Enhancement Spec Tree PvE Feedback

Primordial Wave has always been a little awkward to use, needing up to 4 different button presses before you actually get the effect off (Flame Shock, Lava Lash to spread, Primordial Wave itself, Lightning Bolt to actually proc it), and it’s only become moreso in the new talent trees as Lightning Bolt otherwise drops in priority behind Elemental Blast.

Primordial Wave’s current functionality is an artifact of the Covenant system needing to blunt force class abilities into more-or-less working across all specs of the same class without significantly changing what they do, but migrating to the spec trees is an opportunity to rework such spells to fit better into those individual specs’ kits and flow. Instead of casting Flame Shock and setting up a buff for Lightning Bolt to consume, cut out the middle man and just have Primordial Wave itself fire a Lightning Bolt at all our Shocked targets (Flame AND/OR Frost Shocked) as if cast at 5 MSW.

Feral Spirits, between Witch Doctor’s Wolf Bones and the added 15% Physical/20% Elemental damage buffs while active effects, feels disturbingly like it’s moving away from being a burst CD, and toward being a maintenance buff. Currently, I can maintain upwards of 40-50% uptime on wolves with WDWB, and while that’s likely to drop off as we get into DF proper and haste levels drop to early expac levels, sooner or later we’re going to climb back up to this point, and I’d rather see this planned ahead for now.

The damage amplification effects being on Feral/Elemental Spirits also creates a misleading impression of the spec’s build goals, making the physical vs. elemental damage choice seem like a preference at the end of the building process, rather than a build-defining trait you need to be selecting toward from the top of the tree.

I suggest cutting the damage amplification effect from Feral Spirits, and cutting Elemental Spirits entirely. Moving WDWB to the end choice node with Alpha Wolf and buffing Alpha Wolf to apply to single target attacks as well as cleaves would then turn it into a choice between higher uptime or bigger burst, and some new talent could take WDWB’s place in the intermediary node.

The physical/elemental damage amplification effects could then be moved to some earlier talent, making the importance of that choice much clearer from the start of the build process. My suggestion there would be combining Elemental Weapons and Legacy of the Frost Witch into a choice node in the 9-20 tier, then change Elemental Weapons from a flat 10% element buff to making your special attacks apply larger amplification effects to their relevant elements (Stormstrike/Crash Lightning = Nature, Lava Lash = Fire, Ice Strike = Frost).

Ice Strike, Hailstorm, and Frost Shock have very unintuitive interactions. By itself, Frost Shock is a low priority filler in our rotation, possibly even our lowest priority depending on build. Ice Strike and Hailstorm both serve to raise its priority by buffing its damage, which is straightforward on paper, but runs into a problem in practice: Ice Strike and Hailstorm don’t line up reliably, or even predictably. The apparent ideal is to hold Frost Shock for both buffs to be in effect simultaneously, but Ice Strike is on a set CD with no reductions or resets, while Hailstorm is at the mercy of heavily randomized MSW generation. Trying to line up all three can create deadtime where we’re holding Frost Shock or Ice Strike, waiting for MSW stacks… but is that even the right move? Should we be Frost Shocking anytime we have one or the other buff up without even trying to align them because the dead GCDs outweigh the doubled buffs? It’s incredibly unclear without resorting to guides or parse analysis to tell what the optimal way to use these effects together is.

The easiest solution here would be making Ice Strike’s buff to Frost Shock be a duration buff instead of a next-cast buff. This would give more flexibility to its interaction with Hailstorm, as we could cast an available Frost Shock on its normal priority if MSW isn’t fully stacked yet without worrying about losing the buff synergy.

Another option would simply be having Ice Strike do something other than buff Frost Shock, which between itself, Hailstorm, and Ele’s Ice Fury spell, seems to be your only idea for increasing water’s presence in our offensive kits. Maybe Ice Strike could make our next Stormstrike echo for frost damage, or turn Windfury damage into frost for a while. Maybe reverse their interactions, so every time Frost Shock deals damage, it stacks your next Ice Strike’s damage.

Whatever you do, also take another pass at Ice Strike’s gamefeel. It doesn’t appear to have any special animation of its own, and its sound effect is very subtle and hard to catch, making the attack feel very underwhelming and hard to tell if it even went off without looking at the bar icon.

