Endgame in Retail and Classic - Thoughts

I’ll preface this by saying that I’m not a Classic player but I definitely enjoyed it back in the day. I played on the EU at the time, got 4 characters to 60 (priest, lock, hunter and druid), raided MC, BWL, AQ40 and Naxx on that lock and did nightly pvp on the druid. So… definitely got to see all of the features it offered.

And I’ve played ever since, bar a gap in WoD and during patch 8.1.

So…. My point.

I’ve noticed a lot of ‘us vs them’ happening in the forums at the moment, to the level it almost seems like a religious debate.

Classic fans talk about vanilla as if it’s the ‘pure’ form of the game. One unspoilt by terrible, money grabbing decisions Blizzard and Activision have made. It’s described as a real MMO, people talk about community being far stronger and mention how the levelling and gearing are far more rewarding. They also see Retail as ‘far too easy’. A game where everything is handed to the player, mobs are a joke and your character is annoyed rather than challenged by the world.

Retail fans, on the other hand, regard Classic players as folk lost in a haze of nostalgia. They point to archaic artwork, bugs, bad UI and a range of modern conveniences and designs that are absent but expected in today’s gaming environment. They also laugh at the idea that modern wow is easy, when the end game is often brutally punishing. Mythic raiding is almost impossible for the vast majority of raiders and high end mythic + dungeons are infinitely harder to do than any old school versions. You want hard? Retail has hard.

What occurs to me is Blizzard has changed their minds on end game over the years. In Vanilla (and now Classic) the game was largely about levelling. I can’t remember the exact quote, but I recall one developer saying they were surprised when more and more people got to 60 and demanded something to occupy their time. They had some raids planned but had assumed most players would just… wander about, run dungeons etc. So they put more focus on raiding and began to make that THE goal of the game. There are other things to do at max level (arenas and now, mythic instances spring to mind) but the main change was levelling became far less important in their minds. It was an extended tutorial. What mattered was keeping players occupied at Max level.

And this… is probably where the game broke. (Or if not broke… has wobbled seriously over the years). The fact is EVERYONE who plays wow levels. EVERYONE. Its an experience we’ve all done (and done and done…). End game however was never as popular as Blizzard assumed. A lot of people never raided in Vanilla. Most people nowadays don’t do mythic+ or even step foot into normal raids. LFG after all was created to show off instances to players, because so few of the player base ever got to see that content. Blizzard moved away from focusing on an experience 100% of the players experience to one only 10% of them take part in. And that experience is made worse by the difficulty scaling of endgame. To whit - look how few guilds have cleared mythic at the moment. Given the size of the player base, you have an end game tuned to such difficulty that after 2 or so months, only 2400 player in the wold have finished it. Which is… insane. And levelling, the thing everyone does or did, is reduced in difficulty because Blizzard desperately want us to get to end game as quickly as possible. “Don’t bother with those murlocks - just hit 120 where your real adventure will begin!”

(Aside - you also have a situation where due to this desire to focus on raiding and instances rather than world content, said world content isn’t challenging. So the developers add more mobs in the world to at least give us multiple things to loot and kill. Which might work in diablo, but in WoW simply adds to the annoyance. Things constantly add but aren’t a threat, they simply prevent you from moving on to your goal. So mob density = sheer irritation rather than fun)

With that said… what to do?

My hope is the developers take a step back with 9.0 and focus on the gameplay the majority of people spend most of their time in. 100% of us will level and more attention should be spent to how fun this experience is; same with us just running around in the world. We all do it - don’t make it something we just endure. And if they really want us all to raid/instance - that needs to be heavily encouraged. The raids need a better ‘in’ than LFG achieves. And the ranks of difficulty need to be reworked back to an era where those who decided to enjoy that content could be reasonably certain that at some point they’d be able to clear ‘top’ content, not just watch on a stream while method and the like do so. (Perhaps instead of mythic tier, you could simply have a raiding system where players can crank up the difficulty of mobs for better rewards and challenges?)

Anyway - long blurb so will stop for now!

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tl;dr

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Ditto.

I lied. There really should be no Classic VS Retail debate. They are 2 different things and their own entities and I’m just replying to your title because there is no point in debating 2 different things and the wedge that people keep creating.

/10

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I didn’t read more than the first sentence. Or did I? Maybe just the title.

I mean, why discuss your thoughts and jibber jabber about the differences. Just play both games like most of us and enjoy them.

Why the blathering?

ps. okay I remember reading to “I don’t play classic, but…”

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Long story? I wasn’t saying one was better than the other. More interested in why fans of both are angry at the other. And why decisions Blizzard have made to focus on end game rather than levelling have caused problems.

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I read the last part…What to do?

Leave Classic out of retail because as fun as it can be for some most retail players don’t want to go in reverse.

As far as Classic goes, I have no clue and nor do I care, but I can tell you this much, I want nothing about Classic put into Retail. Nothing.

The only people I really see angry are the people playing Classic and it’s been more like a haha in your face type of situation, I can’t imagine how these people go from being sunshine and rainbows to each other in a game to complete spoiled monsters in the forums. Kind of ridiculous, and when someone doesn’t agree with them it’s, oh, you “Retail baby”, well ya, what were you playing before Classic dropped? My retail baby money helped pay to get you Classic.

