ravenholdt

But Pride alone is not itself the issue but too much of it can lead one to commit horrible acts

So Murder? What are you getting at, sin is the crime or the action is?

[Yvenathilm-fenris (Yvenathilm)]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

Murder is worse than a sin, it’s a violation of the commandments. Thou shall not kill. Deadly sins are built upon the foundation of the commandants.

The Hebrew indeed calls it “Thou shalt not murder.” unlike King James!

Murder(which is considered different from an Execution or killing someone during War) is a violation of the Ten Commandments!

[Faelia-ravenholdt]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

That’s a contradiction. You can’t have a society without laws, propertties the bullies adhere to.

Not at all. A Society can have laws, just not the same laws you ascribe to.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

Murder is worse than a sin, it’s a violation of the commandments. Thou shall not kill. Deadly sins are built upon the foundation of the commandants.

The 7 Deadly sins are not founded on the 10 commandments. The have nothing to do with the 10 commandments and actually predate them.

Murder was elevated to a mortal sin in Christian theology, and codified in the commandments but it’s not in relation to the 7 deadly sins at all.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

As I said, killing in defense in very different than kill for glory.

I didn’t say anything about killing in defence. I said killing in War is legal murder.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

Yeah, almost like the people that write this game aren’t that clever.

Or you just don’t understand the subject.

@Cytriss-moon-guard

So Murder? What are you getting at, sin is the crime or the action is?

What I getting at is murder is a crime that one’s sin causes them to commit.
Only in Christian theology is Murder itself considered a sin, regardless of the sin that caused one to commit it, whereas it’s the 7 Dead Sins are thought of as “abuses or excesses of natural faculties or passions.”

Basically, your misunderstanding of the word “sin” probably resulting from your (presumably) christian background.

[Ninh-draka (Ninh)]

@Cytriss-moon-guard

But like I said, we don’t know how the survival of the fittest really plays out when ‘daddy’ is watching.

‘Necromancers experiment on the souls of the ambitious and contentious, reforming only the greatest into undead soldiers who protect the Shadowlands. Those who are determined rise to positions of power. The less-promising become fuel for Maldraxxus’ malign weapons.
Maldraxxus’ brutal selection process has built a vast and capable militia… but its hierarchy is wobbling.’
That’s from the necrolords splash page, the character of maldraxxus is entirely by design not as a result of the Primus’ disappearance

[Yvenathilm-fenris (Yvenathilm)]

@Faelia-ravenholdt

Basically, your misunderstanding of the word “sin” probably resulting from your (presumably) christian background.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Seven_deadly_sins#History

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evagrius_Ponticus

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vice#Etymology

https://biblehub.com/text/1_john/3-4.htm

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/%E1%BC%81%CE%BC%CE%B1%CF%81%CF%84%CE%AF%CE%B1

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sin#Etymology

Vices AKA Excesses are what Revendreth seems interested in countering while Sins AKA Offences are ignored in favor of the Vices that sit at the root of them!

[Baalsamael-turalyon (Baalsamael)]

Just gonna leave this here

@Baalsamael-turalyon

I mean, I’m Catholic, and thus I function on the basis of Catholic ideas of sin and redemption, where Catholic sin is just copy pasta of Jewish sin, but “atonement” is different between the two in many regards.

For me, “sins” are “missing the mark”. All actions should be oriented to A Good End, and the means themselves must also be Good. In Catholic Ethics, “ends justify the means” is not permissible; it is in fact condemned in the Church.

All actions (means + ends) must be judged upon their intent (of the individual) and what actually happened consequentially.

The effect is then judged upon 4 possible outcomes

1. The action hits the mark = not a sin
2. Falls short = sin
3. Shoots over = sin
4. Hits the wrong mark = sin

And then there are sins which are individual and sins which are communal.

Jaina and the Silver Covenant purging the Blood Elves were, for example, a communal sin.

The Orcs that participated in the fel-blood fueled invasion (which excludes Thrall among others, as he was a newborn baby later raised in slavery) is a communal sin.

Grommash atoned for his sin via personal sacrifice. He was redeemed.

Thrall (Go’el, Hebrew for Redeemer in the context of slavery) recognized the communal sin of the Orcs and settled in Durotan for the purpose of atonement as a people.

Garrosh had individual sins and he is mow atoning for them in Revendreth.

However, the sins of the fathers do not carry to the children, but their effects do (original sin gets into this topic), but that’s more complex harmatology/soteriology that isn’t necessary here.

Mortal sins, which are damnable and fundamentally damage the soul, in this case what would send you to the Maw, have 3 requisites:

1. The sin is done with full knowledge of its sinful nature.
2. The sin is done of your own perfect volition.
3. The sin done is grave matter, a subject that God has explicitly condemned. Examples are murder, unjust or stolen wages, oppression of the poor (or peoples subjugated otherwise), and sexual violence.

World of Warcraft hasn’t specified what damns you.

However if it were a Catholic world, Arthas would not go to the Maw. His will was influenced by Zovaal, and thus had no perfect will. As an example. He’d go to Revendreth. Mortal sin, but not all 3 criteria.

Garithos would. Grave matter, full knowledge, and perfect will.

“Murder” within Abrahamic tradition is in the context of the sin of Cain; different from war on the logic of “Just War” principles that vary from Abrahamic tradition to Abrahamic tradition.

War is not legal murder when it is a Just War. If War is not Just it is not War, but Murder/A Sin.