Hot Hand and Ashen Catalyst are two talents that do the same thing: makes Lava Lash hit harder, and more often. The principal difference is that one does the job in random bursts, while the other does it in sustained stacks. These talents should not exist independently of each other, let alone with one as the prerequisite to the other. These talents should either be a choice node, letting the player choose between random burst and reliable sustain, or else one should apply to Lava Lash, and the other to something else; maybe Ice Strike.

Feral Lunge and Ancestral Wolf Affinity/Refreshing Waters are still utility effects that should be in the class tree, not the spec tree. Failing that, at minimum, they need to be relocated within the spec tree. Other dps with utility talents in their spec trees usually have those utility talents placed such that they are mandatory for the player to pick at least one up in order to progress to later tiers or down certain branches, and have the point costs of throughput talents down those branches adjusted to accommodate for this. But Feral Lunge is right in the middle of a path cluster that makes it entirely avoidable, and AWA/RW is a straight up dead end. If these talents aren’t going to be migrated to the class tree, they need to be on paths that make them mandatory to progress down branches that account for the burned points on utility. Feral Lunge, for example, could take that vacated intermediary space in the Feral Spirit line.

Windfury Totem. How many times can this be repeated? This thing is the only group buff in the game that:

  • has to be talented into
  • has grouping requirements
  • has a 2 minute duration instead of 60
  • has positional requirements
  • has such a specific benefit as “melee only”
  • has such a specific benefit that different classes and specs even within that specific role receive highly unequal benefits from it

Please, just make this a 5% Attack Speed aura active whenever we have Windfury Weapon applied to ourselves.

Ascendance remains an absolutely hideous skull-faced monstrosity based on a bunch of doomsday lunatics we wiped out a decade ago, not to mention male-only. This is not what we should be turning into to express that we have achieved the pinnacle of shamanistic power and oneness with the elements. At minimum, please give us a glyph to turn into, I dunno, a generic elemental, or even just steal monk’s Storm, Earth, and Fire form. Just anything other than elemental Skeletor.

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About 2 months late for this.

Also. Wolves isn’t moving towards being a maintenance buff over cd. Its been one. For a while.

Well, I didn’t have beta, so I wasn’t playing with these talents 2 months ago.

Also, forgot this one:

Please make Fire Nova uncastable if you don’t have any Flame Shocks active as fat finger protection.

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I get it. Just asking for the entire tree to be completely reworked isn’t gonna happen.

Ascendance is an adrogynous elemental ‘thing’. Not male.

I wouldn’t call it androgynous, it’s quite masculine. It has Popeye’s body, look at those forearms.

Let’s not get bogged down on the details - the main idea is that it’s an antiquated modeling which is forced upon the player to ‘ascend’. Let’s just have cooler options, I mean we have an expansion about angy elements with new models, chuck one of those our way as a glyph

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I agree it is an eyesore… and Ice strike doesn’t look like anything. Just a faintly blue strike that you don’t notice because there’s so much other stuff going on and it’s like I said, just a dim blue strike animation. I do sorta like the rotation though. I only go for 10 MS frostshocks combined with ice strike pretty much every other frost shock, occasionally every third frost shock. That’s when they typically align.

And you don’t end up with dead GCDs doing that?

What do you mean 'dead?

GCDs where you aren’t pressing any buttons.

Optimal Enhacement play is to juggle all of our various damage buttons so that a GCD never goes by without us casting a spell or hitting a special attack. Frost Shock is an important filler in that rotation for whenever something heavier like Stormstrike or an MSW instant-cast isn’t available. If you’re routinely holding Frost Shock until you have both an Ice Strike and a 10-stack MSW Hailstorm up at the same time, are you not running into stretches of time where you have no damaging abilities to press?

I’m not holding frost shock. I only meant that hailstorm and ice strike line up about every third ice strike. So like every 30 seconds

30 seconds per natural lineup is really, really bad, though, if the optimal way to use these buffs is to try and stack them as often as possible. But then, as I said in the OP, I’m not even sure whether that is the optimal way to use them. It would certainly seem like it should be, but the lineup issue makes that super unwieldy.

If these buffs are meant to be routinely stacked on the same Frost Shock, then they need to be adjusted for more frequent lineups. If it’s not supposed to matter, that would be a lot clearer if Ice Strike had a different function than also buffing Frost Shock.

