With the current development of the class, it wouldn’t surprise me. No more movement builds, no more “AMC” and a massive nerf to our AoE damage. And still not a freaking peep on fixing Aldrachi Reaver… This team has no clue what they are doing with the class.
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Before the next patch, please remove essence break. Substitute fel barrage or make glaive tempest apply a essence break type debuff.
The cone effect on this skill is horrible. And with the new changes, I don’t see us moving away.
Please dump essence break. It’s an awful buggy and punishing skill.
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Don’t worry about tuning, it’s the first PTR patch notes and this build isn’t going live until after holidays.
Movement builds are still there, whether they get played or not depends on tuning entirely. They just added Felblade to the mix to finally avoid all community division with mover builds, which is an objectively good change, by giving people the choice to move or not.
And yes, new Cycle and Aldrachi Reaver are still sore spots. Hopefully they get addressed on further builds.
This is pretty much how we got into the current state of affairs with DH. Normally I would be less worried but considering just how bad of a job they have done thus far with us this expansion, they burned up pretty much all the benefit of a doubt they had.
Laurineu white knights. Pay him no mind. Blizzard’s track record of jacking things up is what matters here. They’ll either massively overtune or they’ll create more problems in the other direction than they’re trying to “fix.”
All you people talking about how essence break is acceptable need to go play ret or enhance.
They could increase the damage bonus of EB 10x and it might make us competitive. It’s a terrible talent that we use to stack damage windows to land a completely unsatisfying death sweep. Meanwhile Ret is slamming divine storm and getting resets, half their abilities are passives, they can throw out a WoG or BoP or whatever and only lose a single divine storm.
Havoc is cheeks and has been for years. BFA havoc was best havoc. At least when we stacked vers we could genuinely claim to be the toughest DPS spec (although WW would argue, but blizz hates them so it doesn’t matter).
What changes have we gotten since BFA? Mastery is now worth stacking? Momentum/Inertia/Initiative? Eye Beam now has a 40 second CD? We use EB to line up DPS buffs only to get a mechanic and have everything thrown off anyways? Meta is now 2 mins? Furious gaze went from offering over 200% haste to 10%.
How is ANYTHING better than BFA? You can argue tuning all you want but most of that was just borrowed power vers stacking. At least in BFA we were simple to play. Yeah, stacking crit/mastery is super fun now. So glad I’m stacking mastery. What a FUN stat to stack. Now instead of being able to take a couple melees in a key if the tank dies I just get flattened. So much fun. So enjoyable. So glad I’m having all this fun stacking mastery. So interesting.
I’ve seen people defend things like momentum on here for years, but we keep having design double down on EB, Momentum, etc and the class keeps getting less fun, we’re never competitive, the calls for reworks are incessant and justified, and y’all STILL don’t seem to get it.
DH is best when Eye Beam hits like a truck with no AoE cap and has a 30 second CD. Essence break, momentum, inertia, initiative… either bake those effects in as passives or just delete them. Simplify the rotation. They should do this for EVERY class, btw. Look at ret: Way simpler than it used to be, and way more fun because you can focus on things like group assistance and utility instead of carefully micromanaging some idiotic DPS window.
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Yep. very unfun and unsatisfying. the majority of the community is not a fan.
few new talents like the return of bloodlet/soulscar are cool but not made good use of. Known your enemy is amazing for scaling but should be a passive as it is mandatory for all forms of pve due to its sheer power.
its amazing that ever since this crowd took over the fel hammer and began pushing this manner of play, havoc has continually gotten worse and worse to play with a more divided and frustrated community that has began to fracture and fight more than ever before. Not to mention the all the people who have quit and rerolled as the spec is no longer fun or competitive.
this
120%, not to mention all the positive feedback from the player base as the spec is actually enjoyable from what it was before. its almost like fitting all your damage in short windows, let alone 5 of them isn’t fun. shocking I know.
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Lmao dude, if you’ve known me you know I never pull my punches if there’s a reason to do so.
That Havoc got absolutely no changes from DF until now is unacceptable.
That Aldrachi is still in the status is in is unacceptable.
That Havoc got a 4% nerf in PvP that affected PvE and it was never fixed in DF S4 is unacceptable.
There’s just 0 reason to complain about tuning when it’s obvious they’re going to be reworking some parts of the spec. They might end up just buffing all the non Chaos sources of Havoc or giving them mastery scaling in some way or another. Regardless, it’s too soon to complain about tuning.
Complain about gameplay.
i’ll hold you to that. people have a right to hold their feet to the fire about tuning. by you trying to be the voice of reason you’re white knighting in this instance, because they have a track record of hacking these things up.
i will say something about gameplay, but it’s a waste of our time usually. they’re going to do what they’re going to do. i’ll just swap classes, because they’re showing they still don’t get the issues.
They are going back on a lot of the design they forced down DH throats on 10.0, movement as DPS for one.
From it being forced and the, quoting the developer here, “intended gameplay of the spec and meant to be best, and never going away as its core to Havoc”, to what they are reworking it to, which is a pseudo no-mover version that allows you not to move if you used properly.
They are also giving us back DF S3 tier set, something most DHs loved and, quoting the developer again, “had to go away to let Throw Glaive grow”.
