End the war on solo gameplay in WoW

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

Power progression is there, but it’s in the content you refuse to do… that is YOUR PROBLEM. No one elses…

It’s the devs’ problem for refusing to make progression accessible outside of organized groups (due to these new elitist principles that never existed in the game before Ion took charge), and ultimately it will be your problem, too, if the game keeps hemorrhaging players and drastic changes become necessary. Are elitist design principles worth more to you than WoW sticking to some semblance of its content model?

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

Torghast isn’t about gear and never was… goes back to you refusing to do any higher end content and expecting to get that level of gear. This is 100% your issue.

Torghast did drop placeholder gear in its initial testing phases, and devs directly stated that Torghast was the spiritual successor to Horrific Visions, which dropped gear on live. I bought this expansion assuming that Torghast would be decent content.

Torghast being a mandatory chore for hardcore players while not like providing progression for the solo players that wanted to do it is 100% a development issue.

Ultimately, devs showed that they would rather scrap gameplay features completely then allow solo progression through them.

@Gwennedl-grobbulus

If someone spends hours on hard content to obtain gear… why should someone who is going through AFK EASY content get the same gear?

Good thing I never said that easier content should provide the same gear as harder content.

And by the way, thanks for the info! I didn’t realize that world quests, Torghast, and other solo content would auto-complete for me if I went AFK!

@Sambouki-malganis

I think that in an effort to make WoW accessible to bad players (an incredibly small minority of players on the whole) people who lack the basic fundamentals of MMO gameplay-Blizzard made the game worse over the years in a lot of ways regarding community interactions.

News flash:
By your standards, the average gamer and average WoW player is actually bad. Just do Heroic dungeons, LFR, unrated BGs, or any queued content and you will see people not interrupting or not following basic mechanics.

Other news flash:
The requirement to manually form a group to do content is a huge barrier to entry for most WoW players. That’s why LFR participation rates are so much higher than those for Normal+ raiding, and unrated BG participation rates are so much higher than those for rated BGs, for example.

But if this game wants to top 10 million players again outside of an expansion launch, it needs to accommodate max-level progression for the general masses instead of excluding them for the sake of elitism.

@Sambouki-malganis

No. We just play the game in a way that makes sense for the rewards we want.

If you don’t like dungeon finder, raid finder, and open world content, then don’t do them. The option is always there for you to make your own groups. The presence of accessible content does not threaten you in any way other than wounding your ego.

@Sambouki-malganis

There is no “war on solo players.”

Going from Legion/BfA to SL, there was certainly a design shift made to no longer allow solo or casual progression past a certain level. DF seems to be a continuation of SL rather than the days of Legion/BfA.

@Sambouki-malganis

Imagine blasting Fromsoftware because Elden Ring doesn’t have guns and cars, but because you paid for the game you should be able to demand the existence of these things that make absolutely no sense being in Elden Ring.

I’m asking for progression systems like actual Valor that used to be in WoW, not for story elements that don’t belong.

@Sambouki-malganis

but you’re not presenting anything other than a very well thought out “trust me bro” for an argument.

It’s OK if you don’t trust me, but I hope that you aren’t too deluded to trust the industry and community as a whole.

Blizzard is never going to admit how low subs have gotten, but they do publish combined MAUs for all their titles.

Data from any third-party source is also going to point to a decline in WoW over time.

On the contrary, what makes you think things aren’t bad? Was the faction divide removed and were auction houses partially merged just because Blizzard wanted to be nice all of a sudden?

There will be a huge spike in subs after DF is released, but if solo players have nothing worthwhile to do, they will leave the game again in a month or two.

@Sambouki-malganis

WoW has been cheapened enough over the years in the name of accommodation of players who don’t like MMOs. It needs to stop

Players can like MMOs but not the sweaty group instanced content. Design principles need to stop favoring only the top players.

