Engineering Profession Feedback

Hey everyone, Blizzard has listened and engineering has received a fairly major revamp from the patch on June 25th. I will have a post later in thread below and will keep the original post here unedited beyond this point.

Over the past several weeks I have gone over and thoroughly tested all the crafting professions multiple times. On live, I do every profession, have every recipe, and have done thousands of crafts for people, so I will be coming at it from that angle. Most professions are in a workable state, but there is one profession that feels completely off from all others, It is engineering.

What feels off about engineering?

• Time consumption: It is incredibly time-consuming, the scour through scrap takes hours upon hours as it’s a unique 1. That means you cannot scour all as if you do, you will craft 1000 times, use 5000 scrap and only get 1 single prototype. So anyone who uses scour all will get burnt badly and lose everything they they progressed for. Thus the only method is carefully watching with scour all or craft 1 at a time for thousands of crafts.

• All recipes learned through Notes: It’s an interesting design theory. It makes thematic sense for engineering. It is not implemented in a way that makes it competitive or fun like other professions. It’s a great idea, just takes a long time and feels clunky. The notes do not feel rewarding, there is no targeting for what you want. If you want profession equipment, it could be the very last item you learn after investing dozens if not more hours into engineering.

• Invent: 3-day cooldown for learning a singular prototype of a recipe. It is not an actual recipe. It’s just something you disassemble for 2-8 pages (30 pages for a recipe). It costs 75 scrap for that and Scour is 5 scrap per. It is more likely to find a prototype from scour for cheaper than it is invent. Invent is also an extremely long cd for no real reason, at most it should be daily and give more than it does. It also averages out to roughly 1 recipe a month if you rely on only invent which seems incredibly off. (Assuming you do not invest fully in inventing tree which might allow you to get 2 recipes a month)

What are the current problems associated with the profession?

• Limit 1 Prototype: On top of what was talked about in the first bullet point. If you have a prototype anywhere on your character, in the bank ect. If you use invent, you will not receive a prototype and it will go on a 3-day cooldown. Thus wasting the 3-day cd and a bunch of materials.

• Pilfer through parts: To learn this recipe. You need to hit skill 25 in engineering and invest enough points to go into Parts in the middle of the Inventing specialization tree. Now this feels off as scrap is the main material needed for advancing the profession. But to get the source of gathering scrap inside the profession. You need to of already used a bunch of scrap to learn recipes and advance to skill 25 in the profession then invest all the knowledge you earned to reach it. The recipe should be learned baseline when learning the profession.

• Learning Prototypes: If you learn all the prototypes instead of scraping them for notes. You can eventually run out of prototypes. Invent will do nothing, and you can scour a thousand parts and never find another blueprint. It breaks your entire profession. This is intended currently as you only learn the prototypes you do not know. So if you do not scrap and instead just use them to learn them. The profession is bricked forever till you unlearn and redo the entire profession.

• Inventing specialization: 40 points are what’s needed to start gathering notes at a decent rate. A decent rate is still many hours of scouring and scraping prototypes to gather notes. It just means your note gathering is noticeably increased. If you want to be more stable with scrap and get even more notes, you will need to invest 140 points. In order to gather 140 points, it’s most likely gonna take a month if not a bit longer. If anyone goes into another specialization first, it’s going to be way longer for them to unlock things. It’s a large investment just to start learning recipes at a rate that’s not incredibly rough.

• Time: As talked about in the first bullet point of this post, the need to scour thousands of times and assuming even infinite materials and fully maxed in inventing. You are looking at 5-8 hours depending on luck for constant crafting to unlock all recipes. As live will not have access to skips on the beta. The grind may be much longer than that.

Suggestions to give an idea of where improvements could take place.

• Remove unique 1 Prototype: Allow multiple of the same prototypes to be crafted to allow for craft all to work, to prevent the bug with invent giving nothing and to make sure people don’t lose a massive amount of materials without realizing the constant crafts won’t give you any more notes till you use your unique prototype. This will also make it so you cannot brick your profession when you know all the prototype recipes.

• Notes: Increase the rate of notes via successfully using them and learning prototype recipe (maybe gathering 2-3 notes?), or failing to learn prototype recipe (gathering more from failure). Other sources of notes would also be incredibly beneficial to cut down on the grind.

• Vendor recipes: Including more recipes on the trainer and lowering notes you need to farm would dramatically lower the grind, and time consumption and make the profession feel a lot better.

Final thoughts on engineering.

Overall, engineering this expansion is a very interesting concept. If done right, It will be a unique and new take on how to do a profession. Sadly, it needs a fair bit more love and care to get there. In its current iteration. It will be the only profession in several years that I do not touch. I hope that it gets the care and attention it needs and fixes several of the main issues such as prototypes, time and notes.

Thank you to everyone who took the time to read this post and I hope you have a wonderful day.

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Sorry for the noob question, but how do you get the scraps in the first place? I ran all over mining/fighting/exploring and got a total of 1.