Honestly, as long as they start listening to the community and just stop pushing their agenda, which obviously indicates none of them played a Havoc past the test realm, Havoc is in a good direction. Clear example is the new Cycle, lol.
I only hope they keep listening to the community, and we will get 95% there of fixing Havoc. It’s obvious I don’t trust whoever is in charge of designing this spec, not after what we saw from DF until now and how basically any improvement is going back on what they did.
fair enough. I retract for now then.
having said that. they’re still leaning too much into small burst windows that occur very often with what looks to be crap sustain (still) outside of the 5s inertia. nothing is really changing right now except how many buttons we have to push to set things up. while that might be nice from a cognitive standpoint, it’s not really addressing the issues of our damage profile.
I honestly don’t know why we have gone so far away from trying to stay in demonic as long as possible as the core of our gameplay loop. it was definitely more interesting than dashing every so often for a short buff.
Honestly, I don’t think leaning into a 40s profile is wrong. In fact, it is much better than just being a 2 min spec.
The only issue I have with the profile is that we have to stack 4 DPS windows (Inertia, Initiative, Demonic, Essence Break) for 4 seconds of burst, and our hero talents complicate that even further. Fel Scarred adds another window and Aldrachi Reaver, if played with the normal setup talents adds a whole setup window before bursting that takes more time than the burst itself, almost doubling the amount of stuff you have to do.
TL;DR: Profile is fine, what isn’t fine is the way it is implemented.
I hope you realize that a 100% Demonic uptime is horrible in terms of damage profile. It means losing all of our burst, and at least with the current Cycle of Hatred and Shattered Destiny, means that losing uptime is incredibly punishing.
Regardless of whether you have fun with it or not, this profile is incredibly unhealthy and just bad for the vast majority of situations in the game.
The only reason people remember this as something good back in BfA was because we were objectively overtuned by abusing Furious Gaze and rppm effects from 8.0 to 8.2. (We fell off in 8.3)
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the stacking of buffs isn’t changing right now. we still have them even with these changes. if we swap to AR we will just change SoS for whatever the buff is in AR.
since people seek to love interia so much, then EB needs to go.
i do understand that we’d lose all of our burst if we were in demonic too long. i’m not asking for 100% uptime on it. we didn’t have that in Antorus. in truth, we effectively
got EB down to 30s or so on ST (we could meme on AoE though). So, the uptime wasn’t significantly more.
As it stands, it’s obvious that having such high burst windows is hamstringing us overall. it’s impossible for them
to balance consistently.
things are a self licking ice cream cone at this point. mover is getting QoL’d to largely be a non issue (there are still issues though), so now buttons just need to feel good to push and things need to flow. We’re losing out tier for this season, and they absolutely need to bake that into the talent tree. they’ve done it for survivalist because of its reception and it needs to be done here.
This 100% well said.
It’s insane to me that we went from “amirdrassil set will never be added as a talent” to it being a talent in one tier. Also “fel rush will always be a core part of havocs damage” to it basically being removed in 3 tiers lmao
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They have removed Immolation Aura as a trigger, as Vengeful Retreat now triggers Momentum/Inertia, so that’s a button less.
I think we need more job, though.
some of the problem is tuning as it can and does effect gameplay. Essence break and inertia are clearly unpopular and unfun playstyles that are limiting out overall performance. they need to go or be severely nerfed to let us play other options and be just as viable or just be plain better.
but when ever this is mentioned by anyone, it is met with high criticisms that make no sense or are just wrong. OR flamed and told we are bad. gameplay is the issue but some of it will not be fixed until better tuning is done. (essence break being such a massive damage buff as an example)
what about the community that doesn’t get representation and is told to silence because they want a simpler less burst playstyle to be just as good as the essence break inertia crap?
alot of people feel that way and loved that aspect of havoc.
so true
exactly. so why not fix the issue and cut the extra crap and just leave the burst window to demonic? as it always was its more fun and can be just as effective and less frustrating. the issue is, any mention of this and your attacked.
give it less spikes and dips, more consistency and less frustration if a mistake happens or rng with mechanics effects you.
this is a game and fun is the most important aspect, that said fun is subjective and people just want viable options, which is currently not even close to the case.
we fell off but were still solid and far far better than we are now. alot more fun too.
or both and just bake the damage into demonic/eyebeam. specially if hero trees still provide some kind of amp to our kit.
the button press isn’t the issue. the buff is.
You just listed three reason why it matters. Even when they have done tuning it has always been on horrible abilities or just not enough. I mean for the love of god how many times can you buff Fel Blade damage?!? I understand you are trying to be optimistic but this expansion has shown us exactly where they will get us.
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yeah, it’s a button less. That doesn’t change much though. We still have the same buff requirements.
I didn’t have much of an issue pushing SoF or IA outside of them not being graphically enjoyable. It’s the only time in Havoc’s rotation that we do much of anything besides press Chaos Strike.
If they insist on these micro burst windows, then bake EB into Sigil of Fire as a capstone talent. I honestly don’t mind inertia.
I just don’t see how such and iconic skill as eyebeam is not the core skill to build upon. Instead we got this horrible momentum 4s burst window around blade dance.
I know I’ve said this before but I hate EB so much. So much that I parked my DH to go monk and now that monk blows too, I’m going mage. I’ll continue to play them but not at anything competitive until they change it.
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