I just laugh at the irony honestly. No point in arguing and continuing to beat a dead horse.

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I find it interesting how I’ve only ever had the opposite experience. It’s retail people always hating on Classic.

I think people tend to focus on the complainers more the the people that are complementing/helping, so it creates a sense of confirmation bias and they only start hearing the opposite sides objections rather than look at the big picture.

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Honey, you are on a retail forum. What do you expect? This is where all the retail players come to discuss. The GD has always been where we come. We don’t have a special forum designed for us. Of course you come to a retail forum spitting classic, nobody actually cares here. I don’t see people playing retail coming over to the Classic side cramming their logic down your throat.

The obvious question is why the actual freaking heck does it even matter to you what I’m playing and why I like it, why can’t you do you and I’ll do me? Why because I enjoy retail do you gotta have a tantrum and name call like you just started Pre School.

All I ever see anyone from Retail do is point you to the direction of your own forums. “Wrong forum, Classic is that way” and of course when names are getting hurled, someone gonna stick up for themselves.

I’m not coming here to dig through a bunch of blah blah Retail vs Classic BS. Before Classic dropped this wasn’t an issue. I do agree to a point though. It’s just getting old.

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I was with you until about here. I’d say a lot more than 10% have stepped into at least normal raids. That being said, i do think they need to make leveling more interesting, but not at the expense of gameplay or end game.

retail=esport
classic wow=a real mmorpg

those are my thoughts.

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Does this character make you feel better?

Also you haven’t been on the Classic forum long if you don’t think Retail players don’t come to the Classic forum to rip on it…

People in general have a “STOP LIKING WHAT I DON’T LIKE!” attitude. There is a reason that’s been memed…

Another part of human nature I’ve noticed, and this crosses from WoW into forums of other subjects. When people get used posting to one forum, they tend to be hesistant/resistant on being told to go post somewhere else. There is an element of people being resistant in change here I’m sure.

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Pie vs Cake.
French Toast vs. Waffles.
Dog vs. Cat.
Sunny side up vs. Over easy.
Sausage vs. Bacon.
Color vs. Colour.
East Coast Rap vs. West Coast Rap.

These are debates that never will be solved.

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What if after 8.3 there are more players playing classic than retail?

^^ Man… I shouldn’t have titled that ‘Vs’ should I? I wasn’t remotely saying one was better than the other or x is bad.

I was more exploring WHY people dislike one or the other.

My - much quicker TLDR answer was I think in classic the devs focus was on levelling, a thing all of us do. While now they’re focused purely on end game and the expectation everyone will raid or do mythics. So in modern wow those aspects are the challenge, the ‘getting there’ is meant to be burnt through as quickly as possible so players can experience what Blizz perceive as their real content. Levelling is less challenging because it’s not designed to take too long. You’re meant to get past it quickly and on to what they regard as the meat of the game.

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An esport with a tiny audience.

IMO I have next to no interest in Classic. I like modern art and conveniences. But I am interested in why many people are more engaged in the slower levelling experience and regard Retail as too easy.

And it occurred to me levelling simply was a thing we all did. While end game in retail isn’t. The world quests etc are just fluff - the meat is raiding and mythics (and maybe arenas). Which are activities far less of the player base actually do.

Why even waste your time replying if you’re not going to read the post?

Nobody cares if you didn’t read it. Leave.

I don’t even necessarily agree with the OP, just, your attitude is incredibly toxic and contributes literally nothing to a conversation.

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So here is the issues right now the fan base is divided between two groups, those who want a traditional RPG and those who want the looter shooter experience that is retail. So it’s not so much classic vs retail, it’s traditional vs new age.

Retail wow is absolutely a shadow of it’s former self, it’s more akin to what Diablo is now and many people don’t like that because it’s not why they got into wow. Many people got into wow because for the longest time the game played more or less like Warcraft three heros. Stats mattered there was not an endless grind, things were very RPG heavy, quests and dungeons were far more in depth and not handed to you. A lot of the time you actually had to read your quests and think about what you were doing. Builds were far more customizable and flexible like a traditional RPG was, you could get away with a lot more off the wall builds like warrior 2 hand tanking.

The other camp is the Diablo 3 Esq paly styale were it’s very fast paced, loots drops all over the place and there is a major RNG factor to it. These are two different play styles of games.

The classic camp is upset because their game is turning into something they don’t want and or like, the retail camp is upset because they are being told they are wrong for liking it. Both sides have very real reasons to be upset at one another.

Personally I’m in the classic camp and hate retail with a passion, but I’m not gonna say your wrong. Now is there a happy middle ground? Idk maybe. But if anything classic has drug the skeletons outta the closet and with a clear side by side comparison the 2 games are so far removed from one another in game play and story telling, it’s only the same in name at this point and clear to see why the 2 camps think and feel the way they do

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Because this subsection of the forums is called General DISCUSSION. If you aren’t going to read the post or join the discussion, then don’t bother replying to it.

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Well,right now I could go play retail,kill monsters,help lowbies with Elites,save the world. Or I can go play classic and autoattack some goretusk. 2 different styles.Sometimes I want to play while tabbing out constantly.Sometimes I want to pay attention and hunt rares.So both have their place.