It is incredibly hard to level compared to Blacksmithing. I looted 5 rock today, got ten points in Blacksmithing, but I can’t even begin to Engineer till I loot items to salvage.

Not to mention the ability to craft at the table in Dorngal is broken.

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Thank you for that feedback. I appreciate the work that went into that.

I have a question regarding the high-intensity rockets or whatever the equivalent is for War Within - have we seen that yet? Or where does it come from?

I have leveled through Engineering on the Beta and have apparently learned all the recipes I can from the pages. Is there some sort of War Within enchant for ranged weapons at the moment?

I’m new to professions, especially Engineering - I haven’t touched them in years because I just generally dislike them, but I thought I would see what it has to offer on the Beta.

Thank you in advance for your help.

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I was not able to find a good spot for scrap sadly. I had to do it on max realm in order to finish the profession. It seems to only be a humanoid drop? So farming kobolds is a potential area for them.

I have sadly not seen anything like that for war within sadly. It seems to mostly be buffs/utility, and gear.

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I already found leveling Engineering in DF to be one of, it not the most, painful professions to level. It felt slow and there were few options to get anywhere once you got past a certain point. I still have yet to max it out and we are at the end of the expansion because it just felt frustrating. That didn’t happen to me with other professions.

I haven’t tried it yet on Beta, but this feedback is making me regret having engineering on my main in a big way. I will have to get on there and try it for myself.

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I will echo this as what I’ve noticed as well. I think this RNG based profession is a horrible idea. There are so many good recipes, and useful items you can make however you’ll never be able to make them due to the time and effort needed to grind out mats to even have a chance at learning them. This seems to be based off of the alchemy discovery, which I believe is also questionable. Please, Please, Please blizz change this.

Of note as well, the tinker table in Dornogal is not functioning in beta as of this post which means you can’t make anything you may have learned.

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I posted this in the other engineer feedback thread, but I’ll leave it here too:

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wow/t/feedback-engineering/

Engineering changes for discovering/learning crafts feels really bad right now. You need to first get enough specialization points to unlock the craft you want (bracers/goggles/profession gear). You then need to have 30 ‘Hastily Scrawled Notes’ for 1 ‘Comprehensibly Organized Note’ to have a chance at discovering the recipe you want.

‘Comprehensibly Organized Notes’ give you a menu of 2 items. To get 3 items you must have 1 point in inventing. On top of that there is currently a bug where you can have the recipe appear more than once in this menu.

Tuning could increase the scrap we get and the note drops, but even then it’s RNG on RNG on RNG to get recipes.

Why can’t we target the items through the skill tree like other professions? Why does seemingly every worthwhile craft in engineering require multiple layers of RNG to acquire? Say your a plate class and you want to target the EPIC plate bracers/helm. Well you might get the leather/cloth/mail version in the RNG window if you even get it to pop up at all. To top it off profession equipment recipes are tied into this RNG system too. This seems like they wanted some bad-luck protection from how DF worked… but it still feels pretty bad with the current note/scrap system.

They should have had some of the epic crafts similar to how other professions do it… you spend skills into the tree and unlock it automatically. You’re already time-gated by the amount of profession points you can get each week. Why add a layer of RNG to actually get the recipe you want on top of that?

However, I could be wrong but I believe there was a blue post where they said professions were done and the only thing left was tuning.

If that’s the case that’s pretty bad as I suspect far fewer people test professions compared to the rest of the other aspects of the game.

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I mainly do eng for raid stuff, but with the way it feels right now it’s not going to be worth it. I sincerely hope they are not “done” with professions, if they just based all the changes off the Alpha that would be a huge mistake. I’ve spent 3-4hr messing around questing and such, and only have found enough scrap to rummage 3x, learning ONE recipe. Feels bad.

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Are the professions even complete at this point? I was looking around in the inscription recipes, and unless I missed something I don’t see any way to make the cards for decks, even though other recipes use the decks as a material so they are obviously meant to still exist.

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I think it depends on the server you’re on. It seems incomplete on the leveling server, but on the max level server meant for profession/dungeon/raid testing they are more rounded.

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Thank you well time and thought. I largely agree with your take.

I do want to add a couple points, specifically on the time and resource investment.

First off, and MOST glaring: RNG

The whole profession is built heavily on RNG.

  • Drop needed to scrap is RNG
  • Scrapping is RNG if you get a recipe
  • IF you learn a recipe, which one is completely RNG.

Layering that much RNG on top of each other essentially guarantees that you wont be able to get what you need in a reasonable time frame. Compared to other professions is takes significantly more time to acquire what you need to start getting value. You are more likely to get non-relevant recipes than what you need. This was a problem in Dragonflight, getting the wrong bracers/helmet schematics first. This design is worse.

The only way around the massive time sink and unreliability issue of the RNG design would be to make scrap so plentiful that you get more RNG rolls. But even then, it would still feel frustrating when you get the wrong items several times in a row. Which to be clear is MORE likely than getting what you need.