Ice strike does have a different function, just not for PvE. It is also a melee snare that bypasses armor for PvP.

In the end, like everything, it just comes down to parsing and seeing what’s best. We already do this for stat weights…Is it that different to do it to find out whether you use frost shock now, or hold it to line things up? If you are a player that’s not interested in parsing or reading a guide in the first place, than what does it even matter? You aren’t worried about min/max, and just use it as you see fit.

Also, dead GCDs are always a thing at the start of expansions due to haste levels, that as stats increase gets ironed out on its own.

And that’d be real meaningful if the discussion weren’t specifically about its Frost Shock buffing effect.

I don’t feel that I should need to parse just to understand how two straightforward next-cast damage buffs interact with the spell they affect. If these are meant to be lined up, they need changes so that they do so more naturally. If they aren’t, Ice Strike’s Frost Shock effect being changed to something else would make the intended rotational flwo much clearer.

We know how the interactions work though.

If you are trying to min/max damage, you are going to be parsing regardless for things like which trinkets are the best.

The interaction is: I use ice strike and my next frost shock hits harder OR I use 5 stacks of maelstrom and my frost shock hits harder and AoEs OR I consume 5 stacks then use ice strike (or vice versa) and then I have a big AoE Frost Shock nuke.

They most likely don’t line up perfectly because you can take them separately. But if we are worried about which is going to be doing the most damage, we also have to take into account things like how much haste do we have and how fast are we generating our 5/10 stacks. I certainly can’t do that math in my head — so I would be parsing to find out.

But if I didn’t care about min maxing, it seems to me the general guide of — Am I in Single Target? Then I probably am not running hailstorm and if I have ice strike, I use it before frost shock when I can. Am I in AoE? Then I should probably try to line them up as best as I can with my AoE.

Yes. Which leads to the entire point of uncertainty this discussion is centered on: is it better to hold Frost Shock for both buffs simultaneously at the expense of dead GCDs than to use it whenever you have either/or?

To which the answer is not clear without parse analysis, which seems excessive for understanding such a basic rotational aspect as where one spell fits in the priority in relation to two others that both buff it.

Yes, the current forms of these talents function. But they could do better than just function. Good game design should be intuitive. Clearer mechanics are generally better. Ice Strike and Hailstorm having such similar interactions with Frost Shock while being largely de-synced from each other makes their usage unclear. Their interactions could be preserved while simultaneously clarifying their optimal usage by something as simple as reversing Ice Strike’s interaction with Frost Shock so that Frost Shock buffs Ice Strike instead of the other way around.

this is where I find myself hung up, because you are asking is it better…What is your definition of better? Is it more damage?

This being specifically a discussion of PvE enhancement, higher dps.

Is it higher dps to hold spells to line up both Ice Strike and Hailstorm, is it higher dps to use Frost Shock whenever you have one or the other without waiting for both, or are they roughly equivalent?

If the higher dps comes from holding spells to line both up, that’s a problem because it contributes to more dead GCDs in a rotation that’s already heavily dependent on gear to not be sitting around waiting to do something.

If dps from lining them both up isn’t higher, then it’s counterintuitive that the more challenging task of lining both buffs up doesn’t reward the effort (or depending on precise numbers, even comes out to a loss). The mechanics suggest an optimal combination that isn’t actually optimal.

I don’t see dead GCDs as a problem. They are already built naturally into the spec at low levels of haste. So while holding back a frost shock might feel counterintuitive, I don’t think its the end of the world if lining everything up proves to be higher dps.

Conversely, I don’t think if lining everything up proves to be lower sustained dmg overall, that that is a bad thing either. Because despite the conversation being primarily about PvE dps, the talents weren’t designed exclusively for PvE. Being able to line them up will always be the best way to use them in PvP for maximum burst dmg.

I think I just don’t see it as much of an issue to have to parse for this type of thing, because we’ve done it with similar mechanics in the past. That said, I also don’t disagree that they could have designed them to flow together more naturally.

The erratic nature of maelstrom generation is really the main culprit, because Ice Strike and Frost Shock’s cooldown are static (reduced by haste?), whereas there is a ton of variance for when we hit 5/10 stacks to get a hailstorm buff.