Essence Break needs to go

DH needs their big damaging abilities like The Hunt, EB and Elysian Decree to actually do meaningful damage again.

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Can we get a Fel Barrage buff. I like that ability

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this literally goes both ways. if you have to move for a mechanic during your burst or anything that causes a disruption in the shatter window, your output plummets even more. not to mention both playstyles lose quite a bit of output when you lose uptime so this point goes both ways

none of you who bring this argument up address this. the loss from properly messing up a burst window is huge and way more frustrating.

its just plain unenjoyable for most of the havoc community.

this is a lie, we had this playstyle before and it was fine, great even. quit using strawmans.

so get rid of the rng and make it streamlined. and if you mean by rng boss mechanics, it goes the same way if you go to burst and a mechanic happens. your output will always be impacted by rng to some degree until blizzard limits the number of mechanics during encounters.

if both are frustrating but the more overall output all the time is the lesser of two evils, clearly it is the right path for havoc to go and not the crap show we have now.

the short and sweet of it all. its unfun currently.

remove essence break, remove inertia. now they can actually buff out abilities and the issue is solved.

yes but this dumping of all our damage into burst windows is why we cannot have damage in other places or we would be grossly overtuned. its quite simple

bring back legion fel barrage

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comparing a burst window you get every 40ish seconds to something consistent you have to huave up 99% of the time is just dumb

it wasnt fine, it was horrible and havoc was also weak during those times, when it was strong it still relied on impossible uptimes people couldnt reach

sounds like you don’t have a valid argument to my point as I am correct.

another lie. we were middle of the pack and upper middle at times. clearly you didn’t play. and that was with not always having high uptimes due to mechanics.

this playstyle was not only preferable but more fun and less frustrating. we did quite well and at some points were in the meta. now we are bottom of the barrel while putting in way more effort for pathetic results.

your ignorance and bias for having havoc be hotdog water tier is showing. you clearly have no clue what your talking about while you continue to lie and gas light the community as if people are not having fun because because havoc is so great now. (its not) and people want change back to what we were prior to shadowlands when Havoc was much simpler and more enjoyable with the tools to compete with other specs.

He is 100% right.

Yes, if you screw a burst window it’s hard to come back, but those windows happen every 40 seconds and last for 5-6 seconds.

An uptime dependent build like CoH/SD is requires constant uptime for the whole fight. If you lose uptime for lets say, 5-6 times for 1 second each, which is more than common these days due to encounter design, you lose more damage than the burst window profile does by screwing a window once.

So tell me what’s easier, to find a way to get a burst window in without screwing up once every 40 seconds, or keeping full uptime and never missing a GCD in 5+ minutes?

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Why does the burst window have to be stacking multiple short CD abilities?

Is there a damage profile from another melee that is more consistent and less based around burst windows?

Also, if we didnt need to use mobility for damage, could we not instead use it for uptime and quickly dealing with mechanics?

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It doesn’t. This is one of the most common complaints about DH atm.

People don’t hate the burst. People hate having to stack 5 windows of damage for it.

This is not related to used movement for damage. You will lose uptime due to the boss doing an AoE around it or whatever.

Mover doesn’t remove your mobility either.

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if you screw up a window, the loss is way more than a few seconds of downtime, specially with how much of our profile is during one of those windows. not to mention how many steps it takes to land the wombo combo so its easily to goof up. ontop of the fact no matter what you do, down time is going to exist, thats just the game sometimes with how mechanics work in this day in age.

no way, not even close. specially if you account that your going to have the moments of miss even if your playing with the burst playstyle.

a simple and fun rotation that doesn’t feel so horrible if you make one simple misstep. its why so many people have a bad taste about the spec now and are currently upset at how the spec plays.

this is honestly the biggest issue. my argument is why can’t the burst be baked into demonic and remove inertia and essence break. people like being in meta, people like pressing eyebeam. we played like this before and did quite well.

Because if you want this, the 70%+ Meta uptime playstyle that you want will also disappear.

There is absolutely no chance that Havoc can keep a bursty profile when its on its main CDs for 70% of the time.

Imagine if our burst actually just required us to press our abilities that just do more damage. Like Eye Beam.

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You definitely do not.

This is blatantly false.

If you screw up your burst window that’s it, the mistake is far more impactful than few seconds of downtime for a uptime spec.

Oh but what about rng, what if you get picked to do a mechanic? Ok, what if you get picked to do a mechanic during your burst window, like wtf kind of point is this?

So should gameplay be held hostage by a few people who think the game should be about optimizing everything down to the last percentage rather than having fun and engaging mechanics?

Please just shut up already.

What’s next? All damage inside a few windows with an uptime of 15 % for the whole fight, significant downtime inside the rotation so periods where you move away from boss matter less, no procs because variance, no CDR or cde because uptime, so you’re left with a spec that frankly plays like utter garbage, this is effectively what you people are trying to ask for. This is the result of your arguments brought to their logical conclusion

Just shut up and enjoy the game. Do you even hear yourself? Does this sound fun or interesting to you in any way? I bet it doesn’t, you’re probably gonna try to gaslight yourself and others that it does though.