Additional to that issue is just the feel of the profession. IMO, engineering should not be random, wild chances. Engineering should feel like building towards what you want. Notes feel like a good idea, in theory. But, the only way they will feel good. in practics, is if they can be targeted. Feel like you are building towards something specific, engineering your way towards it. RNG spam just doesn’t feel like it belongs in engineering.

The second, nearly as big an issue: Delay of value.

Engineering take VASTLY more time and effort before you can make anything that you can use. To use a comparison. I copied an alchemy toon over as well. At about level 71, with little actual farming, I was making potions I could use. Blacksmithing gets recipes from the trainer basically immediately that can be used to level. But skill 15 you are making boots and profession tools both to use and sell, and with minimal resource investment. Engineering is going to take considerable farming and you are unlikely to have anything usable before make level even if you are lucky with the RNG.

Then there is the whole market issue. The only armor Engineers can make for other people is the bracers. Which, like Dragonflight, other professions can both get the recipe significantly easier and make for cheaper. Blacksmiths/leatherworks are going to be selling bracers while engineers are still struggling to even get the recipe.

In short engineering is considerably more effort and time while being far less rewarding. While also being a frustrating RNG chasing design. It is honestly a step down from Dragonflight, which is saying something.

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So I’ve recently started a character on the leveling beta that I took engineering on. How do you even get the pile of rusted scrap to do anything at all with the profession? There is no indication of this. I picked the profession up as soon as I got to Dornogal, I have since finished the first zone, done all the bonus objects, etc and I haven’t seen anything to indicate how to interact with this profession at all. What am I missing?

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The Piles of Scrap are random drops off of mobs and treasure chest.

We think humanoid, but I don’t think anyone is clear on exactly what drops them the best.

Random drop that is slow to gather.
Scrap piles is a random chance of learning a recipe.
What recipe you learn is random.

It is a bad design.

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Yeah I’m not a fan. Seems they need to drastically increase the drop rate. Finally got a couple drops last night after making my comment here. So by level 73 into the 2nd zone, I was able to get my engineering skill to 2. No recipe learned yet.

I prefer it being supported by mining, not farming mobs.

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The other thing that feels really outdated and incomplete is the study a schematic UI.

You see a range of 3 items (although you may have duplicates), with a rough description of the item. Sometimes the description is fairly plain, e.g. it just says you learn the Barrel of Fireworks, no description of what that even is. Is it an Explosives schematic? Nope, it’s a toy. THe only way to actually know that is to have the entire Unused Recipes list memorised, or to exit the window, go back to your profession UI, find the recipe in there.

I wanna say I saw Venting Vambraces up there also with no description, then later on saw a Venting Vambraces that said it was the Plate bracers, and learning it actually learns you the Clanking Cuffs which are the correct Plate bracers, so it’s even more confusing to figure out which is the bug among all the incomplete stuff. There was also a Tinker: Lightning Tether which just fails when you try and learn it.

We’re putting the names of the recipe in here, why not have a tooltip on the name? Not only would it help avoid some confusion with some items, it also means people can visually inspect the recipe costs, whether it would give them a skill up, etc., and more easily make decisions from this UI directly. It certainly seems preferable to having them go back and forth closing different windows.

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That would be a bandage fix. Sure, it would improve things if scrap dropped more, which to even be functionally close to as viable as other professions is probably at least a factor of 10 increase in drop rate. But it would still leave the random chance to get a recipe plus the random type of recipe. Sadly, it is probably the best we can hope for at this point.

I had not anticipated that they would actually screw engineering over worse than they did in Dragonflight.

Completely agree. Like is has been in the past.

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Agreed, here are my 10 chars.

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Engineering has always seemed to be the after thought profession. It’s engineering, unlimited potential held back by limited imagination.

I’ve been engineering on this guy since TBC and I’m seriously considering changing this expansion. I’m just over the lack of imagination and implementation.

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Unique: Prototype(1) is indeed a DISASTER. You should have 1 of EACH prototype if you scrap all.

I like the RNG element, and I like how different engineering is from other professions. Its always been odd and weird, and I like that.

Pile of Rusted Scrap is a more difficult design issue for blizzard developers here. Mobs could be tuned to drop a lot more overall. There are mobs in the Ringing Deeps which can be ‘skinned’ by engineers but don’t yet drop anything. They could be a source later.

If Pile of Rusted Scrap is plentiful, then the entire invention tree is mostly useless. The market will be flooded with tier 1 engineering mats. You’ll just spam for prototypes, into notes, into first craft bonuses, etc.

If Pile of Rusted Scrap stay this rare, then Pilfer Through Parts becomes absolutely mandatory. Anyone who doesn’t rush to Pilfer has effectively soft locked their profession for weeks.

Pilfer is so ridiculously over-powered, but at this point seems so necessary I’m sure what they should do? Maybe just have vastly more recipes gained from reps and dungeon bosses?

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