I don’t think heroic raiders should get the same gear as Mythic raiders. I don’t think M+ 0’s should get the same gear as M+ 20’s that said I think the power span between gear types from the lowest to the highest should be very small. I do like the idea that Mythic/Gladiator gear has more flair (In the past anyway).
PvP gearing is it’s own thing. I think PvP gear all modes should cap at the same level but the time in which you acquire gear should be much faster for more intense modes like arena. Ranked play should be for titles and fame not superior gear. I’m not a fan of the “rich get richer” concept in games…we already have an overdose of that in RL.
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I mean if we are talking pvp gear as a side, blizzard has it 100% backwards, pvp gear should, in rated pvp content ie arenas and rated BGs be at a set fixed ilvl and no matter your rank it never changes, and when you rank up you can upgrade your pvp gear to be a higher ilvl in random pvp content like random BGs and open world pvp and pve.
Because blizzards current system pvp was hands down one of the best ways to gear in shadow lands because it had the most player agency attached to it.
My opinion is that raiding in all its forms should be the highest rewarded gearing path in the game which it currently is not as it takes the most effort to get people together to do vs other content in the game. But with mytic+ that basically killed the normal raiding scene, becuase normal raids were pointless at that point because you could get normal raid level gear from mid level mythics which were a LOT easier to get 5 people together to bang those out.
All of those things again, are not solo content, even getting conquest gear by getting wins in random BGS is not really solo content, you are still having to participate with other players.
I actually don’t think it killed the normal casual raiding scene, hear me out. These people have aotc as an end goal, these guilds are going to be doing normal anyway.
Using s4 as an example of gearing progression I feel like isn’t really fair because we had uncapped valor, which completely changed up how you gear your character. But normal bosses are valuable in DF, for those aotc end goal guilds.
Think about the people that are doing normal raiding, they’re casual players, they probably won’t be pushing m+ omega hard to get gear upgrades even though they can, they just log into raid, and normal loot is perfectly fine with them. they have aotc as an end goal.
Although I know it’s crazy for someone who plays the game like me to believe, there’s people out there that are fine with not having BiS from M+. And just raid to raid. And DF really did help with that.
I don’t even know if I’ll step into normal when the raid comes out, but again I’m not omega casual. So I can understand why people would want to normal raid and value the gear, especially with higher ilvl from later bosses even though it doesn’t matter to me.
No im using every season from shadowlands as an example of that. And its why i say pvp was the best gearing method because it gave you a LOT of player agency that the other methods did not. Like with conquest i could save up and by the items i needed the most rather then being at the mercy of RNG.
Not even casual players were really doing normal because you again, out paced it so quickly that no one really bothered doing it. You can out gear normal raid by hitting i think it was 1200 rating in pvp. On top of that the big issue with raiding is that you only get 1 shot a week at loot per boss vs banging out M+ which have no limt to how many you can do, save for your own sanity.
So the group of players who “want to raid just to see it” Will end up doing LFR, anyone who wanted to raid for gear, would raid heroic.
Even a lot of people who are “casually” raiding are just skipping normal because the effort to do a raid, like getting everyone together, is not worth the pitiful reward that normal gives.
You overvalue an aspect of the game that has nothing to do with the game itself. Yes, Blizzard counts on “Nerd Rangling” as a difficulty measure but that’s a crutch for them it shouldn’t be a measure of difficulty. Difficulty should be based on pushing your skills to the limit of what is allowed within the confines of the game world… Not how much you can tolerate other players without losing your mind on someone in Discord…
The gear from end raid bosses outvalue the gear from m+. Gearing purely thru raiding will never be efficient, there’s no way to expect this. There’s more loot on m+ table, which means for off-tier pieces you want to get your BiS stats on your gear. Since m+ has a larger loot table, you have a better chance at getting an off-tier item that is also, BiS stats. it will ALWAYS be ahead of raiding. There is no fix to this.
Raid loot trinkets / weapons however, beat out m+ gear besides maybe a few items. And this is especially the case with higher end loot. And actually - you couldn’t get 304 gear except for your vault which was complete RNG this season, so you had to raid to effectively do M+ at a high level.
When you look at how people acquire gear, raiding can’t and will never be the most efficient path of gearing as long as M+ is a thing, because people who minmax gear and always search for BiS lists have a bigger pool to pull from with M+.