It also pisses me off how you people just blatantly state that a spec with a sustain profile cannot be competitive, this is blatantly false and we have real examples I’m the past and literally RIGHT NOW!

Listening to this kind of feedback will make every spec you touch play like utter garbage.

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This is true, no matter what. If you see a spec with sustained profile performing, it is because it is objectively overtuned in comparison to a normal, more bursty spec.

There is no situation in this game (or any other PvE MMO for that matter) in which a sustained profile can thrive. Their only strength is… sustaining damage, and a burst profile can do that as well, but with peaks and valleys. So it’s not a strength, it’s just something it does, and at best, does equally as good as a burst profile. Again, provided equal tuning.

However, introduce adds, burst phases, adds that have to die really fast. This is where sustained profile just cannot compete.

Add something else, uptime. As I said before, sustained profiles need near constant uptime, even more if they are a spec with CDR mechanics/extension like Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny are. This near perfect uptime is only achievable in dummies. Any real boss scenario doesn’t allow to sit on it 24/7, that’s just not how it works.

You can cope all you want, but only someone that is completely ignorant about how PvE works can defend that a sustained profile can be good.

It can be OP, it can never be good, and those are completely different things.

This is just called sophistry this honestly doesn’t even deserve a proper reply, it’s just you trying to convince yourself of your bs.

It’s because it’s overturned, is that what you’re gonna tell yourself, what about burst oriented specs that were also overtuned and over performing? That’s different! Because I said so. What about burst oriented specs that still don’t perform that well? Shouldn’t their profile carry them all the way to the top? Maybe a few times when the fight specifically caters to their CDs, but for the most part, no, if a spec is under tuned it’s usually bad regardless of damage profile.

Because if you do 6 mill dps in a single pull and 1 in the next vs a spec that always does 3/4 mil on every pull the burst spec is always gonna be ahead somehow.

So basically a sustain spec has to be overtuned in order to be competitive, forget any past examples just trust me bro.

Turns out overtuned specs are overtuned regardless of damage profile who would have thought.

It’s quite literally cherry picking, oh if you assume that the tank pulls with your CDs in mind, the pull is long enough to fully benefit from your burst and the cadence is just right then burst pulls ahead. So if you specifically cherry pick situations that cater to a burstier profile then it pulls ahead, yes thanks dude, totally reasonable argument, just make everything favor burst despite of variables and then construct an argument on your presupposed assumptions.

Very smart. Totally not just internet debate bs.

What about a more sustained profile being more flexible and always doing good damage? Oh that doesn’t matter! I see… Shut up please

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you legit have no idea what your talking about, laur is a extremely talented and skilled havoc player, calling him wrong while saying an entire thesis of mis info is just hilarious in a horrible way

shammy is so blantedly overtuned that it legit does20-30% more dps overal then the next spec in keys, and its still extremely powerful in raid, a single shammy can clear out webs in mythic spider queen.

syaing its not overtuned is also false, especially the attitude you have when typing this dogpoop once again, which you were told in multiple places, unhealthy and makes you look like a raging hole

when you stop being a jerk after facing any ounce of critisim of your poor ideas, then maybe maybe you’ll be more enjoyable to talk to. also i find i hilarious you whine about rng when you suggest more rng for everyone of your “fun” fixes for havoc and ret

it actually can

:open_mouth: imagine something so simple

well said

alot of people are outraged, not just you my guy.

more than you clowns. everyone knows you are a ret main looking to sabotage havoc as you hate DH. idk why you keep coming here to post in an attempt to derail the topics and conversation.

he never said it wasn’t overtuned. he said thats going to be your excuse as if you cannot make it work. and he is right, you can make it work. they have in the past.

your the jerk derailing threads because of your disdain for DH. you keep bringing poor ideas that no one likes in an attempt to sow chaos by giving the small minority of the community the belief they have anyone that actually agrees with them.

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Read my post again, because I directly addressed this.

weve done this dance so many times and youve done it with multiple people. you only reply to people who like to post the same misinfo and agenda push as you do and refuse to respond to actually good dhs that completely rip appart your argument and narrative.

you do however like to point at me cause you can discredit everything i say by saying “im a ret paladin” even tho ive posted on my dh multiple times before.

inb4 you start kicking and screaming about super spooky mods again

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I completely agree with this. It is a very dull skill that can easily miss. I would rather have something flashy. IDK which expansion it was but the fel barrage we had was sooo friggin chaotic and fun. Blizz had no reason to remove that.

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Fel barrage is still a talent. Nobody uses it is all. I think it was part of the dungeon build way back in legion and it hasn’t been popular since. There are a lot of bloat talents that are never used nowadays…

I’ll probably get stabbed in an alleyway for saying this, but path of exile II has way better talent building that actually works due to the intense amount of customizing you can do.

A rework to something like that in WoW though would probably require an entirely new game.