[Wraathh-stormrage]

You don’t “need” the recommended ilvl gear for the Torghast layers. Due to anima powers they can be done at a much lower ilvls. When Layer 12 came out (rec 250-ish ilvl) people were doing them at ilvl 200. I think the suggested/recommended ilvl is doing it without anima powers.

[Gwennedl-grobbulus]

@Eleusia-myzrael

It’s the devs’ problem for refusing to make progression accessible outside of organized groups (due to these new elitist principles that never existed in the game before Ion took charge), and ultimately it will be your problem, too, if the game keeps hemorrhaging players and drastic changes become necessary. Are elitist design principles worth more to you than WoW sticking to some semblance of its content model?

Elitest? Lol. You want it to be their issue, because you don’t want to do their content… this is 100% YOUR issue and not theirs. There is plenty of content to do and you wanna gimp yourself and then complain about it… begging for a participation trophy.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Torghast did drop placeholder gear in its initial testing phases, and devs directly stated that Torghast was the spiritual successor to Horrific Visions, which dropped gear on live. I bought this expansion assuming that Torghast would be decent content.

Keywords testing phase.

@Eleusia-myzrael

Torghast being a mandatory chore for hardcore players while not like providing progression for the solo players that wanted to do it is 100% a development issue.

It’s not mandatory in any way… you can get legendries without ever stepping in Torghast, with minimal effort… right up your alley!

@Eleusia-myzrael

Good thing I never said that easier content should provide the same gear as harder content.

And by the way, thanks for the info! I didn’t realize that world quests, Torghast, and other solo content would auto-complete for me if I went AFK!

Always glad to drop knowledge on people who don’t know.

[Antiman-bloodhoof]

@Wraathh-stormrage

I think the suggested/recommended ilvl is doing it without anima powers.

Or if RNG is against you and the powers are, well, (insert explicative) for your class/spec. That and the ilvl that any class/spec can reasonably be expected to complete it well enough to unlock the next layer/bonus.

[Sìobhan-alexstrasza]

Why do people keep saying solo players just want things handed to them? Content can be a challenge without requiring 4-9 other people with them. They could totally add solo encounters with difficult mechanics that require knowing your class that reward worthwhile gear.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Sìobhan-alexstrasza

They could totally add solo encounters with difficult mechanics that require knowing your class that reward worthwhile gear.

Definitely.

But as part of the war on solo players, recent devs have this new policy of refusing to allow soloable content to award gear. I think this is ultimately why Torghast did not drop any gear.

Even the best open world gear in DF has been described by devs as coming from elite zones where you are encouraged to group up.

Grouping up just to do world quests should be an option and not a requirement.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Sìobhan-alexstrasza

They could totally add solo encounters with difficult mechanics that require knowing your class that reward worthwhile gear.

Now I want them to do that, make it difficult, and STICK TO THEIR GUNS AND NOT NERF IT

Don’t let it be a repeat of release torghast, where it was hard, then people complained and it got nerfed into being trivially easy.

[Sarama-firetree]

@Eleusia-myzrael

due to these new elitist principles that never existed in the game before Ion took charge

You mean like from day 1 where you needed a 40 man group or 4 guys playing AV in rotating 8 hour shifts to get epic geared?

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Sarama-firetree

You mean like from day 1 where you needed a 40 man group or 4 guys playing AV in rotating 8 hour shifts to get epic geared?

Day 1 was solo questing for the typical player.

Quests awarded gear upgrades. At level 10 and beyond, each level awarded you a talent choice.

Including professions and exploration, the early expacs were easily hundreds of hours’ worth of meaningful solo progression.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

If we are going to be technical, day one of a player hitting level 60 in vanilla. your options for gear were dungeons with no dungeon finder, battlegrounds, or molten core with no LFR.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

If we are going to be technical, day one of a player hitting level 60 in vanilla.

Many players took months to reach level 60 or never reached it at all on all the toons that they started leveling.

The bulk of Vanilla content was the leveling experience, not the endgame that was thrown together at the last minute.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

And the gain gear by solo questing while leveling up is the same base idea then as it is now. We just happen to do both way faster.