Well thats the other thing though, I dont think wow should be pushed into a difficult game. which is something that they have been doing since legion onward, they have been trying to make wow “Difficult” but here is the god honest truth.
Wow was, and never should have been, made difficult. wow was just tedious and time consuming. This was proven to us with classic, were guilds would just face melt entire raids and the hardest part was just getting people together. This is why i say classic had the best gearing path, because it was primarily effort put in resulting in rewards. Like crafting, if you put in the time and effort to craft you were rewarded, if you put in the time and effort to raid, you were rewarded, anymore thats not the case. Any more in wow its, log in, do your chores, get your scratcher card for the end of the week to see if RNG reward you.
Effort no longer = reward in wow. Any more effort = chance at reward and that feels really bad.
I would disagree because it was very effective up until BFA, which is when they went HARD into M+ SL they made it horrible because SL reduced raid loot drop rate, AND they took away the reroll token. So you had raiding which already had the slowest and lowest progression of gearing, and they made it worse.
And the thing is, i would not have a problem if raiding was not THE best gearing method. My issue is that raiding is so sub par for gearing outside of specific niche items that its not worth doing. I think that if the current gearing path is, grind out m+ to get all the actual gear you need, then we do raiding for a handful of specific trinkets and weapons. I dont think thats a very good system, i think that undermines the entire point of raiding. Im not asking raiding to be the best, im asking it to be at least competitive as a gearing method.
It is completely competitive for people who don’t do m+ or have absolutely no interest in pushing anything higher than a +5 key. Normal end boss trinkets / weapons will be good for those heroic prog guilds.
Comparing myself to someone who is casually playing is just a completely different gearing experience. I can do a +15 at 250 ilvl, it’s impossible for raiding to ever be efficient for me. Literally no matter what blizzard puts in the game, m+ will always be the most efficient for me. But other people, who aren’t a hardcore player, will still for sure enjoy the power that normal loot gives from raid.
If your goal is just to get say full norml ilvl raid gear. Your best way of doing that, is not stepping foot in a normal raid and just grinding out low/midlevel keys.
Thats my issue with it, is that raiding is so far behind in terms of getting gear over other methods.
I agree that raiding has been made infective because of M+ And i thin thats an issue. Because im of the camp that Raiding should be rewarding the best gear in the game even better then M+ because currently M+ is nothing to what it was originally intended as.
M+ originally was meant to be an alternative gearing path for people who could not raid, but like you said, its now THE way to get gear.
I dunno I can’t like think that raiding is that much worse when I’m forced to raid for M+ specifically. It goes both ways.
The most important thing of this whole conversation is that these heroic end goal guilds will like the end boss loot from normals if it was anything similar to SL because the end boss trinkets and weps were so good.
You can’t fix this m+ issue because there’s also, a ton of people who only do m+ and would prefer to only gear from m+. It should be competitive, I agree.
But I think for the people where normal gear actually matters, the gear is perfectly balanced from M+ and raiding. But that’s just me. They’ll get enough gear from raid to be able to clear heroic or whatever their end goal is. End boss trinkets and weapons/tier pieces matter a lot more than people think.
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Not if the players added are solo players.
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M+ was a Pandoras box situation. Once they opened it up to what it is now, there is no closing it.
Any more though i think really thye should just remove normal raid, and just call heroic level raid normal and then have mythic because of how quickly you can out pace normal raiding i think really is my point.
Like if they kept M+ as it currently is, but increased the drop rates of then normal raids(What heroic raids are now) and provided reroll tokens, i think the raiding gearing path would be a a lot more optimal and at least viable when going up against M+
Because if you think about it, if you have a player that raids and a player that does only M+ in a single week that raider will only get like 10 shots at loot with a garuntee at the end of the week. That M+ raiding will get a LOT more shot at loot in a single day then taht raider will get the entire week. And think of it this way, whats faster clearing a full raid or clearing 10 5+ keys?
Again not asking gear to be handed out, im just looking for proper reward out for effort put in when it comes to raiding.
Everybody playin’ nice up in here? I have trained sloths for any trouble makers… 
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They’ll unleash slothery upon evil doers.
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They’ll make them do evil… Slower?
I’m not actually sure. Who knows what dastardly tactics the Sloths have in their arsenal. But I know their wrath will be fearsome and terrible!
Tell me, what currency do you have to grind in order to participate in dungeons or raids?
I wonder if the evil doers will be able to hold a proper cower until the sloths get there. It might be awhile.
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