[Thordrynn-grobbulus]

However, ZG did arrive later. And the raids were 40 man so more players could join a raid. The raids were more forgiving and when you got a piece from MC, you got the best piece - meaning there wanst another two tiers of difficulty above what you were currently raiding.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

@Thordrynn-grobbulus

And the raids were 40 man so more players could join a raid

And now players are complaining that 20 is too many.

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

And the gain gear by solo questing while leveling up is the same base idea then as it is now. We just happen to do both way faster

This only suggests that my theory about solo-minder players and sub numbers is correct.

During the older expansions, solo players spent months just leveling up. As a result, the game kept accumulating subs as time went on, even as expansions dragged on. Endgame progression was primarily raiding, yes, but raids were not that demanding if you were in a good, reasonable guild.

But starting in Cataclysm, the leveling experience was cheapened and the queued and open world endgame became far less solo friendly. This is when we started seeing expansion launches bringing in a rush of subs that quickly started dropping until the next expansion launched. People would level up but soon quit because they had no more meaningful solo progression.

The Shadowlands leveling experience itself was the worst because you didn’t even gain talent choices over the 10 levels, and your secondary stat ratings just went down. Leveling was just a chore to get you to endgame. Then Shadowlands endgame was the least solo-friendly endgame this game has ever seen, in terms of power progression.

No wonder SL box sales were through the roof but sub numbers hit their lowest point ever.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

That doesn’t explain the raiding population also being down in retail. That doesn’t explain how classic/tbc/wrath had subs keep going up, even though leveling took months instead of the 2 years that they were out for.

[Thordrynn-grobbulus]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

And now players are complaining that 20 is too many.

I dont even consider 20 to be a raid. MMOs are supposed to be about more players, not less. BAH!

[Eleusia-myzrael]

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

That doesn’t explain the raiding population also being down in retail.

In terms of sheer numbers of raid boss kills, the solo players that bought the expac but quit soon after reaching max level won’t even have a chance of contributing to the raiding population.

In terms of proportion of active players raiding, the solo-minded players that stayed on after max level are more likely to gear up through the open world, unrated PvP, LFR, or even M+ over pre-organized raiding.

The fact that Normal+ raiding metrics are so low in terms of both sheer numbers and portion of the population shows that most active players just don’t want to raid these days, whether they prefer solo gameplay or not.

As a general trend, group sizes are getting smaller. 40-man raids were a thing but became obsolete. More players did 10-mans than 25-mans when both were available, even for slightly inferior rewards. Now more people are doing 5-man M+ than 10+man raiding, even for slightly interior rewards.

Solo progression would be the most popular choice of all if offered, even for slightly inferior rewards. I know many group content players that preferred to solo Horrific Visions or Torghast, because they could, for example.

@Cäpslöck-proudmoore

That doesn’t explain how classic/tbc/wrath had subs keep going up, even though leveling took months instead of the 2 years that they were out for.

Subs would keep going up throughout each expansion because not only would you have solo and casual players staying on for longer for the leveling progression experience (than they would for SL for example), but because new players were coming in and adding to the count.

Part of this was because the game was new and it took a few years for gamers to find out about it, and part of this was because the base game (leveling experience) was well known to be more solo-friendly than other MMOs where solo players hit a wall during the leveling experience itself.

WoW is always successful in bringing back millions of former players for each expansion launch, but it can’t retain them because the solo progression experience is soon over.

WoW also does a very poor job of drawing in new players because it has a bad reputation these days for not providing a solo progression experience.

[Psycha-moon-guard]

Which is how it should be…

Work for gear and feel rewarded when going back in the world and 1-2 hit on level mobs as a dps.

Right now you do a couple 15’s and go back to world quests and yes you kill stuff quick but it doesnt feel rewarding when you do.

[Cäpslöck-proudmoore]

So far I’m seeing OP’s argument change into “they need to slow down leveling again” which is both new and unexpected